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The existence of God and the efficacy of prayer

I looked up the term that was used by the leader of the group.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Constellations

When I read the article I would dismiss it as nonsense.

Taking part in a few, and seeing the results is a different matter.

In one session, I was given a part silently and stood there. I smelled gunpowder and felt chaos and fear. Afterwards I was told I represented "war", a major influence in the life of the seekers father.

I note that you were told that you "represented war" after you "smelled gunpowder and felt chaos and fear."

Did you mention "gunpowder, chaos and fear" to anyone, at all, before you were told you represented war?

Or were you perhaps interviewed, asked what you experienced, answered "gunpower, chaos and fear" and only then told that you represented war?

Also, when did it come out that "war" was a major influence in the life of the seeker's father? Was it known from the start, or did it only get mentioned after everyone had spoken about his or her experience?

"Major influence" is a pretty broad term. My father was in the military during the Korean war. My father-in-law was in the Navy during WWII. My brother-in-law was a Marine during the Vietnam war.

I could say to just about anyone, "I sense that war was a major influence in the life of a close relative" and likely be right.

Look up cold reading. You might find it informative.
 
Where do I speak for God? I give my experiences, and my hypotheses as to why apparently supernatural events happen without science being able to explain them.

Atheists think they have the answers, but they do not realize that they do not accept that the events happened the way I said they do. I am accused of lies, mistake and delusion. Same for any one else that may have mystical experiences.

You are also accused of wishful thinking and gullibility.

Responded to any emails from the Nigerian "Fedral Ministry of Finance" lately?
 
I note that you were told that you "represented war" after you "smelled gunpowder and felt chaos and fear."

Did you mention "gunpowder, chaos and fear" to anyone, at all, before you were told you represented war?

Or were you perhaps interviewed, asked what you experienced, answered "gunpower, chaos and fear" and only then told that you represented war?

Also, when did it come out that "war" was a major influence in the life of the seeker's father?

Or another possibility: You were told you represented war, and thinking back, you remembered there was gunpowder, chaos and fear, though you hadn't tokd anyone, or misremembered that you told someone. But the gunpowder,etc. was actually a false memory, produced afterward by being told you were representing war.

This kind of thing is common in all humans, so when we propose a fallible memory, it's not like accusing someone of a moral failure like lying.

Here's my false memory anecdote: we were portraying a historic event that happened in late November, but for practical scheduling reasons had to do it in October. It was outdoors in a wooded area, and required quite a bit of memorizing, ad lib, and focus over many hours. I kept in my mind that it was "really" November to orient myself in the historic context.

Months later, somebody showed me a picture of the event for the first time. I thought, there's a mistake. The trees in the picture have bright green leaves and none have fallen. I distinctly remember they were mostly brown and on the ground. This must be some other event.

I looked closer, and the photo showed some of us who had only come together for this event. It had to be real.

But I still "remember" the late November woods around us. Even though I knew it was October.

I just chalk it up to a memory glitch that makes an entertaining anecdote, rather than creating a story about supernatural portals to the past or whatever.

But it shows how odd memory is. Seeing the green leaves in the photo still hasn't erased my memory of November leaves.
 
If you're referring to the Ten Commandments, they actually don't mandate worship. They simply prohibit worshiping anything else.

OK, OK, might have slipped up there a tad. The Ten Commandments don't actually tell you to worship the guy but it is strongly implied. Later in the NT according to Luke it is more specific:

'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'
 
Where do I speak for God? I give my experiences, and my hypotheses as to why apparently supernatural events happen without science being able to explain them.
Atheists think they have the answers, but they do not realize that they do not accept that the events happened the way I said they do. I am accused of lies, mistake and delusion. Same for any one else that may have mystical experiences.



I don't believe that is true at all (the highlight above). I think science not only "can", but does explain all the claims that people make of so-called "supernatural" events.

Of course in most cases genuine research scientists cannot be bothered wasting time and money investigating such claims. But afaik, in the past all sorts of weird and "wonderful" claims have been investigated and shown to be quite obviously untrue nonsense.

