Actually, I would be very much interested in this topic. I don't know much about it. I have heard Jesus described as the leader of an apocalyptic Jewish cult, but I haven't really heard much of an explanation of that. If anyone has anything along these lines to discuss, I for one would love to read it.
Split Thread Signs of the End Times
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Actually, I would be very much interested in this topic. I don't know much about it. I have heard Jesus described as the leader of an apocalyptic Jewish cult, but I haven't really heard much of an explanation of that. If anyone has anything along these lines to discuss, I for one would love to read it.
halleyscomet
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One of the debates the religious leaders tried to draw Jesus into was regarding the resurrection of the dead.
The term we're looking at is Jewish eschatology
It's been a long time since I looked into this topic. Most the Jews I know aren't that interested in "End Times" discussion, either because of the saturation of Christian paranoia about it or because, well, the End of the World is not a topic one feels like discussing when you have grandparents who survived the Holocaust.
A quick read of some Jewish sources however is very enlightening:
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/108400/jewish/The-End-of-Days.htm
The summaries look an awful lot like the Christian version, which isn't all that surprising.
Border Reiver
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The Signs of the End of the World seem to be fairly constant throughout most religions - there is often a period where there is a great number of natural disasters, war and breakdowns of the social order, followed by a big battle between the forces of order and chaos, and for the non-Abrahamic religions finished off with a renewal of the cycle. So far as I've seen, only the Abrahamic faiths seem to go with a linear progression of time to an end, rather than a cycle.
Thank you much for the reading material.
So, basically, Abrahamic religions have it as beginning - tootling along - chaos - ending - The End.
And other religions have it as beginning - tootling along - chaos - ending - beginning again - tootling along - etc.
That about it? I know when people were freaking out about the ending of the Mayan calendar (in 2012?), I kept thinking, "That calendar is cyclical. The ending of one cycle just means the beginnig of the next . . . ."
abaddon
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You seem to lack an actual prophecy.
halleyscomet
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The really weird part about the linear progressions is that Genesis starts off with:
The Bible clearly describes a pre-existing something upon which the existing world was built. While groups like "Answers in Genesis" tend to squash it, back in the "Wild West" days of Creationist theory you could easily find essays in the pages of the Creation Research Society Quarterly where people reached back to the oldest extant texts to postulate that this world was built from the remains of a previous creation.
Even the final dissolution doesn't describe outright material oblivion:
The Story of God by Chris Matheson runs with this idea, beginning with God hovering over endless depths of water before creating the universe. It then ends him hovering over the waters again, having put the universe through another cycle. Satan explicitly states that this is something they'd done many times before, always with similar results. This story, I think, gets closer to the mythological roots from which Judaism and subsequently Christianity emerged. The Biblical text makes it clear that this linear story evolved from a cyclical one.
Border Reiver
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The idea of a linear way of looking at time makes sense if you see it as a rejection of the cyclical way that the neighbouring polytheistic appear to have considered time. Rejecting the gods of those neighbours, and related elements such as the perception of time.
And it also explains why there appear to be cyclical elements in the current myths - the retcon wasn't as complete as the editors were going for and some of the older elements stuck around, or were overlooked.
And it also explains why there appear to be cyclical elements in the current myths - the retcon wasn't as complete as the editors were going for and some of the older elements stuck around, or were overlooked.
JayUtah
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...which is the Mormon belief, and how they explain dinosaurs (which were from a previous planet out of which the Earth was made).
halleyscomet
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Christianity NEEDS the linear arrow of time as opposed to a cycle because without it you have a God who not only created ONE pair of humans who would go on to sin, but a repeated series of people doing the same thing.
Once is regrettable, but multiple examples of the same thing is a pattern and likely deliberate. At that point you aren't just questioning God's intentions and competence but are forced to admit he's either malevolent or incompetent.
Racism, totalitarian origin and Misogyny aside, there really is a lot about Mormonism that seems to have been an effort to "fix" issues with existing Christianity, which probably has a lot to do with its appeal.
Paul Bethke
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Yes but the people who came from Africa, and travelled to other regions had already indulged in this diet.
You see it is a conclusive fact that God who gave commands not to drink blood and eat meat that was stipulated as unclean, did this to protect people from this mutation—but man as he is will always want to push the boundaries. It is the same as when Yahweh stated that a man must not have sex with a man, but men do that ignoring the command.
This command was given in the early stages, when Noah came out the ark, so now that man had the approval of God which was not what Elohim had in mind, man could start eating of the clean animals, but with the stipulation, not to drink blood or eat meat with the blood still in it –this law in its severity was included in the Torah, and later included in the Jerusalem council.
Gen 9:4 "But you must not eat meat that has its lifeblood still in it.
Lev 17:10 "'Any Israelite or any alien living among themwho eats any blood—I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from his people.
