Split Thread Signs of the End Times

[Paul Bethke]

But you failed with the grass. Your lessons have no value.

I must admit I failed to see your great wisdom in the past, but now realize with such great wisdom directed at me, I must surely take note.

True Jesus taught by demonstration, so therefore I must necessarily follow his example, to have people take note of what I say--even the followers of Jesus taught with demonstration, so how can I achieve anything without accompanying visuals.

Act 8:6 When the crowds heard Philip and saw the miraculous signs he did, they all paid close attention to what he said.

So taking note of what you have so wisely stated, I have set in motion something that I will demonstrate in the near future.

 

[Craig B]

What with the dear God—well you are plainly no acquainted with the Scriptures, to know the truth—I teach from what is recorded, you just like to be derogatory.

The Ten Commandments cannot be change no matter what Wikipedia says, there are all sorts of false accusations committed, which ignorant people believe.

Denominations have changed a lot of things that are in the Scriptures because it does not agree with their doctrine. Basically there are those commandments that are reiterated elsewhere, so it is easy to make a comparison.

The Ten Commandments are the first ten of the 613 commandments given by God to the Jewish people. They form the foundation of Jewish ethics, behaviour and responsibility. These commandments are mentioned in order twice in the Torah - once each in the Book of Exodus and the Book of Deuteronomy.
________________________________________
1) I am the Lord thy god, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
2) Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.
3) Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.
4) Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.
5) Honour thy father and thy mother.
6) Thou shalt not murder.
7) Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8) Thou shalt not steal.
9) Thou shalt not bear false witness against they neighbour.
10) Thou shalt not covet anything that belongs to thy neighbour.

The kosher law are those laws of God adopted by the Jewish believers, which we who have faith in Christ have also adopted as an integral part of faith.

Your version is the Jewish one. As I have shown the Protestants and Catholics respectively have somewhat different lists. Moreover the only set of commandments explicitly labelled "Ten Commandments" in the Scriptures is the goat-boiling etc one in Exodus 34. Here is my post again on that topic.

There are three versions of them in the Torah. Only one of them is described at the end of the list as the "Ten Commandments". Here is the passage from Exodus 34. It is unambiguous. If there's only one version of the Ten Commandments, it's the one in Ex 34.

27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write down these words for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” 28 Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.​

Go and read them. Ex 34:10-26.

 

[Paul Bethke]

There are three versions of them in the Torah. Only one of them is described at the end of the list as the "Ten Commandments". Here is the passage from Exodus 34. It is unambiguous. If there's only one version of the Ten Commandments, it's the one in Ex 34.

27 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write down these words for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” 28 Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.​

Go and read them. Ex 34:10-26.

The whole of the Torah is known as the Covenant God made with Israel. The Ten were those specifically that Yahweh inscribed on the two tablets of stone.

Exo_31:18 When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the Testimony, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God.
Exo_32:15 Moses turned and went down the mountain with the two tablets of the Testimony in his hands. They were inscribed on both sides, front and back.
Deu_9:10 The LORD gave me two stone tablets inscribed by the finger of God. On them were all the commandments the LORD proclaimed to you on the mountain out of the fire, on the day of the assembly.

So there are only these Ten Commands that were referred to as being spoken by God on the mountain.
So the remainder of the Covenant Moses wrote down-- Exo_34:27 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a Covenant with you and with Israel."

So the Pentateuch -the first five Books of the Bible, constitute the Covenant, as complete.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Actually, the question I, personally, asked, was, "When do you, personally, think ƴ ͤ fludde happened?"

In other words, what date do you, personally believe the "scirptures assign to "ƴ ͤ fludde"?

I hope that you will answer this, as a foundation for your learning.

I gave you the Biblical calendar, so from that you can see the time they say the flood took place--I thought that was perfectly clear--as I say I must also confer with others who have made a study of these things.

 

[turingtest]

I must admit I failed to see your great wisdom in the past, but now realize with such great wisdom directed at me, I must surely take note.

True Jesus taught by demonstration, so therefore I must necessarily follow his example, to have people take note of what I say--even the followers of Jesus taught with demonstration, so how can I achieve anything without accompanying visuals.

Act 8:6 When the crowds heard Philip and saw the miraculous signs he did, they all paid close attention to what he said.

So taking note of what you have so wisely stated, I have set in motion something that I will demonstrate in the near future.

What and when? Your answer, if you give one, should be in the form of (for example) "I will cause the sun to stand still in the sky for 12 hours on Feb 6, 2017." Something similar, anyway, and specific- no waffling around with more "you'll see, something wonderful soon!" Taking credit afterwards for some event you had nothing to do with is what a false prophet would do. So...you want to play with the big boys, put on your big-boy pants, and tell us exactly what you're going to do and when.

