Paul Bethke vs the 613 Mitzvot

[halleyscomet]

Forum member "Paul Bethke" maintains that modern Christians are required to adhere to a number of Old Testament laws that are ignored by modern Christians. To help us better understand his theology of works, he has graciously offered to answer questions about his adherence to the laws of the old Testament to allow us to better understand his unique faith.

I actually enjoy answering question regarding the application of Torah.

The laws are generally summarized in the form of the "613 Mitzvot." Like the Ten Commandments, the exact content and order of this list can vary from denomination to denomination. In order to have a baseline for discussion we must first decide upon which version of the 613 Mitzvot we'll use. I propose one of three options.

1. The Topical list from jewfaq.org
   
2. The topical list by Maimonides as listed on Wikipedia
   
3. The chronological list by Maimonides as listed on Wikipedia

I've noticed a few verse errors on the chronological list on Wikipedia. Based upon earlier efforts to discuss this subject with "Paul Bethke" I think a topical listing would be preferable to a chronological one, as it will let us more easily answer large banks of questions from a smaller number of responses. To that end I propose we use The Topical list from jewfaq.org as it is well-researched and has a number of citations that I think will provide exciting staring points for more detailed discussion.

To that end, I ask "Paul Bethke" about the first of the Mitzvot as listed on JewFAQ:

1. To know that G-d exists (Ex. 20:2; Deut. 5:6) (CCA1).

This should be an easy one, but I'm a stickler for the details.

 

[halleyscomet]

I told Paul about this thread. He's been very vocal about how he answers questions. He's been actively posting in other threads. I wonder where he is...

 

[Crossbow]

I told Paul about this thread. He's been very vocal about how he answers questions. He's been actively posting in other threads. I wonder where he is...

[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/I3RcQ.jpg[/qimg]

It is difficult to say since he blinded so many people with his power of God.

 

[halleyscomet]

It is difficult to say since he blinded so many people with his power of God.

Well, time zones and all that. He IS in South Africa. Well, he says he's in South Africa.

Perhaps he'll answer tomorrow.

 

[Donn]

Mitzving in action.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Forum member "Paul Bethke" maintains that modern Christians are required to adhere to a number of Old Testament laws that are ignored by modern Christians. To help us better understand his theology of works, he has graciously offered to answer questions about his adherence to the laws of the old Testament to allow us to better understand his unique faith.



The laws are generally summarized in the form of the "613 Mitzvot." Like the Ten Commandments, the exact content and order of this list can vary from denomination to denomination. In order to have a baseline for discussion we must first decide upon which version of the 613 Mitzvot we'll use. I propose one of three options.

1. The Topical list from jewfaq.org
   
2. The topical list by Maimonides as listed on Wikipedia
   
3. The chronological list by Maimonides as listed on Wikipedia

I've noticed a few verse errors on the chronological list on Wikipedia. Based upon earlier efforts to discuss this subject with "Paul Bethke" I think a topical listing would be preferable to a chronological one, as it will let us more easily answer large banks of questions from a smaller number of responses. To that end I propose we use The Topical list from jewfaq.org as it is well-researched and has a number of citations that I think will provide exciting staring points for more detailed discussion.

To that end, I ask "Paul Bethke" about the first of the Mitzvot as listed on JewFAQ:



This should be an easy one, but I'm a stickler for the details.

First of all let us keep it very simple, and consider what Jesus meant with the following statement. Your topic is wrongly worded—I am not against the 613 Mitsvot, because it is as Jesus stated:-
Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them.
Mat 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Mat 5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So where do we begin
1. To know that G-d exists (Ex. 20:2; Deut. 5:6) (CCA1).
That is very easy, I know Yahweh the God of Israel exist, I have no doubt.

But this was directed at Israel, so how do we who follow Jesus as the Messiah view the parallel.

This is essentially equated with the death of Jesus as the Lamb of God who has sacrificed himself as a propitiation for sin.( Col_1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the Kingdom of the Son he loves.) So the redeemed have been rescued from the slavery of sin, into the freedom of faith.