But please, whatever you do, do not say that scientists cannot "prove" that all sorts of nutty claims never happened or that such things are absolutely 100% impossible in any sense at all under any conceivable conditions. Because that's not what science does ... that's not what anything or anyone ever does - nobody can literally "prove" anything at all in the sense of providing absolute 100% certainty.

Instead what science does, and all that any subject or anyone can ever do, is to uncover the evidence leading to the most probable explanation for anything ... in this case, the most probable explanation for any particular claims of the supernatural.

So just to summarise that - you are entirely wrong. Science most certainly can explain such things, and it's been doing that centuries.
 
(snip)So just to summarise that - you are entirely wrong. Science most certainly can explain such things, and it's been doing that centuries.

There are things that one can say are "tricks of the mind". There are other things such as very clear examples of mental telepathy, seeing a short way into the future, and telling someone that the cards say they hate their husband when all indications are that they do not, and finding lost items that others have given up on.

Don't bother asking for specifics. I have given them here before, and got all sorts of reasons why they could not have happened the way I said they did. Coincidence was a biggie, despite the astronomical odds.

Anyhow time for me to keep quiet for a while and let another theist or agnostic debate. My purpose is not to try to convert anyone, and this round is more of the same for me.
 
There's a huge difference: the peasant girl in question only has to learn one simple trick, and might easily do so by accident or trial and error, if not instructed by some other person. A professional magician has to master tricks that work for an audience of people who aren't vastly underestimating them (such as by assuming that because they're devout and poor, they couldn't possibly be resourceful enough to fool anyone educated—now that's hubris, and dehumanizing to boot—or be perceptive enough to weigh a little deception against the obvious resulting benefits to their impoverished family when the gifts and offerings start coming in).

I can walk a Slinky from hand to hand, which is a difficult stunt that few professional jugglers can do (because it's hard, and also because it's not part of their usual repertoire so they're not particularly motivated to learn it). I taught myself to do it when I was a kid, because I thought that's how you were supposed to play with a Slinky. (And because video games didn't exist yet.) Learning a trick or two isn't unusual for any child.

Consider the afflicted girls in the Salem witchcraft cases. By all accounts, their contortions and anguish were so dramatic that no one believed they could possibly be faking. (And, despite a recently popular idea, any actual disease such as ergotism is an unlikely explanation for it.) How could such devout hard-working village girls have learned such superb acting during their short lives? The naiveté implicit in that question led to many deaths. (Unless you believe, instead, that the girls really were being assaulted by the spectral forms of witches and the twenty people executed actually were guilty of casting those spells.)




And yet, in my experience, that exact kind of sin is easily forgiven by other people of comparable faith even when the deception is discovered, usually because "it brings people to God." There's no reason to think they couldn't think of the same rationalization themselves if the deception remains their secret.




Implausible: even though dying without food and water is something all people have in common and all cultures know, some people can live indefinitely without food or water if spirits are helping them.

Implausible: some people can fool people, especially when the people being fooled are also chauvinistically underestimating them because they're foreign, poor, devout, uneducated, and/or young.

Which one are you claiming is more implausible, now?




Correct.




Incorrect, for the same reason the previous quote was correct.

The only hypothesis that "observing the situation and daily life" of the mystic can falsify is that the mystic is insane or deluded; that is, the mystic is eating food and drinking water normally and openly without realizing it. For other hypotheses including deliberate trickery (and actual spirit intervention for that matter), observing daily life is a useless test. Did you know that people can eat and drink at night?




So they disproved the delusion hypothesis, which no one was suggesting in the first place. That has some small value, but does nothing to distinguish between the two "implausible" hypotheses mentioned above.