 

[Paul Bethke]

...demonstrating your own lack of a "working knowledge" of "scripture"...

Do you realize there was more than one set of tablets?

<egosnip>

Edited by Agatha: 

Removed breach of rule 0

It is a known fact for anyone who has read the Scriptures that Moses broke the first set, and that Yahweh inscribed another set.

Exo_34:1 The LORD said to Moses, "Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.

 

[Paul Bethke]

You continue to avoid the question.

What was the question--maybe it was beyond my ability, to explain that which is so clear?

 

[Paul Bethke]

No, it was based on the research done by leading archaeologists from around the world.

Good, I was just asking.

 

[Crossbow]

I must admit I failed to see your great wisdom in the past, but now realize with such great wisdom directed at me, I must surely take note.

True Jesus taught by demonstration, so therefore I must necessarily follow his example, to have people take note of what I say--even the followers of Jesus taught with demonstration, so how can I achieve anything without accompanying visuals.

Act 8:6 When the crowds heard Philip and saw the miraculous signs he did, they all paid close attention to what he said.

So taking note of what you have so wisely stated, I have set in motion something that I will demonstrate in the near future.

I suggest that you do yourself a favor and stop making predictions.

Considering all of your many failed and absurd predictions from the past thirteen years which have never materialized, then one should think that you have learned by now to stop with such foolishness.

 

[halleyscomet]

Edited by Agatha: 

Removed breach of rule 0 in quote

Because as I said it has no relevance to me—If you asked, did I ever drink alcohol, which has relevance to me I would answer “yes”





Well if you are going to go through every one of the 613 Mitzvot, we can rather consider going through all the laws in the Torah, as I stated in a previous post which you seem to have ignored, that I teach the Torah as a basis of faith.





I have given a clear answer which you seem not to be able to comprehend!

Apparently "clear answer" has a different definition among South African white supremacists than Americans.

Regardless, which listing of the Jewish laws do you prefer we use? I'd picked a common one used by the majority of Jews across multiple branches of the faith, that of Maimonides. What do YOU propose we use as a basis?

 

[Slowvehicle]

I gave you the Biblical calendar, so from that you can see the time they say the flood took place--I thought that was perfectly clear--as I say I must also confer with others who have made a study of these things.

Actually, the question I, personally, asked, was, "When do you, personally, think ƴ ͤ fludde happened?"

In other words, what date do you, personally believe the "scriptures assign to "ƴ ͤ fludde"? In what year did it happen?

I hope that you will answer this, instead of sidestepping it, as a foundation for your learning.

 

[Craig B]

The whole of the Torah is known as the Covenant God made with Israel. The Ten were those specifically that Yahweh inscribed on the two tablets of stone.

Exo_31:18 When the LORD finished speaking to Moses on Mount Sinai, he gave him the two tablets of the Testimony, the tablets of stone inscribed by the finger of God.
Exo_32:15 Moses turned and went down the mountain with the two tablets of the Testimony in his hands. They were inscribed on both sides, front and back.
Deu_9:10 The LORD gave me two stone tablets inscribed by the finger of God. On them were all the commandments the LORD proclaimed to you on the mountain out of the fire, on the day of the assembly.

So there are only these Ten Commands that were referred to as being spoken by God on the mountain.
So the remainder of the Covenant Moses wrote down-- Exo_34:27 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a Covenant with you and with Israel."

So the Pentateuch -the first five Books of the Bible, constitute the Covenant, as complete.

The words Ten Commandments refer to the commandments given in Ex 34. You're just pulling nonsense out of your bum to avoid admitting that. And what about the denominational disagreements I referred to?

 

[halleyscomet]

What with the dear God—well you are plainly no acquainted with the Scriptures, to know the truth—I teach from what is recorded, you just like to be derogatory.



The Ten Commandments cannot be change no matter what Wikipedia says, there are all sorts of false accusations committed, which ignorant people believe.



Denominations have changed a lot of things that are in the Scriptures because it does not agree with their doctrine. Basically there are those commandments that are reiterated elsewhere, so it is easy to make a comparison.



The Ten Commandments are the first ten of the 613 commandments given by God to the Jewish people. They form the foundation of Jewish ethics, behaviour and responsibility. These commandments are mentioned in order twice in the Torah - once each in the Book of Exodus and the Book of Deuteronomy.

________________________________________

1) I am the Lord thy god, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

2) Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

3) Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

4) Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.