(Exo_15:13 "In your unfailing love you will lead the people you have redeemed.[/b[ In your strength you will guide them to your holy dwelling.
(Rev_14:3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

So there can always be a parallel between what God did for Israel and what the death of Jesus did for the Church---( Act_20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the Church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

So which of the Scriptures are the most important—it would certainly be the Decalogue the Ten Commands that were inscribed on the two stone tablets---there are many other commands, but they are based on the Decalogue as being pivotal.

So now according to Jesus every command that God gave in the Torah is to be taught and put into practice.
But something to be considered is as Gentiles believers in Jesus as the Messiah some of these laws are not applicable.

Then it is necessary to look at the Jerusalem council who had to consider the incursion of Gentiles into the Church.

They came up with two inauguration terms.( Act 15:19 "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.
Act 15:20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
Act 15:21 For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath." )

Did this do away with the Torah—no, it was the terms set for consideration into the Covenant---this is where the old Testament and the new Testament is misleading—it is the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

So what is the New Covenant identification---( Heb 8:10 This is the Covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
So clearly the Laws are a means of finding favour with God through obedience?

But this first appeared in the Prophets, which was directed at Israel, now it is seen as applying to all, except that this is a letter to the Hebrews who have accepted Jesus as the Messiah.

(Jer 31:33 "This is the Covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
So now this blessing can be transferred to the Gentiles, the keeping of the Torah will result in the full blessing.

 

[halleyscomet]

First of all let us keep it very simple, and consider what Jesus meant with the following statement. Your topic is wrongly worded—I am not against the 613 Mitsvot

My apologies. At this point however I believe only moderators can change the thread title. While you aren't against the 613 Mitzvot, you are being tested against them, as are we all, so in that regard I think the title still works.

Next up:

2. Not to entertain the idea that there is any god but the Eternal (Ex. 20:3)

 

[halleyscomet]

Mitzving in action.

 

[Paul Bethke]

My apologies. At this point however I believe only moderators can change the thread title. While you aren't against the 613 Mitzvot, you are being tested against them, as are we all, so in that regard I think the title still works.
Quote:
2. Not to entertain the idea that there is any god but the Eternal (Ex. 20:3)

Next up:

This will be my last response for tonight as it is time for me to get some shut eye.
BTW which translation are you using—I favour the NIV.


2. Not to entertain the idea that there is any god but the Eternal (Ex. 20:3)

Well surely that is very obvious—I stand with what is recorded in the Torah ---Deut_6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

That as I understand, that there is only One God and that is the God of Israel.
But because you want a direct answer, I do not entertain the thought of there being any other god, but the Yahweh of Israel.

Good night

 

[halleyscomet]

BTW which translation are you using—I favour the NIV.

I'm copying and pasting from the site. The text is the author's summary of the law, not necessarily the actual Bible verse. The verse references will differ a bit as apparently Jewish and Christian translations don't always use the same chapter / verse breakdown. The site's author appears to have noted the differences where applicable, such as in this next one:

3. Not to blaspheme (Ex. 22:27; in Christian texts, Ex. 22:28), the penalty for which is death (Lev. 24:16) (negative).

 

[Crossbow]

Mitzving in action.

It is so strange at how "Mitzving in action" looks so much like "potatoe dicking".

 

[Donn]

It is so strange at how "Mitzving in action" looks so much like "potatoe dicking".

Nothing near that immortal!

 

[abaddon]

First of all let us keep it very simple, and consider what Jesus meant with the following statement. Your topic is wrongly worded—I am not against the 613 Mitsvot, because it is as Jesus stated:-
Mat 5:17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them.
Mat 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
Mat 5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

So where do we begin
1. To know that G-d exists (Ex. 20:2; Deut. 5:6) (CCA1).
That is very easy, I know Yahweh the God of Israel exist, I have no doubt.

But this was directed at Israel, so how do we who follow Jesus as the Messiah view the parallel.

This is essentially equated with the death of Jesus as the Lamb of God who has sacrificed himself as a propitiation for sin.( Col_1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the Kingdom of the Son he loves.) So the redeemed have been rescued from the slavery of sin, into the freedom of faith.