They were educated idiots if they thought that. I asked what training their respective educations gave them in detecting subterfuge; the obvious answer (which you've offered nothing to contradict) is none, nor is there any account of them putting any procedure in place, even the most rudimentary such as round-the-clock observation, to help do so. If the examiners had been police detectives, magicians, guards from an involuntary drug rehab facility, retail stop-loss (anti shoplifting) personnel, people who actually trained and experienced in how deceptions are done and how to figure them out, and/or if they'd actually made some attempt to study what was going on instead of look in and say, "nope, no ham sandwiches in sight," then you might have a case.




God, as usually defined, can do anything. Including not choose people for special purposes and not secretly administer intraspiritual feedings. So an argument about what God can do advances no position in particular. The evidence that God actually does that is lacking.




"You would always want more" is a nasty claim, though it's common enough that we usually take little notice of it. Do you refuse to tip waitstaff because no matter how much you tip, they "would always want more?" How about giving to the poor—even Jesus said, basically, that they will always want more.

It's not about what anyone wants, it's about what's fair or deserved or sufficient.

You tell tales of miracles that I'm supposed to accept as well-evidenced because they were investigated in a way that could not possibly rule out the most likely explanation of subterfuge, and address my claim of insufficient evidence by tarring me with the terrible sin of "wanting more." It's not that your evidence (despite obviously lacking in obvious ways) is lacking, it's that I'm greedy! I suppose "arrogant" and "not knowing my place" will soon be wafting my way as well.

Show me sufficient evidence and I won't want any more. For example, I have more than sufficient evidence that my computer works via electronic semiconductor circuitry, that life on earth evolved, that Antarctica exists even though I've never seen it with my own eyes, that the sun is a star, and that my exhaled breath contains a substance, which is also found in many rocks, that plants take in and use to build their forms. (Each of those facts would have astounded, confounded, and possibly delighted the greatest and wisest of mystics and prophets throughout the ages, had they been able to learn them). I might want to know more about the details of any of those things but I don't need or want any more evidence that they're true. So your "would always want more" is a libel as well as a flimsy excuse for crappy evidence.

Top post Myriad, I'm not surprised PartSkeptic ignored it.
 
Or another possibility: You were told you represented war, and thinking back, you remembered there was gunpowder, chaos and fear, though you hadn't tokd anyone, or misremembered that you told someone. But the gunpowder,etc. was actually a false memory, produced afterward by being told you were representing war.

This kind of thing is common in all humans, so when we propose a fallible memory, it's not like accusing someone of a moral failure like lying.

Here's my false memory anecdote: we were portraying a historic event that happened in late November, but for practical scheduling reasons had to do it in October. It was outdoors in a wooded area, and required quite a bit of memorizing, ad lib, and focus over many hours. I kept in my mind that it was "really" November to orient myself in the historic context.

Months later, somebody showed me a picture of the event for the first time. I thought, there's a mistake. The trees in the picture have bright green leaves and none have fallen. I distinctly remember they were mostly brown and on the ground. This must be some other event.

I looked closer, and the photo showed some of us who had only come together for this event. It had to be real.

But I still "remember" the late November woods around us. Even though I knew it was October.

I just chalk it up to a memory glitch that makes an entertaining anecdote, rather than creating a story about supernatural portals to the past or whatever.

But it shows how odd memory is. Seeing the green leaves in the photo still hasn't erased my memory of November leaves.


I get your points, and they are reasonable. There was no suggestion at play or false memory, but let us leave it there. I was not told what I represented. I smelled gunpowder. At the end (within half and hour) I was told I represented war. These are key points one does not forget.

The person got some interesting answers, which I doubt any conventional therapy would have introduced as explanations.

BTW. I have a way above average memory. I could read a University or school text book overnight and remember it for the exam.

As I have gotten older I have memory problems, but they are short term mostly.

When I studied and experimented with hypnotism as a teenager, I learned that a person is capable of subconsciously hearing another person "think" by detecting them sub-vocalizing (their vocal chords are "speaking" at very low sound levels). That in turn could trigger the "thoughts" of gunpowder smells.
 
Top post Myriad, I'm not surprised PartSkeptic ignored it.


You forced me to read his response carefully. I skimmed it before.

I am not sure what response is required.

