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The existence of God and the efficacy of prayer

So you don't know what a confounding factor is? And at any rate you have yet to show that the placebo effect (which includes regression to the mean) would trigger an beneficial immune response

What definition of confounding factors do you want to use?
"A confounding factor involves is a situation, in which the effects of two or more processes are not separated; the distortion of the apparent effect of an exposure on risk, brought about by the association with other factors that can influence the outcome."

or

"A relationship between the effects of two or more causal factors observed in a set of data, such that it is not logically possible to separate the contribution of any single causal factor to the observed effects."

From your second sentence you are talking about statistics. I suppose if you believe in random changes in genes causes cancer then you might think statistics is relevant.

I don't see that either definition has any relevance.
The processes can be separated. The actions of the stem cell to transform into cancer stem cells is not affected by immune cells but immune cells as well as stromal cells and others do communicate with tumor cells as far as proliferation rate and movement is concerned.

How on earth do you see that a regression to the mean has anything to do with placebo effect?

In statistics, regression toward (or to) the mean is the phenomenon that if a variable is extreme on its first measurement, it will tend to be closer to the average on its second measurement—and if it is extreme on its second measurement, it will tend to have been closer to the average on its first.
(definition from Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regression_toward_the_mean)

How does that have anything to do with placebo meaning. It becomes relevant in looking at a large number of people's placebo responses in a clinical trial.

You don't seem to understand what I am talking about.
A placebo effect is not something that would trigger something else, as for instance your suggestion of a beneficial immune response. There is no sense in talking about "an exposure on risk" or that there are any other associated factors. All this presupposes the official medical story of "physical causes", the smoking, pollution, UV rays, eating too much meat and all the other ridiculous risk factors that they talk about. NONE of them cause cancer.

A placebo effect is the body's reaction to a belief (an idea upheld with confidence or considered to be true or real). Even in faith healing a belief is still about something. It is not arbitrary.

ALSO the immune response is not the key factor. Certainly it is involved in removing any excess cells at the end of the process of spontaneous remission but this is only because there is excess cells.

It is erroneous to think of the immune system as having a beneficial as opposed to a null effect or "not working property" or co-opted garbage.

Certainly the immune system can identify harmful bacterial but in most cases it is signaled by a cell that has become infected. Sometimes that cell might be an immune cell but most commonly it is not an immune cell.

Even cells with damage or errors beyond repair signal the immune system. It is not that the immune system recognizes them without some signal from the damaged cell.
 
show that the placebo effect (which includes regression to the mean) would trigger an beneficial immune response

You are thinking along the lines of pills and medical procedures that are tested in a drug trial. This is not the same. You have it wrong.

You don't need to do a clinical trial to see the processes involved in breathing or heart function or the inflammatory response. You may study more than one person's system or animal's system but you can see what happens in one system.

Many different combinations of beliefs and emotional conditions are involved in different cases but the process of cancer stem cell development is the same. :thumbsup:
 
kyrani, any willingness to answer this?

The first one, the stage 4 ovarian cancer with metastasis to the uterus, cervix, bowel and both lungs was the only time I was diagnosed by doctors. And the first time they got it wrong. They wanted to operate on me saying it was uterine cancer. I rejected that and got a second opinion. And that was when the full diagnosis was done.

From then on I knew I was on my own because I was facing some toxic doctors in with the people against me. And not only that I strongly suspect that there are some corrupt politicians involved.

You might want to say how do I know they were cancers. Apart from my investigations using Vipassana, many of the cancers were palpable, as for example in the bowel, visible as in the case of skin cancer and big lumps in the case of bone cancer. And some were painful. I documented what I could with photographs.

And apart from that there was obvious comment made to me in a variety of ways that they were trying to cause me to die of cancer.

The important thing that I have to do is show in medical /scientific terms how and why the stem cells transform into cancer stem cells and how and why the reverse back to normal stem cells. This means to have a theory independent of my own case. And to have the theory tested and verified. I am on my own here too because there won't be funding from any pharmaceutical company nor government body. Maybe private funding.

