Paul Bethke vs the 613 Mitzvot

[Paul Bethke]

Don't be so hasty, in Psalm 82:1 Yahweh takes his seat at the divine council. This rather strongly implies that there are other deities, not just representations of wood, stone or metal.

Those described here as gods are evidently the judges and magistrates of Israel. See John_10:34. They were intended to be the mouthpiece and representatives of God; but instead, they thought only of their own interests and sought personal aggrandizement. But the psalmist beheld what was veiled from ordinary view-God standing in the midst of His people, judging them Himself and judging their judges.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'?
John 10:35 If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken—

Psa 82:6 "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'
Psa 82:7 But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler." Psa 82:8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance.

So they were not deities that were being addresses, but the leaders of Israel who were exalted to this high position.

Exo_7:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet.

Zec_12:8 On that day the LORD will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the Angel of the LORD going before them.

So here it is seen that the Saints can become like God.
Eph_4:24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

It was as it was in the beginning---Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."


The new Covenant exalts the Saints to a position above other people for the purpose of accomplishing the will of God.

2Co_3:18 And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.

Isa_46:9 Remember the former things, those of long ago; I AM God, and there is no other; I AM God, and there is none like me.
I am never hasty, I always consider carefully what is written, as I say, the Scriptures must be considered in their totality, not separately.

 

[Craig B]

Don't be so hasty, in Psalm 82:1 Yahweh takes his seat at the divine council. This rather strongly implies that there are other deities, not just representations of wood, stone or metal.

We have this from Judges 11

21 And the Lord God of Israel delivered Sihon and all his people into the hand of Israel, and they smote them: so Israel possessed all the land of the Amorites, the inhabitants of that country. 22 And they possessed all the coasts of the Amorites, from Arnon even unto Jabbok, and from the wilderness even unto Jordan.

23 So now the Lord God of Israel hath dispossessed the Amorites from before his people Israel, and shouldest thou possess it? 24 Wilt not thou possess that which Chemosh thy god giveth thee to possess? So whomsoever the Lord our God shall drive out from before us, them will we possess.​

YHWH and his counterpart Chemosh therefore do the same sorts of things, ie slaughtering foreign peoples and taking their lands. They were equivalent sorts of Gods. Moreover they had very similar commands to give, as we see in the oldest version of the Ten Commandments, the goat boiling set of rules in Exodus 34.

YHWH became a special kind of God only later. Even his Temple was, when built by Solomon, like the Temples of other gods, before the reforms conducted by King Josiah.

2 Kings 23:4 The king ordered Hilkiah the high priest, the priests next in rank and the doorkeepers to remove from the temple of the Lord all the articles made for Baal and Asherah and all the starry hosts. He burned them outside Jerusalem in the fields of the Kidron Valley and took the ashes to Bethel ... 6 He took the Asherah pole from the temple of the Lord to the Kidron Valley outside Jerusalem and burned it there. He ground it to powder and scattered the dust over the graves of the common people. 7 He also tore down the quarters of the male shrine prostitutes that were in the temple of the Lord, the quarters where women did weaving for Asherah.​

YHWH and the goddess Asherah were an item.

 

[Border Reiver]

Psa 82:6 "I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High.'
Psa 82:7 But you will die like mere men; you will fall like every other ruler." Psa 82:8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth, for all the nations are your inheritance.

So they were not deities that were being addresses, but the leaders of Israel who were exalted to this high position.

The only translation where we find Gods in quotes is the NIV version you favour. In the King James version it is not in quotes. This would then appear to be an editorial change carried out by the editors of the NIV version. Now, I will come clean here and admit that I cannot read the original Hebrew, so if some kind soul will do the honours of letting us know what the original says we can move on.

As you can see, translations matter, and an inability to read the original texts can lead to confusion. It is also clear that editors greatly affect the texts, as the addition of quotes around gods in the NIV makes it clear that Yahweh is calling them gods in a sarcastic manner, but their omission in the King James Version removes the sarcasm.

If pushed to hypothesize, I would posit that the KJV is closer to the original on the basis that no where else are quotation marks used in such a manner.

 

[Craig B]

@Border Reiver

Here's 82:6 in Hebrew from Biblehub. No indication of sarcasm here. http://biblehub.com/text/psalms/82-6.htm

I often run across the phenomena you desrcribe in NIV, where it disagrees with other translations.

 

[Craig B]

@Border Reiver

Here's 82:6 in Hebrew from Biblehub. No indication of sarcasm here. http://biblehub.com/text/psalms/82-6.htm

I often run across the phenomena you describe in NIV, where it disagrees with other translations.

In this passage, the Jewish Publication Society version resorts to a similar tactic.

