Paul Bethke vs the 613 Mitzvot

[Slowvehicle]

How come you are so unwisely insulting---the quote comes from the Complete Jewish Bible
So those people who are affiliated with the Hebrew language must know what they are doing?
If you had any insight you will see clearly that the Psalm is directed at the judges of Israel, who were corrupting justice.

It is not "unwisely insulting" to point out to you that your common practice is to decide what a passage "must mean", then make it fit in with what you claim your "scriptures" actually say.

Just look at your misuses of "elohim", or at your carelessness with "adonai your elohim".

You distort your own "scriptures" to suit your opinions...

 

[Paul Bethke]

It is not "unwisely insulting" to point out to you that your common practice is to decide what a passage "must mean", then make it fit in with what you claim your "scriptures" actually say.

Just look at your misuses of "elohim", or at your carelessness with "adonai your elohim".

You distort your own "scriptures" to suit your opinions...

You are talking drivel—I do not distort the Scriptures, it is you who has no understanding of the meaning of the application of the Scriptures.

The Scripture can only be viewed as a whole, so therefore you are ignorant of the fact, that no one can distort the Scriptures.

The God of Israel is known by many names—so I use the name Yahweh to make sure that the God of Israel is the one in discussion---there were many so called gods that man invented which were not real gods.

So to use Adonai and Elohim, would require what one understands what is being conveyed.

 

[Craig B]

How come you are so unwisely insulting---the quote comes from the Complete Jewish Bible
So those people who are affiliated with the Hebrew language must know what they are doing?
If you had any insight you will see clearly that the Psalm is directed at the judges of Israel, who were corrupting justice.

Jewish translations of the Bible often avoid describing anything as "gods" even if the original Hebrew text does that.

Look here as we have seen already. NIV and the Jewish Publication Society 1917 both use a mitigation or periphrasis for "gods"; but "gods" is what the Hebrew text says, and the other versions reflect that, and translate it faithfully.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Jewish translations of the Bible often avoid describing anything as "gods" even if the original Hebrew text does that.

Look here as we have seen already. NIV and the Jewish Publication Society 1917 both use a mitigation or periphrasis for "gods"; but "gods" is what the Hebrew text says, and the other versions reflect that, and translate it faithfully.

But when you look at the context of the Psalm you will notice that the inference is directed at the rulers or judges who were unjust in their dealing with their fellow Jews.

But the JSP, uses it as such--Psa 82:1 A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of God; in the midst of the judges He judgeth: (JSP)

But what is the purpose, if not to determine if there are any other deities besides Yahweh?

 

[Slowvehicle]

You are talking drivel—I do not distort the Scriptures, it is you who has no understanding of the meaning of the application of the Scriptures.

The fact that reality does not conform with your distortions of your own "scriptures" does not make pointing that fact out "drivel". SHall we address ebing "unwisely insulting"?

The Scripture can only be viewed as a whole, so therefore you are ignorant of the fact, that no one can distort the Scriptures.

Right. What your "scriptures" actually say must be made to serve, what you want them to mean.

The God of Israel is known by many names—so I use the name Yahweh to make sure that the God of Israel is the one in discussion---there were many so called gods that man invented which were not real gods.

So to use Adonai and Elohim, would require what one understands what is being conveyed.

The fact that you do not understand the foramtion, "adonai", and why to use it, makes my point for me. Thanks.

 

[Craig B]

But when you look at the context of the Psalm you will notice that the inference is directed at the rulers or judges who were unjust in their dealing with their fellow Jews.

But the JSP, uses it as such--Psa 82:1 A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of God; in the midst of the judges He judgeth: (JSP)

But what is the purpose, if not to determine if there are any other deities besides Yahweh?

Look at this. It makes sense if addressed to gods, but not men.

6 I have said, Ye are gods;
and all of you are children of the most High.
7 But ye shall die like men,
and fall like one of the princes.​

 

[Slowvehicle]

But when you look at the context of the Psalm you will notice that the inference is directed at the rulers or judges who were unjust in their dealing with their fellow Jews.

That may be the "inference" your presuppositions lead you to need to make--but it is not supported by the plain Hebrew text. אלהים means "gods" (NOT "judges", which is a different word: שפטי.

But the JSP, uses it as such--Psa 82:1 A Psalm of Asaph. God standeth in the congregation of God; in the midst of the judges He judgeth: (JSP)

You really ought to check out the Masoretic text. (Hint: a different word is used for "judge" and " 'god' ", demonstrating that your inference does not conform to the text. This, as I have said, the the danger of depending upon interpretations, rather than the actual text of your "scriptures".

But what is the purpose, if not to determine if there are any other deities besides Yahweh?

Which is why the actual text uses a different word for "deities" and "judges" (see above).

