I already suggested you read the thread in its entirety and the predecessor thread. I even provided a link to where Bob Harris first appeared arguing the same points you're arguing now.
While just a few posts ago, you were citing the witnesses and telling us how their testimony about the shots they heard leads inexorably to one conclusion, now you're saying the witnesses aren't reliable and they actually heard a lot more shots than they reported.
Doesn't that call into question your prior posts on this subject?
No? The witnesses statements you pointed out aren't incompatible with the theory i subscribe to. I believe that the theory i subscribe to best matches the mass of the witnesses statements.
At the point they concluded that, they were wedded to the acoustic evidence, and were trying to shoehorn three shots from Oswald into what the acoustic evidence supposedly indicated. Of course, the acoustic evidence was later exposed as nonsense, because the scientists involved (BB&N and W&A) were looking at the wrong portion of the tape...about one minute after the shots were fired.
Calvin S. McCamy, spokesman for the HSCA photographic panel, testimony on 9/12/78 (describing Kennedy before he goes behind the sign):
"
There is considerable blurring at this point. The President's arm is up in a waving position. His head is still toward the right. At this point there is considerable blur, and by here, it appears as though his head is beginning to turn quite rapidly to the left. His head is now to the left. That is only one-eighteenth of a second from one frame to the next. He continues to look toward the left. One barely sees his right ear toward the camera. It is quite clear he is here now looking directly at his wife. He and his wife can be seen looking at one another in this sequence. He now goes behind the sign, and only a fraction of a second later we see his hands moving upward. He has a gasping expression. His hands are in a classic position of a person who has been startled. He now begins to raise his arms into what I would call a defensive position. He may be clutching at the throat wound."
Some of the HSCA photographic panel's findings, listed in the HSCA 12 volumes:
(61) The Zapruder film was studied with care at each of the Panel's conferences..At the final conference, which took place in July 1978, the film was closely scrutinized by 20 photographic scientists who were either members of the Panel or contractors responsible for much of the committee's laboratory work (i.e. photographic enhancement, restoration, etc.).
(64) By a vote of 12 to 5, the Panel determined that President Kennedy first showed a reaction to some severe external stimulus by Zapruder frame 207, as he is seen going behind a sign that obstructed Zapruder's view.
(65) By a vote of 11 to 3, the Panel determined that Governor Connally first showed a reaction to some severe external stimulus by Zapruder frame 224, virtually immediately after he is seen emerging from behind the sign that obstructed Zapruder's view.
(70) At approximately Zapruder frame 200 , Kennedy's movements suddenly freeze; his right hand abruptly stops in the midst of a waving motion and his head moves rapidly from right to his left in the direction of his wife. Based on these movements, it appears that by the time the President goes behind the sign at frame 207 he is evidencing some kind of reaction to a severe external stimulus.
There is significant expert consensus that had nothing to do with the dictabelt evidence.
JFK and Connally were struck by the same missile. Both the WC and the HSCA concluded that. If you differ, explain what happened in your scenario to each bullet, and where the shooters were, and provide the evidence for each. I'd love to hear it.
The WC lied and said Kennedy's back wound was on his neck. The HSCA not only falsely concluded that the single bullet theory happened at ~Z190, but also concluded that Kennedy would have to be significantly leaning over for it to happen (which is not seen on the Zapruder film at Z224). Some people at the jfk forums are talking about creating a 3D recreation of Dealey Plaza that perfectly fits the photographic evidence (while making all of their data public, not limited to a few clips off of a propaganda TV program like Dale Meyers). If that happens, I'll see where that goes.
If there was a first missed shot around Z160, there would be witnesses who said "after that first loud shot, I saw Kennedy continue to smile and wave like nothing happened". Nobody remembered that happening.
Or if he was struck by the second shot fired, and his body was overwhelmed by the sensation of being shot through the trunk, so much so that he simply didn't recall or didn't hear the second shot whatsoever, because his nervous system was overwhelmed at that point. The frames he picked are simply about a third of a second after he was actually struck.
There almost certainly was no first shot before Z190-224
I was pointing out the conflicts between your putative scenario and a witness selected at random. We can continue this for all your witnesses, if you wish.
Okay. How about Roy Kellerman?