I said: Ye are godlike beings, And all of you sons of the Most High​

 

[Border Reiver]

@Border Reiver

Here's 82:6 in Hebrew from Biblehub. No indication of sarcasm here. http://biblehub.com/text/psalms/82-6.htm

I often run across the phenomena you desrcribe in NIV, where it disagrees with other translations.

Thanks.

While I won't say hypothesis proved, I think we can use this as evidence that the editors of the Bible can definitely affect how a passage is interpreted by their choice of presentation.

 

[Craig B]

Thanks.

While I won't say hypothesis proved, I think we can use this as evidence that the editors of the Bible can definitely affect how a passage is interpreted by their choice of presentation.

Compare NIV with the rest here, Genesis 2:8. The intrusive "had" is trying to make some sort of rational sense of the passage, but it's not in the text.

 

[Slowvehicle]

The only translation where we find Gods in quotes is the NIV version you favour. In the King James version it is not in quotes. This would then appear to be an editorial change carried out by the editors of the NIV version. Now, I will come clean here and admit that I cannot read the original Hebrew, so if some kind soul will do the honours of letting us know what the original says we can move on.

As you can see, translations matter, and an inability to read the original texts can lead to confusion. It is also clear that editors greatly affect the texts, as the addition of quotes around gods in the NIV makes it clear that Yahweh is calling them gods in a sarcastic manner, but their omission in the King James Version removes the sarcasm.

If pushed to hypothesize, I would posit that the KJV is closer to the original on the basis that no where else are quotation marks used in such a manner.

The Masoretic text uses the word, אלהים; the very same word used to describe יהוה (NB: not "Yahweh"); for comparison, the Septuagint uses θεοί. In neither case does the text support the use of scare quotes...

 

[Paul Bethke]

What is clear here is that God is addressing men who are in leadership, it is looking at the complete Psalm. One can see that God is admonishing the men appointed to judge.

This is also clear in Isiah where God is reprimanding the elders

Isa_3:14 The LORD enters into judgment against the elders and leaders of his people: "It is you who have ruined my vineyard; the plunder from the poor is in your houses.

There are no other gods beside Yahweh---Isa 46:9 "Remember things that happened at the beginning, long ago — that I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.
Isa 44:6 Thus says Adonai, Isra'el's King and Redeemer, Adonai-Tzva'ot: "I AM the first, and I AM the last; besides me there is no God.


Psa 82:1 [A psalm of Asaf:] Elohim [God] stands in the divine assembly; there with the elohim [judges], he judges.(CJB)

So the consistency of Scripture shows us that God is addressing men in authority. There is no other God but Yahweh.

 

[Craig B]

Psa 82:1 [A psalm of Asaf:] Elohim [God] stands in the divine assembly; there with the elohim [judges], he judges.(CJB)

So the consistency of Scripture shows us that God is addressing men in authority. There is no other God but Yahweh.

NIV pulls its usual scare quotes stunt in this passage. Other versions don't.

NIV God presides in the great assembly; he renders judgment among the “gods”:
AV/KJV God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods.
ASV God standeth in the congregation of God; He judgeth among the gods.​

 

[JayUtah]

The Masoretic text uses the word, אלהים...

And lest there be quibbles, the very same word that identifies the Creator in Gen. 1:1.

 

[Border Reiver]

What is clear here is that God is addressing men who are in leadership, it is looking at the complete Psalm. One can see that God is admonishing the men appointed to judge.

This is also clear in Isiah where God is reprimanding the elders

Isa_3:14 The LORD enters into judgment against the elders and leaders of his people: "It is you who have ruined my vineyard; the plunder from the poor is in your houses.

As several others have pointed out, the Hebrew word used to describe Yahweh in Genesis 1:1 is the same as the one used in Psalms for other deities, which would imply that Yahweh and the authors of the Bible recognized other deities.

There are no other gods beside Yahweh---Isa 46:9 "Remember things that happened at the beginning, long ago — that I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.
Isa 44:6 Thus says Adonai, Isra'el's King and Redeemer, Adonai-Tzva'ot: "I AM the first, and I AM the last; besides me there is no God.

To be frank, this does not convince me. In the television series Game of Thrones Jaime Lannister claims that "There are no men like me." That doesn't mean that there are no other human males - that is simply boasting. Yahweh has already established that He is a jealous and vengeful god, adding boastful to the list falls well within the evidence of the Bible.

Psa 82:1 [A psalm of Asaf:] Elohim [God] stands in the divine assembly; there with the elohim [judges], he judges.(CJB)

So the consistency of Scripture shows us that God is addressing men in authority. There is no other God but Yahweh.