 

[JayUtah]

That may be the "inference" your presuppositions lead you to need to make--but it is not supported by the plain Hebrew text. אלהים means "gods" (NOT "judges"...)

There is no linguistic wiggle room. There is no correct rationale for translating אלהים as "judges." אלהים means "gods."

 

[Slowvehicle]

There is no linguistic wiggle room. There is no correct rationale for translating אלהים as "judges." אלהים means "gods."

Exactly: the word for judge is שפט. Not the same at all...

 

[Paul Bethke]

Exactly: the word for judge is שפט. Not the same at all...

It still does not mean that Yahweh was addressing man made gods that is ludicrous.

Isa 44:16,7 Half of the wood he burns in the fire; over it he prepares his meal, he roasts his meat and eats his fill. He also warms himself and says, "Ah! I am warm; I see the fire."
From the rest he makes a god, his idol; he bows down to it and worships. He prays to it and says, "Save me; you are my god."

You must show some intelligence when insight is required—men created their own gods, which were not gods, so why would Yahweh address man made idols?

 

[Slowvehicle]

It still does not mean that Yahweh was addressing man made gods that is ludicrous.

I agree that the idea of any 'god' (even if you make free to misuse the term "Adonai") is, in fact, ludicrous.

On the other hand, all 'gods' are "man made gods[sic]", so it is a moot point.

Be that as it may, when you pretend that you can infer a "meaning" that is not present in the text, so that you can pretend support for your interpretations that are manifestly contrary to the meaning of the text, you do err.

Isa 44:16,7 Half of the wood he burns in the fire; over it he prepares his meal, he roasts his meat and eats his fill. He also warms himself and says, "Ah! I am warm; I see the fire."
From the rest he makes a god, his idol; he bows down to it and worships. He prays to it and says, "Save me; you are my god."

You must show some intelligence when insight is required—men created their own gods, which were not gods, so why would Yahweh address man made idols?

Given your propensity for declaring abject and demonstrable falsehoods about your "scriptures", I find your assessment of whether or not I am showing "intelligence" to be risible. Deal with the actual text, without manipulation or dishonest inference; until then, you have much sweeping of your own floors to do.

 

[Craig B]

It still does not mean that Yahweh was addressing man made gods that is ludicrous ...

You must show some intelligence when insight is required—men created their own gods, which were not gods, so why would Yahweh address man made idols?

You as a monotheist believe all but one of the gods are man made. I, as an atheist, believe even that one to be man made as well.

But in ancient times people, including the ancestors of the Jews, believed in lots of gods. The Israelites believed that the other gods were real. That's why they were told not to worship these gods, because their own god would be angry. He is made to say in Deuteronomy 5:7 "Thou shalt have none other gods before me". Not "there are no gods except me".

It is only from the late part of Isaiah onwards that he claims to be the only god. And that is said in relation to Cyrus King of Persia. The Jews may have got the one God idea from the Persians, because an early form of monotheism was invented there very long ago. It is called Zoroastrianism, and it still exists.

So in the days of the Psalms, the Israelites believed that there were different gods for different nations, but of course they believed their own god was Boss God. And that's what the psalm is about. The Israelite god is judging the other gods.

 

[Paul Bethke]

I agree that the idea of any 'god' (even if you make free to misuse the term "Adonai") is, in fact, ludicrous.

On the other hand, all 'gods' are "man made gods[sic]", so it is a moot point.

Be that as it may, when you pretend that you can infer a "meaning" that is not present in the text, so that you can pretend support for your interpretations that are manifestly contrary to the meaning of the text, you do err.
Given your propensity for declaring abject and demonstrable falsehoods about your "scriptures", I find your assessment of whether or not I am showing "intelligence" to be risible. Deal with the actual text, without manipulation or dishonest inference; until then, you have much sweeping of your own floors to do.

You make a whole lot of false accusations to cover up your ability not to understand the Scriptures—you harp on what is not stated—

The term http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Adonai/adonai.html

...snip...

Edited by jsfisher: 

Content edited for compliance with rules 0 and 12 of the Membership Agreement.

 

[JayUtah]

You make a whole lot of false accusations to cover up your ability not to understand the Scriptures—

You have demonstrated you do not understand the Bible on this point. You have admitted you do not understand the languages in which the Bible was originally written. That includes Hebrew. You have suggested that certain words may be translated a certain way into English and understood in a certain fashion that is not permitted by the original language, of which I understand sufficient to contest you on this point. You have done this not because you understand the Bible, but because you desire the passage to be interpreted a certain way.

Do not lash out at people with personal attacks when they demonstrate knowledge and understanding superior to yours. And especially do not keep insisting that you are infallible. You patently are not.

 

[Paul Bethke]

You as a monotheist believe all but one of the gods are man made. I, as an atheist, believe even that one to be man made as well.