5) Honour thy father and thy mother.

6) Thou shalt not murder.

7) Thou shalt not commit adultery.

8) Thou shalt not steal.

9) Thou shalt not bear false witness against they neighbour.

10) Thou shalt not covet anything that belongs to thy neighbour.



The kosher law are those laws of God adopted by the Jewish believers, which we who have faith in Christ have also adopted as an integral part of faith.

"Paul Bethke," your routine is getting repetition again. Flat out denial when you've been provided references and detailed analysis proving you're wrong is boring. If I wanted a "nuh-uh!" Level discourse I'd visit friends with poorly behaved children and discuss the importance of eating vegetables with said children.

You've been given an explanation of how the "Ten Commandments" are a derivative work not explicitly stated in the Bible the way you claim they are. You've been given examples of how that list varies, often subtly, between denominations. Your response has been to metaphorically stick your fingers in your years and deny the evidence before you.

You're entertaining when you try to use logic. Please return to your efforts at apologetic writing. Those are funny.

 

[Border Reiver]

As may be expected, while there is broad acceptance of the idea that there is only one set of "10 Commandments", the reality is that the Commandments are listed three times in the bible and are slightly different each time. And the style in which they are written down can cause confusion and obviously, differences in interpretation.

1) I am the Lord thy god, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

This one isn't a command or a rule, this is a statement. It cannot be interpreted as a command, but if you combine it with what you and others interpret as the second commandment, it makes sense as a prologue. It only makes sense in such a case, as not all peoples were in bondage when the word was brought to them.

2) Thou shalt have no other gods before Me.

This can either be interpreted to mean that Yahweh is the only deity, or that there are other deities, and Yahweh must be given primacy. Archeological evidence would seem to indicate that the monotheistic approach only started to gain primacy after the Babylonian captivity. This also gives a bit of a problem to those that believe that Jesus is divine. If Jesus is divine, then how can you possibly honour Yahweh as the only deity? This is what leads to the rather awkward Trinitarian Doctrine (God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit - three aspects of the same being).

3) Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

Are you seeing this as not committing perjury, or not cursing in general? There are arguments on both sides.

4) Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.

Which one - ie. what day is the Sabbath? Do you take it as being from sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday, or do you use a different time? The Bible doesn't explicitly state how to mark the days, nor does it give a definite start date - our current week is the result of social conventions, not divine statements and arguments can be made for any of them with equal validity.

5) Honour thy father and thy mother.

Generally a good idea, especially when under Jewish law a disobedient child can be put to death. I however prefer to not view my children as property that can be disposed of when it becomes problematic for me. I also have general problems with the idea of this being a commandment as there are many times when honouring either parent just should not happen, as when a parent is abusive for instance.

6) Thou shalt not murder.

Kill, or murder? I lean towards Murder myself, as the preponderance of killing done at Yahweh's commands in the OT leads one to believe that Yahweh's OK with some judicially sanctioned killing or the deaths of people not his favourites at that particular instant.

7) Thou shalt not commit adultery.

I don't disagree with this, as I believe that you do owe your spouse the respect of being the focus of your releationship. Where I disagree with your interpretation is the idea the sex=marriage. I see where you get the idea, but believe that you are ignoring other verses that indicate anything other than your preferred interpretation.

8) Thou shalt not steal.

One of those cross cultural constants.

9) Thou shalt not bear false witness against they neighbour.

Another cross cultural constant. On the other hand, it is hard to reconcile not bearing false witness against thy neighbour, with the propaganda found in the Bible against neighbouring peoples, and the misinformation that you have attempted to spread concerning black people Mr. Bethke.

10) Thou shalt not covet anything that belongs to thy neighbour.

A far better version than the one found in the Bible, which equates a wife with a man's property. Also hard to reconcile with the conquest of Canaan and the wars of Saul and David, as what is an aggressive war of conquest if not coveting the lands of your neighbour?

 

[turingtest]

I suggest that you do yourself a favor and stop making predictions.
Considering all of your many failed and absurd predictions from the past thirteen years which have never materialized, then one should think that you have learned by now to stop with such foolishness.

Actually, I think he has (stopped making predictions)- "something I will demonstrate in the near future" hardly rises to the level of prediction. So, from his debacles of "withering the grass" and "blinding James Randi" (and others, IIRC), he's learned the lesson that a true prophet is just one that is not obviously (i.e., testably) false- he's learned flim-flam lesson number 1, "avoid specifics."