If Yahweh is described as Elohim in the above passage and the others there in counsel are also Elohim - doesn't that make them all gods? Assuming of course that Scripture is consistent, the evidence for which is lacking.

 

[JayUtah]

If Yahweh is described as Elohim in the above passage and the others there in counsel are also Elohim - doesn't that make them all gods? Assuming of course that Scripture is consistent, the evidence for which is lacking.

The word is in form a plural. However, Hebrew has a construct known as the majestic plural, which has no easy analogue in English. Depending on context, one can translate אלהים as the superlative (but singular) God, the creator named in Genesis or as the common plural "gods." The root אל refers equally to the god of the Hebrews and the various other gods. The awkward, "God, the God of Israel" contains appropriate linguistic distinctions in Hebrew that cannot be properly rendered in English.

 

[Border Reiver]

Thank you for the language lesson.

 

[Slowvehicle]

<scripturesnip>
Psa 82:1 [A psalm of Asaf:] Elohim [God] stands in the divine assembly; there with the elohim [judges], he judges.(CJB)

So the consistency of Scripture shows us that God is addressing men in authority. There is no other God but Yahweh.

This set of quotes beautifully illustrates slipshod and opportunistic hermeneutics.

The only reason to translate אלהים as 'god' in the first part of Psalm 82:1 and as "judges" in the second part is your own assumption that the Psalmist could not have intended to call men 'gods'; so you substitute what you personally say the words must mean for what the words actually say.

It is part and parcel with your slipshod use of "yahweh" and "adonai".

You do not preach your "scriptures"; you preach your own opinions about your "scriptures".

Surprise

 

[Slowvehicle]

And lest there be quibbles, the very same word that identifies the Creator in Gen. 1:1.

Inorite?

 

[halleyscomet]

This set of quotes beautifully illustrates slipshod and opportunistic hermeneutics.

The only reason to translate אלהים as 'god' in the first part of Psalm 82:1 and as "judges" in the second part is your own assumption that the Psalmist could not have intended to call men 'gods'; so you substitute what you personally say the words must mean for what the words actually say.

It is part and parcel with your slipshod use of "yahweh" and "adonai".

You do not preach your "scriptures"; you preach your own opinions about your "scriptures".

Surprise

 

[dudalb]

Forum member "Paul Bethke" maintains that modern Christians are required to adhere to a number of Old Testament laws that are ignored by modern Christians. .

And by most modern day Jews.....

ANyway this whole issue about to what extent Christians are bound by Old Testament Law was a principal topic of one of Paul's Epistles.

 

[Craig B]

"There are no men like me." That doesn't mean that there are no other human males - that is simply boasting. Yahweh has already established that He is a jealous and vengeful god, adding boastful to the list falls well within the evidence of the Bible.

Isaiah 40 and later chapters were written after the rest of the work, and under Persian influence, as stated here in Deutero Isaiah^WP

The Deutero-Isaian part of the book describes how God will make Jerusalem the centre of his worldwide rule through a royal saviour (a messiah) who will destroy her oppressor (Babylon); this messiah is the Persian king Cyrus the Great, who is merely the agent who brings about Yahweh's kingship. Isaiah speaks out against corrupt leaders and for the disadvantaged, and roots righteousness in God's holiness rather than in Israel's covenant. Isaiah 44:6 contains the first clear statement of monotheism: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god". This model of monotheism became the defining characteristic of post-Exilic Judaism, and the basis for Christianity and Islam.​

Much of Psalms is a lot earlier, and reflects the pre-monotheistic reality, heavily edited, needless to say, by the hands of later post-Exilic monotheist scribes and copyists.

If Yahweh is described as Elohim in the above passage and the others there in counsel are also Elohim - doesn't that make them all gods? Assuming of course that Scripture is consistent, the evidence for which is lacking.

Yes of course the Psalm depicts an assembly of gods taking orders from the Israelites' god. Presumably the Ammonites imagined their God Chemosh directing the affairs of that assembly.

 

[Paul Bethke]

This set of quotes beautifully illustrates slipshod and opportunistic hermeneutics.

The only reason to translate אלהים as 'god' in the first part of Psalm 82:1 and as "judges" in the second part is your own assumption that the Psalmist could not have intended to call men 'gods'; so you substitute what you personally say the words must mean for what the words actually say.

It is part and parcel with your slipshod use of "yahweh" and "adonai".

You do not preach your "scriptures"; you preach your own opinions about your "scriptures".
Surprise

How come you are so unwisely insulting---the quote comes from the Complete Jewish Bible
So those people who are affiliated with the Hebrew language must know what they are doing?
If you had any insight you will see clearly that the Psalm is directed at the judges of Israel, who were corrupting justice.