11/22/63 FBI interview: “he advised he heard a shot and immediately turned around, looking past Governor Connally…to the President.
He observed the President slump forward and heard him say “Get me to a hospital.” Mr. Kellerman then heard Mrs. Kennedy say “Oh, no!” as the President leaned towards her…
He stated he distinctly heard three shots. He advised he did not see the Governor get hit, nor did he observe the second bullet hit the President.”
11/27/63 FBI interview: “Towards the end of town, the vehicle came to a sharp right turn in the street. Few people were on either side at this time. In a matter of a block, the road veered to the left. There were extremely few people on either side of the road at this point. The vehicle was still going at the normal speed which Kellerman estimated to be approximately 15 miles per hour...Kellerman advised he does not recall passing the Texas State Book Depository Building. He advised the vehicle appeared to be going down a small decline at which time everybody in the car was seated. Kellerman said he heard a noise like a firecracker...Upon hearing a noise like a firecracker, he distinctly and positively heard the President say “My God, I’ve been hit.”
Kellerman advised he immediately turned his head to the left rear and almost instantaneously heard two additional shots. Upon turning his head to his left, he observed President Kennedy with his left hand in back of him appearing to be reaching to a point on his right shoulder. The President fell on Mrs. Kennedy’s lap. She stated, “My God, what are they doing to you?” Governor Connally never said a word.”
3/9/64 Warren Commission: “As we turned off Houston onto Elm and made the short little dip to the left going down grade, as I said, we were away from the buildings, and where
there was a sign on the side of the road which I don’t recall what it was and what it said, but we no more than passed that and you are out in the open, and there is a report like a firecracker, pop…as I turned my head to the right to view whatever it was or see whatever it was, I heard a voice from the back seat and I firmly believe it was the President’s 'My God! I am hit!,' and
I turned around and he has got his hands up there like this (he put his hands up to his neck)…So, in the same motion I come right back and grabbed the speaker and said to the driver, 'Let’s get out of here, we are hit!,' and grabbed the mike and I said, 'Lawson, this is Kellerman… We are hit; get us to the hospital immediately.'
Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shells come into the car.” (When asked about his recollection of Kennedy speaking out) "This noise which I attribute as a firecracker, when this occurred and I am in the process of determining where it comes because I am sure it came off my right rear somewhere; the voice broke in right then" (When asked if he heard Mrs. Kennedy say anything) "after the flurry of shots, I recall her saying, 'What are they doing to you?'" (When asked how long the shooting lasted, in seconds) "Three or four"
(When asked how many shots were in the flurry) "I am going to say two, and it was like a double bang--bang, bang." (When asked again if this meant there were two shots after the first noise) “Yes, sir; yes, sir, at least.” (When asked the timespan between the first shot and the flurry) “I will estimate 5 seconds, if that.” (When asked to describe the second and third shots) “You have heard the sound barrier, of a plane breaking the sound barrier, bang, bang? That is it.” (When asked at what point Greer accelerated the limousine) “
Our car accelerated immediately on the time—at the time—this flurry of shots came into it…Between the second and third shot.”
I'm sorry, did you exclude all FBI witness reports on that basis, or is this just an after-the-fact criticism of what he's reported to have said?
I'm guilty of quoting FBI summaries of witnesses that closely describe how I think it happened, but the one your quoted is particularly vague, to the point where I'm wondering if that witness was just misquoted.
And your criticism of James Altgens testimony is what, precisely?
Nothing. He described two shots, and it probably sounded like two shots where he was standing.
Where did I say anything of the sort? Please don't put words in my mouth.
So we agree that the combined recollections of ~300 witnesses can paint a clear picture of what happened. Cool.
See the discussion prior to your arrival. It might help. Also, I would also caution you to not put words in the witnesses mouths either. Altgens said nothing about shots at Z190-224 nor 313. That is your opinion of what he saw and heard. So make it clear in the future when you're claiming a witness said something, versus when you're interpreting their statement to fit your scenario.
I am assigning Zapruder frames to what it seems like the witnesses are obviously describing. When a witness says something like "I heard the first shot, and saw Kennedy slump and raise his arms", they are obviously describing a shot at Z190-224.
I think the possibility of a shot before Z155 or so is extremely remote.
It is extremely remote. There is almost no evidence for any shot before Z190-224.