(Exo_15:13 "In your unfailing love you will lead the people you have redeemed.[/b[ In your strength you will guide them to your holy dwelling.
(Rev_14:3 And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.

So there can always be a parallel between what God did for Israel and what the death of Jesus did for the Church---( Act_20:28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the Church of God, which he bought with his own blood.

So which of the Scriptures are the most important—it would certainly be the Decalogue the Ten Commands that were inscribed on the two stone tablets---there are many other commands, but they are based on the Decalogue as being pivotal.

So now according to Jesus every command that God gave in the Torah is to be taught and put into practice.
But something to be considered is as Gentiles believers in Jesus as the Messiah some of these laws are not applicable.

Then it is necessary to look at the Jerusalem council who had to consider the incursion of Gentiles into the Church.

They came up with two inauguration terms.( Act 15:19 "It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.
Act 15:20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
Act 15:21 For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath." )

Did this do away with the Torah—no, it was the terms set for consideration into the Covenant---this is where the old Testament and the new Testament is misleading—it is the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

So what is the New Covenant identification---( Heb 8:10 This is the Covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
So clearly the Laws are a means of finding favour with God through obedience?

But this first appeared in the Prophets, which was directed at Israel, now it is seen as applying to all, except that this is a letter to the Hebrews who have accepted Jesus as the Messiah.

(Jer 31:33 "This is the Covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
So now this blessing can be transferred to the Gentiles, the keeping of the Torah will result in the full blessing.

And what is the mandated penalty for false prophets?

 

[JayUtah]

It is difficult to say since he blinded so many people with his power of God.

Well, my grass certainly hasn't recovered. But then again, it's summer and I live in a desert.

 

[Border Reiver]

This will be my last response for tonight as it is time for me to get some shut eye.

BTW which translation are you using—I favour the NIV.





2. Not to entertain the idea that there is any god but the Eternal (Ex. 20:3)



Well surely that is very obvious—I stand with what is recorded in the Torah ---Deut_6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.



That as I understand, that there is only One God and that is the God of Israel.

But because you want a direct answer, I do not entertain the thought of there being any other god, but the Yahweh of Israel.



Good night

You would be believing something not supported by Scripture then. There are numerous references to the existence of other deities in the Old Testament.

The verse you are quoting does state the there is only one God, but this is contradicted in Exodus 20:3 where he commands that "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me." If Yahweh was alone, then would he not simply state that he is the only true deity?

There are further references in Deuteronomy, Exodus, and Judges to Yahweh overcoming the gods of the neighbouring states which would suggest that there ARE other deities, but the commands are that they must NOT receive equal honours to that of Yahweh.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

You would be believing something not supported by Scripture then. There are numerous references to the existence of other deities in the Old Testament.

The verse you are quoting does state the there is only one God, but this is contradicted in Exodus 20:3 where he commands that "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me." If Yahweh was alone, then would he not simply state that he is the only true deity?

There are further references in Deuteronomy, Exodus, and Judges to Yahweh overcoming the gods of the neighbouring states which would suggest that there ARE other deities, but the commands are that they must NOT receive equal honours to that of Yahweh.

Must be the Devil's work. There is only One True God.

 

[JayUtah]

There are further references in Deuteronomy, Exodus, and Judges to Yahweh overcoming the gods of the neighbouring states which would suggest that there ARE other deities, but the commands are that they must NOT receive equal honours to that of Yahweh.

I had a rabbi tell me that the prevailing convention among non-Hebrews was that gods at the time had geographical territories, and that one typically thought of the gods "of the land" as having jurisdiction much as we would consider feudal lords. If you're in the land, you make at least some token obeisance to the god of the land. When you read the passages that describe the supremacy of Yahweh, you're supposed to understand that the Hebrews were being taught a different paradigm, and that the Hebrew god wasn't geographically limited.