Act_15:20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
They strangle the animal so as much blood possible can be saturated in the meat. So right down through the eons God has warned men, yet it is still a custom today.
halleyscomet
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Whatever. The thread topic is "Signs of the End Times." Unless you can somehow connect your "Eating Bush Babies dyes your skin" fanfic to Jewish or Christian mythology about the End Times you're just trying to thread-jack this discussion AGAIN.
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Paul Bethke
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No this gent gives an adequate explanation.
http://www.icr.org/article/does-bible-really-claim-that-insects-only-have-fou/
halleyscomet
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End Times mythology has a real world impact. The belief that the Jews need to be gathered together in Israel and the temple rebuilt is shared by some Jewish mythologies and many Christian ones. I personally know people who HATE Jews but see Jewish control of Israel as necessary to bring about the return of Christ. A good deal of the Religious right's support of Israel is all about bringing about the End of the World. It's ironic that a good deal of American support for Israel comes from anti-Semites who see the Jews a grist for the mill to be chewed up and destroyed by the antichrist.
There's also the fact that in many ways, it's hard to tease out Jewish writing about wanting to return to Israel during the Babylonian exile and genuine ideas about the end of the world. Judaism was still fairly closely connected to the cyclical religions of the region, so seeing the Jewish exile from Israel and the eventual return as part of a cycle, mirrored in the lifespan of the Earth itself, would have been perfectly consistent.
It's not dissimilar to how the Revelation of John was more about Nero than the actual end of the world.
There's also the fact that in many ways, it's hard to tease out Jewish writing about wanting to return to Israel during the Babylonian exile and genuine ideas about the end of the world. Judaism was still fairly closely connected to the cyclical religions of the region, so seeing the Jewish exile from Israel and the eventual return as part of a cycle, mirrored in the lifespan of the Earth itself, would have been perfectly consistent.
It's not dissimilar to how the Revelation of John was more about Nero than the actual end of the world.
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
I know what the topic is—it is you who have deviated from the topic and now you want to leave what you started, where are the 613s?
As I started with the END time is the beginning of the coming Kingdom, it is as Jesus said---your Kingdom come---the Jews are waiting for the Messiah, but he has already come fulfilling the Scriptures recorded in Isiah 53, so now the second advent will be the first advent for the Jews.
abaddon
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You do realise that you are citing ICR? Those people who think you are a wingnut?
Not my problem. Take it up with them.
halleyscomet
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It belongs in its own thread. I'd start one but you've demonstrated handily that you have no intention of actually answering questions, just dodging and meandering until you decide to claim there was a clear answer somewhere in the chaff.
OK, back on track at last.
Assuming Jesus was the Jewish Messiah his second coming still wouldn't be a first advent for the Jews. He'd still be coming a second time, it would just be the first time the Jews recognized him as such, assuming any did.
halleyscomet
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Personally I think Yeshua ben Yosef will be hindered by the fact that, after nearly 2,000 years of deceptive art, so few people are willing to accept the idea of a Christ who LOOKS Middle-Eastern.
Combine that with warnings about anti-Christs pretending to be the returned Christ:
and you have a Yeshua ben Yosef who will face significant opposition from the very people who claim to pray to him on Sundays.
Ironically, there will probably be a LOT of Americans who reject him as a "Secret Muslim" because of his skin color. A lot of ignorant, racist jackasses will be calling out, "Well, MY Jesus is white and he KNOWS how to pronounce his name!"
Combine that with warnings about anti-Christs pretending to be the returned Christ:
and you have a Yeshua ben Yosef who will face significant opposition from the very people who claim to pray to him on Sundays.
Ironically, there will probably be a LOT of Americans who reject him as a "Secret Muslim" because of his skin color. A lot of ignorant, racist jackasses will be calling out, "Well, MY Jesus is white and he KNOWS how to pronounce his name!"
Paul Bethke
Philosopher
You are wrong, I actually enjoy answering question regarding the application of Torah.
True in some sense, but it is prophesied that they will see him as the one they pierced---and that they the Jews are still to undergo a tremendous suffering as a result of not adhering to the Torah as is the case with them today.
So Zachariah is looking past the first advent to the second---Zec_12:10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
So it seems ironic that the Jews are waiting for someone who will cause them great grief.
halleyscomet
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Excellent. Since you've agreed to answer the questions, I've created a new thread for the discussion.
Paul Bethke vs the 613 Mitzvot
The same can be said of Christians. Remember, the concept of a pre-tribulation Rapture does not have Biblical support. Millions are eagerly anticipating the End Times under the delusion that they would be spared the tribulation itself. This twisting of the text into a contorted revenge fantasy, where the Good Christians(tm) get to watch the Heathens suffer, has driven a wedge of pride between Christians and the rest of humanity.
Christians will suffer as much as the Jews during the tribulation.
Crossbow
Seeking Honesty and Sanity
Is there even one thing that Paul Bethke has gotten right over the years?
Off hand, I cannot think of a single thing.
Off hand, I cannot think of a single thing.
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