However in the mean time I believe I will reach people with stage 4 cancers, as I had in the beginning, which were incurable by medical means, and I will help the humane ones get well again by deliberately effecting spontaneous remissions. Then the word will get around and governments and the ethical scientists, who are downtrodden at present, will be able to do the testing and verify my theory. :thumbsup:
 
"Medical professionals" are government agents!

EDIT: I swear I typed that after reading Emily Cat's post and before seeing Kyrani's answer. Where's my million, Randi?
 
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"Medical professionals" are government agents!

EDIT: I swear I typed that after reading Emily Cat's post and before seeing Kyrani's answer. Where's my million, Randi?

All of them are pharmaceutical company agents or should I say those that print money by exploiting people's suffering.

Randi will want to test you under "the right condtions", they being the ones that ensure he gets to keep his million dollars. :)
 
You are thinking along the lines of pills and medical procedures that are tested in a drug trial. This is not the same. You have it wrong.

You don't need to do a clinical trial to see the processes involved in breathing or heart function or the inflammatory response. You may study more than one person's system or animal's system but you can see what happens in one system.

Many different combinations of beliefs and emotional conditions are involved in different cases but the process of cancer stem cell development is the same. :thumbsup:

Sorry, I think this way, if you want to say that the placebo effect or something else is a causative factor for cancer leaving a body then you need to account for the confounding factors. This applies to any causal agent in any situation.

And this is another unsupported assertion "the process of cancer stem cell development is the same"
 
All of them are pharmaceutical company agents or should I say those that print money by exploiting people's suffering.

Randi will want to test you under "the right condtions", they being the ones that ensure he gets to keep his million dollars. :)

Actually right conditions means a setup that wasn't flimsily constructed in a backyard.

Double blind, Scientific and all that jazz.
 
There is a push to try and say that a placebo is all about how a patient is treated and the doctors support and blah, blah, blah, when they know full well that IF a person BELIEVES that whatever they are given, will make them well again, they will get well again. It is not hard. The person stops reacting and relaxes so they return to resting metabolism, which means the bodily reactivity is gone... i.e., health is restored.

SEEN in DRUG TRIALS.
Dr Rankin MD https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWQfe__fNbs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tu9nJmr4Xs
both are short videos less than 20mins.

The second passage has NOTHING to do with the first.

I do not recommend placebo for cancer :) but there has been evidence of people recovering while ever they believed that a drug or dummy drug, given to them, will make them well. Once they began to believe it wouldn't work or heard that it wouldn't work from some authority figure, such as another doctor, the placebo failed.

This was according to the Mr Wright case. And it is not the same as the placebo seen in drug trial because in this case it was not a positive suggestion from patients but the patient own belief. Mr Wright went to his doctor demanding to be given the drug and followed the research on it in the news. That is way different from being given a drug with a suggestion that he would get well by his doctor.

BUT there is also evidence documented in medical journals of another 3,500, which is archived at Noetic Sciences. :thumbsup:



I started to write a reply to the above, but I notice that others here have already made most of the same remarks that I would have made about your posts, beliefs, and ideas of what constitutes credible evidence in medical science.

However on a different note - a few pages back I replied to one of your posts saying that your claims about healing by "belief" sounded very similar to so-called "faith healing", which usually involves the belief that a heavenly God is always the person who ultimately decides whether people recover or die. And you replied accusing me of "babbling on about God", as if you yourself had never mentioned God and had no such religious beliefs that could be influencing your posts.

So just out of interest, I checked back to some of your earlier posts in this thread and immediately found you saying the following -


Worship matters because the Universal Being created conscious beings to have physical experiences with the created universes, i.e., for the Universal Being's own play. It enters into the universes and then looks back at Itself and this is possible by love.