 

[Paul Bethke]

I'm copying and pasting from the site. The text is the author's summary of the law, not necessarily the actual Bible verse. The verse references will differ a bit as apparently Jewish and Christian translations don't always use the same chapter / verse breakdown. The site's author appears to have noted the differences where applicable, such as in this next one:

3. Not to blaspheme (Ex. 22:27; in Christian texts, Ex. 22:28), the penalty for which is death (Lev. 24:16) (negative).

In order to ascertain what it means to blaspheme it is necessary to compare other verses---
Lev_24:16 anyone who blasphemes the name of the LORD must be put to death. The entire assembly must stone him. Whether an alien or native-born, when he blasphemes the Name, he must be put to death.
Num_15:30 "'But anyone who sins defiantly, whether native-born or alien, blasphemes the LORD, and that person must be cut off from his people.
Mar_3:29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."
Luk_12:10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

So to blaspheme does not only mean to use the name of God as a cuss word, but more importantly, it means to sin in defiance. That can be understood as one who rejects the commands of God and goes on sinning---David with Bathsheba is a good example.
He had the commands, not to commit adultery and a further command not to covet his neighbour’s wife—but despite this, he defiantly went ahead and blasphemed.

Another good example is as follows--- Neh_9:26 "But they were disobedient and rebelled against you; they put your law behind their backs. They killed your prophets, who had admonished them in order to turn them back to you; they committed awful blasphemies.

In my past sinful life I have been guilty of blasphemy, but now I have repented.

 

[Paul Bethke]

You would be believing something not supported by Scripture then. There are numerous references to the existence of other deities in the Old Testament.

The verse you are quoting does state the there is only one God, but this is contradicted in Exodus 20:3 where he commands that "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me." If Yahweh was alone, then would he not simply state that he is the only true deity?

There are further references in Deuteronomy, Exodus, and Judges to Yahweh overcoming the gods of the neighbouring states which would suggest that there ARE other deities, but the commands are that they must NOT receive equal honours to that of Yahweh.

But it is also clear that these gods of men were not gods at all. They were as it was stated-—

Gen_31:32 But if you find anyone who has your gods, he shall not live. In the presence of our relatives, see for yourself whether there is anything of yours here with me; and if so, take it." Now Jacob did not know that Rachel had stolen the gods.

Here it is seen as man mad statues or images of some sort—but addressed as gods.

Exo_20:23 Do not make any gods to be alongside me; do not make for yourselves gods of silver or gods of gold.

So here it is seen as making gods.

Exo_23:24 Do not bow down before their gods or worship them or follow their practices. You must demolish them and break their sacred stones to pieces.

So the Israelites were commanded to demolish these man made gods


Lev_19:4 "'Do not turn to idols or make gods of cast metal for yourselves. I am the LORD your God.

So gods can be made, and Yahweh said that they must not make gods, so these man made gods were spread across the land that Israel would take over, so each man made god had a particular way in which it was worshipped, even sacrificing children.

Deu_12:31 You must not worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD hates. They even burn their sons and daughters in the fire as sacrifices to their gods.

2Ki_23:13 The king also desecrated the high places that were east of Jerusalem on the south of the Hill of Corruption—the ones Solomon king of Israel had built for Ashtoreth the vile goddess of the Sidonians, for Chemosh the vile god of Moab, and for Molech the detestable god of the people of Ammon.

There were a lot of gods, but as it was said, they were not really gods just idols, made by men.

2Ch_34:33 Josiah removed all the detestable idols from all the territory belonging to the Israelites, and he had all who were present in Israel serve the LORD their God. As long as he lived, they did not fail to follow the LORD, the God of their fathers.
Jos_23:7 Do not associate with these nations that remain among you; do not invoke the names of their gods or swear by them. You must not serve them or bow down to them.

So yes they were termed gods but in actual fact were man made as was the golden calf.
But as I said it was the practices associated with the worship of these idols.

Deu_32:17 They sacrificed to demons, which are not God— gods they had not known, gods that recently appeared, gods your fathers did not fear.
Psa_106:37 They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons.

Anything can become a god, it is the practice in violation of what the Creator ordained, money and sex can become a god.

So to acknowledge Yahweh as the only God and Creator would necessarily involve worshipping him by adhering to his commands.

1John_5:3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

 

[Border Reiver]

Don't be so hasty, in Psalm 82:1 Yahweh takes his seat at the divine council. This rather strongly implies that there are other deities, not just representations of wood, stone or metal.