But in ancient times people, including the ancestors of the Jews, believed in lots of gods. The Israelites believed that the other gods were real. That's why they were told not to worship these gods, because their own god would be angry. He is made to say in Deuteronomy 5:7 "Thou shalt have none other gods before me". Not "there are no gods except me".

It is only from the late part of Isaiah onwards that he claims to be the only god. And that is said in relation to Cyrus King of Persia. The Jews may have got the one God idea from the Persians, because an early form of monotheism was invented there very long ago. It is called Zoroastrianism, and it still exists.

So in the days of the Psalms, the Israelites believed that there were different gods for different nations, but of course they believed their own god was Boss God. And that's what the psalm is about. The Israelite god is judging the other gods.

OK just for the record.

Yes that would sound good to an atheist—but from a Scriptural perspective, it was clear that the gods were not real, and this was to be taught to the Hebrews, who came out of Egypt.

2Sa_7:23 And who is like your people Israel—the one nation on earth that God went out to redeem as a people for himself, and to make a name for himself, and to perform great and awesome wonders by driving out nations and their gods from before your people, whom you redeemed from Egypt?

Isa 44:9 All who make idols are nothing, and the things they treasure are worthless. Those who would speak up for them are blind; they are ignorant, to their own shame.
Isa 44:10 Who shapes a god and casts an idol, which can profit him nothing?

2Ki_23:13 The king also desecrated the high places that were east of Jerusalem on the south of the Hill of Corruption—the ones Solomon king of Israel had built for Ashtoreth the vile goddess of the Sidonians, for Chemosh the vile god of Moab, and for Molech the detestable god of the people of Ammon.

Isa 44:9 All who make idols are nothing, and the things they treasure are worthless. Those who would speak up for them are blind; they are ignorant, to their own shame.

Isa 44:10 Who shapes a god and casts an idol, which can profit him nothing?

Isa 44:11 He and his kind will be put to shame; craftsmen are nothing but men. Let them all come together and take their stand; they will be brought down to terror and infamy.

Isa 44:12 The blacksmith takes a tool and works with it in the coals; he shapes an idol with hammers, he forges it with the might of his arm. He gets hungry and loses his strength; he drinks no water and grows faint.

Exo_12:12 "On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn—both men and animals—and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I AM the LORD.

So as I said it was Yahweh teaching the Hebrews that he was the only God and Creator. Today there have evolved a whole lot of other gods—so now it will be necessary to demonstrate who the ONLY God is, like in the days of Elijah.

 

[Paul Bethke]

You have demonstrated you do not understand the Bible on this point. You have admitted you do not understand the languages in which the Bible was originally written. That includes Hebrew. You have suggested that certain words may be translated a certain way into English and understood in a certain fashion that is not permitted by the original language, of which I understand sufficient to contest you on this point. You have done this not because you understand the Bible, but because you desire the passage to be interpreted a certain way.

Do not lash out at people with personal attacks when they demonstrate knowledge and understanding superior to yours. And especially do not keep insisting that you are infallible. You patently are not.

You are wrong—it would be of no value to distort the Scriptures—I have a very good knowledge of the Scriptures and a far better understanding of the meaning in the English language.

There have been many translation errors, but these can be understood by having a complete knowledge of Scripture, as the Scriptures do harmonise.
So when a translation problem occurs there are the other sections of Scripture to consult.

You and others have tried to discredit my knowledge, but it is plain to see that you are wrong in many aspects.
Scripture must be understood, it has an application, for the time past and the present time.

Now who has been personal, it is some of the people on the Forum—I am not afraid to review any of the things I believe, that is why I come on the Forum.

You see sooner or later personality traits begin to emerge, like you who now thinks it’s you duty to confront me on my response to said person.

There is not one thing where I have distorted the meaning of the Scriptures—one does not at this stage in time need to know the original language, although, I do consult with those who have this ability.

There are more than enough translations to acquire the correct meaning of what was intended.

 

[Craig B]

@ Paul Bethke. You prove my point. ALL your monotheist citations are from Isaiah 44! (See my post #52.) All your earlier quotations admit the existence of polytheism in Israel prior to the reforms of Josiah.

Your own chosen texts even tell us that Solomon who built the Jerusalem Temple!! also built places of worship for Ashtoreth, Chemosh and Molech.

And your Exodus passage has the God of Israel judging the gods of Egypt exactly as is stated in Psalm 82 the plain wording of which you refuse so resolutely to accept. Well here is another account of exactly that thing, from Exodus, and you have quoted it for us.

Dear Heaven, do you not stop to read the very words you type on the screen in front of your own nose?

 

[JayUtah]

You are wrong—it would be of no value to distort the Scriptures

Most religious zealots find it very valuable to distort scriptures. In fact, it happens all the time.