And I'd suggest that this is all that really matters; Paul himself says he shouldn't be taken seriously about anything he says if he can't demonstrate by definite signs his sainthood. All this palaver about the ten commandments and other biblical exegesis is all well and good- I've learned a lot from it (though, needless to say, very little from Paul except how to twist it to fit an agenda)- but I think that, on his own grounds, the only thing that's important is to hold his feet to the fire on his claimed status as a prophet. Just about anything else is just a way for him to avoid the test that he himself says is the only real one.

 

[Paul Bethke]

Paul, in another thread you were talking about your background and how you came to believe what you believe about the bible. I don't suppose it's occurred to you that your character hasn't fundamentally changed? I'm assuming you sought out religion because somewhere deep inside you knew it was wrong to be the way that you were in the past.

Based on what I'm reading here in your posts you haven't made that change. You're simply justifying the urge to condemn, punish, and judge others through the institution of religion. That doesn't make your words the voice of God anymore than it did the Catholic priests during the inquisition, or the Puritans in Salem, etc....

I'm still stuck on your saying that skin color is affected by drinking the blood of animals. You need to do some serious reading on history, archaeology, biology, sociology, and psychology. After you do all that, then go back and reread the bible and see if you still think it's the word of God.

Someone did say that I am obliged to answer all questions, which I have been doing—out of the 2600 posts I have posted 850, so I have not been lax on the matter, maybe missed a few. But at the present time I do have some time on my hands to indulge in this Forum, which has proved to be very informative.

First of all warning people of the judgement of God, is not disliking people—I was shown that my ways were contrary to what God prescribes so I repented. I am not condemning people who are already condemned, I am showing that there is a way for sinners to repent and be forgiven, sharing my experience.-- John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

I am in full agreement that the image of the Church is flawed. Had the Church been true to the teachings of Jesus, then there may well have been a different outcome to the prevailing judgement that is to follow.

Now with regards to pigmentation as a result of what I say due to diet, this is a conclusive result when you consider the consequence of violating the Covenant of the Creator.

God in his wisdom created all things subject to change, now a change would take place when people drink blood and eat primates. So he gave a command which has been ignored, and we see the result.

So now in presenting this as fact does not exclude black people from the salvation which God has inaugurated. But it does require that they as whites accept the terms required for repentance to take place.

 

[Paul Bethke]

That's right ladies and gentlemen. Here we have someone claiming that insects only had four legs at the time the Bible was written in an effort to explain away the fact the Bible is wrong on this point.
I quiver with anticipation of his explanation for the Bible's claim that bats are birds. Perhaps he'll suggest bats once had a cloaca and stopped laying eggs sometime after the crucifixion.

As for whether or not the scribes who wrote the Bible in the first place could count past four, obviously they could, they just didn't bother taking a close look at insects to find out how many legs they actually had. This speaks volumes about the level of fact checking that went into writing the Bible.

You seem to lack a bit of humour.

 

[halleyscomet]

God in his wisdom created all things subject to change, now a change would take place when people drink blood and eat primates. So he gave a command which has been ignored, and we see the result.

So now in presenting this as fact does not exclude black people from the salvation which God has inaugurated. But it does require that they as whites accept the terms required for repentance to take place.

Repeating a nonsensical claim does not constitute evidence.

Repetition is not evidence.

Do you have a basis other than your own racism to support your claim that eating primates increases the melanin in one's skin and alters one's DNA to convey that pigmentation change to future generations??

Even if it were true, which it is not, your claim would require Africans in regions where there ARE no other primates to have somehow found, killed and eaten a primate. While there are regions of Africa with a history of ceremonial cannibalism, it doesn't cover the entire continent. Your "theory" would only explain the pigmentation of a fraction of Africa's inhabitants.

 

[halleyscomet]

You seem to lack a bit of humour.

Then you admit the Bible was wrong about the number of legs on an insect.

 

[halleyscomet]

OK everybody, let's retrench. This thread was SUPPOSED to be about "Signs of the End Times." It's in the title. What we've gotten however is pages upon pages of tangents about niche forms of South African White Supremacist racism and bizarre, irrational and nonsensical contortions of pseudo-logic used to support it.

Let's focus back on "Signs of the End Times."

First, it looks like aside from "Paul Bethke," most the people in this thread are fairly well versed (pun intended) on the Bible's contents. To that end I propose we reboot the discussions with this thesis:

What are the differences between Jewish descriptions of the "End of the World" and Christian depictions of it?

I would further prose that we leave the pre-tribulation Rapture crowd out if it, as they're more an offshoot from a 19th century cult with twisted revenge fantasies than anything based upon competent Biblical scholarship.