I do not have evidence that would satisfy you or any skeptic. You choose to discount my anecdotes, and that is not unreasonable. My points were mostly that I do not believe out of fear, or because I wish to, or because someone has impressed me.

I have a lifetime of my own experiences, and have tried to explain them. Some have possible non-supernatural explanations, but some are too striking to me to apply those.
 
There are things that one can say are "tricks of the mind". There are other things such as very clear examples of mental telepathy, seeing a short way into the future, and telling someone that the cards say they hate their husband when all indications are that they do not, and finding lost items that others have given up on.

Don't bother asking for specifics. I have given them here before, and got all sorts of reasons why they could not have happened the way I said they did. Coincidence was a biggie, despite the astronomical odds.

Anyhow time for me to keep quiet for a while and let another theist or agnostic debate. My purpose is not to try to convert anyone, and this round is more of the same for me.


No need for you to explain it again. It will be perfectly sufficient if you just give me the links to genuine scientific research papers where they have confirmed that supernatural telepathic powers are real.
 
You forced me to read his response carefully. I skimmed it before.

I am not sure what response is required.

I do not have evidence that would satisfy you or any skeptic. You choose to discount my anecdotes, and that is not unreasonable. My points were mostly that I do not believe out of fear, or because I wish to, or because someone has impressed me.

I have a lifetime of my own experiences, and have tried to explain them. Some have possible non-supernatural explanations, but some are too striking to me to apply those.

But your anecdotes are explainable. For example, the "meetings" you claim to have attended are intentionally designed to induce the "experiences" you claim to have had.

There is nothing even vaguely paranormal about it.

Tarot? Oh, come on.

You seem to labour under the error that you are the only one to have done such things of those here.

You are not.
 
But your anecdotes are explainable. For example, the "meetings" you claim to have attended are intentionally designed to induce the "experiences" you claim to have had.

There is nothing even vaguely paranormal about it.

Tarot? Oh, come on.

You seem to labour under the error that you are the only one to have done such things of those here.

You are not.


Or to rephrase for you - "Bah! Humbug!"
 
Or to rephrase for you - "Bah! Humbug!"

Incorrect.

I know what you think you "experienced" having had similar experiences. I know what their cause is. The cause has been explained to you more than once in this very thread.

I studied the tarot closely many years ago. Turns out to be a form of cold reading.

And so on. I could make a long list of the various supernatural claims I have checked out and even believed at various times.

So let me translate your trite "Bah, Humbug!" reply.
Your spoiling my woo-woo ego trip built on baseless nonsense. Won't you please let me believe whatever makes me feel good? Why do you want me to feel bad?

The answer is, sure, if believing abject nonsense floats your boat, go ahead.
What you believe in the privacy of your own brain is your business.

However, it is a very different thing when you arrive on a public, skeptic discussion forum and promote nonsense as having some value. Then you are publicly promoting nonsense and deserve the critique it generates and any readers deserve to see that you have no valid response to rational criticism other than...
Or to rephrase for you - "Bah! Humbug!"

The more people realise that the woo-peddler must perforce retreat into the tactics of the schoolyard in defense of whichever belief it is they wish to propound, the better it is for everyone.
 
It is interesting how in science, one does the best to answer a question even if the answer is "I don't have an answer to that question?"
The agent of inquiry in science is the personal self, which seeks to know intellectually, using reason and logic.

The agent of inquiry in spiritual matters is conscious being, which seeks to shed all intellectual knowing, since the path to awakening is abrupt and given by Grace.

Why does God need a starship . . . .Why would worship matter to a being who created the universe.

Worship matters because the Universal Being created conscious beings to have physical experiences with the created universes, i.e., for the Universal Being's own play. It enters into the universes and then looks back at Itself and this is possible by love.

The 13th century Sufi, Najm al-Din Kubra explains it this way:

"When the lover is annihilated in Love,
his love becomes one with the Love of the Beloved,
and then there is no lover left,
his /her flight and love to God are by God's Love to him/her
and not to Him by him/her.
 

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