—I have a very good knowledge of the Scriptures and a far better understanding of the meaning in the English language.

Irrelevant. You are committing errors of interpretation that are not possible if you knew what actually was written, not what some translator decided to render.

There have been many translation errors...

I'm speaking of attempting to translate אלהים as judges. That is simply wrong.

...but these can be understood by having a complete knowledge of Scripture, as the Scriptures do harmonise.

No. First, the word is simply translated wrong. Second, you don't have a complete (or even competent) knowledge of the scriptures. Do not keep basing your argument on a pretense of infallibility. Third, this is not a problem of harmonization. There is no linguistical justification for rendering אלהים as anything but "God" or "gods," and no justification whatsoever for softening it to mean "judges." The translation "judges" allows ideological sensitivities to cloud the actual meaning of the text. It is wrong.

You and others have tried to discredit my knowledge, but it is plain to see that you are wrong in many aspects.

No. You simply brandish your claim of infallibility and carry on as if nothing happened. You are delusional.

 

[Slowvehicle]

You make a whole lot of false accusations to cover up your ability not to understand the Scriptures—you harp on what is not stated—

I invite you to identify a single "false accusation", or retract this calumny. Recall that I do, in fact, read and understand biblical Hebrew (and Aramaic); I am not willing to substitute what I wish I could pretend the text of your "scriptures" means in support of an idiopathic and idiosyncratic inference based upon unsupported interpretations of what I wish "scripture" said.

Unlike some, I do not presume to explain what 'god' really meant; I allow the words themselves expose what the authors, collectors, editors, and redactors of the text really said.

The term http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Adonai/adonai.html

One assumes you had a point in including, but not commenting on, this link.

In practice, "Adonai" is the word that is spoken when the tetragrammaton appears in the text, because the punctilious faithful did not, and do not, pronounce the word. The phrase that is rendered, in the KJV, as "the LORD your God" is, literally, יהוה אלהיך; the punctilious faithful did, and do, pronounce it as "Adonai Elohinu" NOT "Yahweh Elohinu" (or, even more carelessly, "Yahweh Elohim").

You are welcome.

 

[Paul Bethke]

I invite you to identify a single "false accusation", or retract this calumny. Recall that I do, in fact, read and understand biblical Hebrew (and Aramaic); I am not willing to substitute what I wish I could pretend the text of your "scriptures" means in support of an idiopathic and idiosyncratic inference based upon unsupported interpretations of what I wish "scripture" said.

You may be able to read the languages, but that does not mean you understand what you are reading ...snip...

I have met a few men who like you have knowledge of the languages of the Bible, but they do not know how this knowledge is applied. The Bible as you know has gone through a lot of problems in being compiled.

Unlike some, I do not presume to explain what 'god' really meant; I allow the words themselves expose what the authors, collectors, editors, and redactors of the text really said.

In order to distinguish the God of the Hebrews from all the other so called gods I refer to him as Yahweh—The God of the Hebrews has many names, these names in many ways refer to what he has done and what he said.

So today if I refer to God I must clarify that it is the God of the Hebrews, also known as the God of Israel, and the God of Abraham—God himself gave his name as the God of--- (Exo 3:15 God also said to Moses, "Say to the Israelites, 'The LORD, the God of your fathers—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob—has sent me to you.' This is my name forever, the name by which I am to be remembered from generation to generation.

One assumes you had a point in including, but not commenting on, this link.

Let me repeat what I have said in the past—one need not have a knowledge of the languages of the Bible, so I rely on the people who have this knowledge—that does not mean I cannot refer to English translation to be able to understand what the meaning of the Scriptures are.

That also means that each translation is in some way influenced by the denominations beliefs of the people doing the translations.

There are questionable sections in the Bible that needs be understood, so a complete knowledge of the Scriptures from Genesis to revelation must be consulted in order to come to the right conclusion.

Now this I have, having not read, but studied each book and verse, granted I use the NIV, but do regularly consult with other translations and on many occasions consult with those who have an understanding of the Scriptures from the original languages.

In practice, "Adonai" is the word that is spoken when the tetragrammaton appears in the text, because the punctilious faithful did not, and do not, pronounce the word. The phrase that is rendered, in the KJV, as "the LORD your God" is, literally, יהוה אלהיך; the punctilious faithful did, and do, pronounce it as "Adonai Elohinu" NOT "Yahweh Elohinu" (or, even more carelessly, "Yahweh Elohim").
You are welcome.

So now you want to make an issue of how the term God can be used—so as I have said, when referring to the Creator, we pass down the ages and the Creator now becomes known as God, but now God must be identified in a way that distinguishes him from all the other gods. So now the Jews refer to God, as G-d, or Hashem.

FYI.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism

Edited by jsfisher: 

Edited for compliance with Rule 12 of the Membership Agreement.