The 13th century Sufi, Najm al-Din Kubra explains it this way:

"When the lover is annihilated in Love,
his love becomes one with the Love of the Beloved,
and then there is no lover left,
his /her flight and love to God are by God's Love to him/her
and not to Him by him/her.


I think that shows that it's you, and not me, who has been babbling on here about your belief in God.
 
Sorry, I think this way, if you want to say that the placebo effect or something else is a causative factor for cancer leaving a body then you need to account for the confounding factors. This applies to any causal agent in any situation.

And this is another unsupported assertion "the process of cancer stem cell development is the same"

It is useless talking to someone who doesn't understand the basics. Goodbye.
 
I replied to one of your posts saying that your claims about healing by "belief" sounded very similar to so-called "faith healing", which usually involves the belief that a heavenly God is always the person who ultimately decides whether people recover or die. .

God does not decided whether a person recovers or dies. God is not about driving puppets.

A belief that a pill can make you will is faith healing. It is the simplest form of placebo. As I said to someone earlier, the pharmaceutical drug is measured against placebo.. the pharmaceutical drug has to be better than faith healing. And sometimes the placebo is seen to be better or as good as the drug!:D

You are the one babbling.
 
There is an army standing against me and they involve a few corrupt federal police. They have recruited toxic relatives and it's been going on now since 1994. The first corrupt policeman that became involved was pointed out to me in 2002 and done to try and scare me.

These days they are also trying to recruit people on some forums and try to use responses made to me with hashed meanings.

The irony is that if they had never attacked me I would not have been able to wise up to their foul play, document it and put it on the web. :D

However they will fail. I know with certainty that I will be able to bring the matter to the public and expose the evil sub-culture and the medical fraud. :thumbsup:


If the above is not a joke, then it looks like a pretty extreme case of paranoia and delusion. Which would certainly explain your obsession with claiming all sorts of medical conspiracy theories.

Either way, it probably shows why people here should not spend much time reading your posts or taking you seriously. :rolleyes:
 
The one thing I learned from Michel H's endless telepathy thread is that there are some people who cannot be helped by amateurs, no matter how patient and well meaning are their attempts to explain the nature of reality. When someone has left reality so far behind that it's no longer in their sat nav, professional help is required.
 
It is useless talking to someone who doesn't understand the basics. Goodbye.

That is not a very good means of conducting a discussion, there are multiple variants that effect how some stem cell grow into cancer.

I am sorry that you are not here for a discussion, just a monologue.
 
The one thing I learned from Michel H's endless telepathy thread is that there are some people who cannot be helped by amateurs, no matter how patient and well meaning are their attempts to explain the nature of reality. When someone has left reality so far behind that it's no longer in their sat nav, professional help is required.


I have not seen that thread (Michel H telepathy), but in almost all the threads that I've followed on this forum, and before that all the similar threads on Rational Skepticism (and also on the earlier Richard Dawkins Forum), the most obvious characteristic is how adults are hugely resistant to changing their mind about anything, no matter much and how strong the evidence against them.

That does not seem to apply to children however (say, up to age of about 12 or 13). Up to that age (very approx.) kids often believe various crazy things which they have been told either by adults or by other kids. But most of those daft or unlikely ideas are instantly discarded when someone more convincing explains why the belief is mistaken.

But once any of us reach a more adult age, it seems virtually impossible dissuade anyone from even the most bizarre and nutty beliefs.

There might be any number of reasons for that, of course. And I suppose one possibility is that kids don't really have much "invested" in trying to show that their opinions are right about everything. They understand that they are "growing up", learning & progressing etc. Whereas adults are supposed to have reached the age of being more responsible for what they say and do, and they care much more about being made to look foolish by having to admit that some strongly held belief was actually just silly naive nonsense. IOW, adults have more to lose in terms of public credibility (or they think they have more to lose, or act as if they have).

Anyway, in some senses it's perhaps unfortunate that adults cannot be more like children when it comes to admitting mistaken beliefs and ditching such ideas pretty quickly instead of hanging on like grim death.
 
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