CCW holder killed reaching for ID.

[Ron Swanson]

Crawford was not stealing toys.

Many people think he was ... how could he cash out the toy with no bar code? (it's on the box not the toy)

 

[Ron Swanson]

So let's change the law.

Also cannot argue with that ... uniform laws in all areas that specify certain procedure would be GREAT ... but Police don't even like co-operating on criminal investigations .. always worrying about who "gets the collar"

YES we need simple straight forward laws to regulate ALL the police forces.

 

[Ron Swanson]

I find it disconcerting that you get pulled over so often that you have a ritual for traffic stops. I'm 44 and I've been pulled over maybe 5-6 times in my life.

Well maybe your driving skills are much better than mine?

Or you always have valid tags and tires with lots of tread etc

Or you live and drive in nice neighbourhoods?

and you don't race, drift or spin your tires for no reason

 

[Ron Swanson]

Doesn't matter; what he did is not a capital offense or deserving of a lethal response, whether or not I would or would not do the same.

Again, stop being foolish.

Cannot argue with that ... just because he did something stupid and illegal (concealing merchandise [by removing it from packing] is the same offence as shoplifting) ....

... Is NOT grounds for being shot ... that thought is indeed foolish ... but texting while walking into traffic is not a capital offence ... yet people die from THAT every year too.

Stupid game stupid prize

 

[Ron Swanson]

Do we know that Crawford was the one who did this?

Yes see other replays it's on video ..

... he WAS indeed stealing the toy (iIMO) .. witch is actually fine ... he should have gotten a shoplifting (we call it "provincial offences summary conviction ticket" here) NOT shot.

But sometimes the game plays out poorly

 

[Mumbles]

Many people think he was ... how could he cash out the toy with no bar code? (it's on the box not the toy)

Since the item was apparently put on shelves with no box, he would use whatever method Walmart provided when they stocked it, and these "many" people are obviously wrong.

 

[Ron Swanson]

Well, I am glad that you are much better than I am and never play stupid games

Where did you get that idea ... you think someone has to be Picasso to recognize art?

I play stupid games as such constantly ... I bill my self as "a punk kid who managed to make it to 40 years old"

But when the stupid prize comes? (as it HAS on occasion) I will accept it with any grace I can muster.

 

[Ron Swanson]

You're playing a stupid game right now. What stupid prizes do you expect you might earn as a result?

I don't understand what you mean?

 

[Mumbles]

He gave him THREE chances to simply state his name ... and he answered with his first name only posed as a question

If they wanted his last name, they should have asked for his last name.

I suggest people in disadvantaged areas practice complying ... if you relax your arms when a cop grabs you it goes easier on everyone.

My suggestion is that police not expect everyone to be ready for them at a moment's notice, and to read their minds as to what they want all of a sudden. Seems like this is a far more reasonable expectation, particularly given these cases where the cop can easily prepare for what they're about to do, while the person they attack has little or no clue what the problem is.

 

[Ron Swanson]

Since the item was apparently put on shelves with no box, he would use whatever method Walmart provided when they stocked it, and these "many" people are obviously wrong.

Yes I stand corrected ... if Crawford HIMSELF had of opened the box they would have had it on video so he obviously did not do that as I posted ... that product is normally sold in a box ... so it's odd it was open, but we do not know why ... sorry for the confusion.

Here in Canada ... pellet rifles air guns, BB guns etc. are held under lock and key and are carried by store staff to the cash checkout,.

 

[Ron Swanson]

If they wanted his last name, they should have asked for his last name.

That's a stretch in my opinion ... technically you're require to give first, last, middle initial, birth date, and home address as well ... maybe it's not common knowledge? ... but every kid in my neighbourhood knows this.

My suggestion is that police not expect everyone to be ready for them at a moment's notice, and to read their minds as to what they want all of a sudden. Seems like this is a far more reasonable expectation, particularly given these cases where the cop can easily prepare for what they're about to do, while the person they attack has little or no clue what the problem is.

Again YES I agree ... what do the Cops need?? weekly training .. if so? make them do it! ... it's MUCH cheaper than the resulting law suits!

 

[Christian Klippel]

Have you read the US DoJ report into policing in Ferguson? It contains lots of examples like that.

No, only heard about parts of it's contents. Do you have a link to it at hand?

Greetings,

Chris

 

[quadraginta]

Many people think he was ... how could he cash out the toy with no bar code? (it's on the box not the toy)

"Need a price check on check-out 4."

Things get to the register with damaged or missing price tags/bar codes all the time. I know this because it is one of the ways I often find myself stuck interminably in what had looked like a short check-out line. The cashier picks up their PA or intercom mike and requests someone to go and check the price in the sales aisle. I stand in the line behind whoever is trying to buy whatever it is and wait for some stockboy to get to the check-out, find out what he's looking for, goes to wherever those items are being displayed (usually on the farthest side of the store from where we are), and then makes it back.

This has never happened to you? You lead a charmed life.

 

[quadraginta]

Yes see other replays it's on video ..

... he WAS indeed stealing the toy (iIMO) .. witch is actually fine ... he should have gotten a shoplifting (we call it "provincial offences summary conviction ticket" here) NOT shot.

But sometimes the game plays out poorly

It isn't theft until he leaves the store premises without paying. In this case he wasn't even acting furtively or making any attempt to conceal the merchandise.

Neither of which would have gotten him busted for shoplifting anyway, until he actually went out the door without paying.

The man had done absolutely nothing wrong except get into the sights of a jacked-up out-of-control cop ... while being black.

 

[GodMark2]

It isn't theft until he leaves the store premises without paying.

In many states, removal of a price tag or inventory control device (RFID, etc) is sufficient to be considered shoplifting.

 

[quadraginta]

In many states, removal of a price tag or inventory control device (RFID, etc) is sufficient to be considered shoplifting.

As long as they can prove you removed it.

If they can be that certain the simplest thing is to wait until the thief walks out the door. That way there's no doubt.

If they walk out the door with something that has had it's ICD removed or tampered with, so much the better.

That eliminates the "I forgot I had it." excuse.

 

[Hlafordlaes]

Cannot argue with that ... just because he did something stupid and illegal (concealing merchandise [by removing it from packing] is the same offence as shoplifting) ....

... Is NOT grounds for being shot ... that thought is indeed foolish ... but texting while walking into traffic is not a capital offence ... yet people die from THAT every year too.

Stupid game stupid prize

Given that it is stupid America that has guns and/or items looking like lethal weapons sitting unprotected on store shelves, the first stupid prize goes to the general public, who have yet to man up and start processing simple facts.

The next stupid prize goes to the racist caller who can see white shoppers look at merchandise, but thinks blacks who do so are criminal terrorists.

The next stupid prize goes to the cops for shooting a kid who had already dropped the toy.

The final stupid prize goes to non-analytical self-serving BS that justifies the death of innocents.

 

[jimbob]

No, only heard about parts of it's contents. Do you have a link to it at hand?

Greetings,

Chris

Yes,

Here is the summary, and links to the full PDF

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/just...civil-rights-investigations-ferguson-missouri

The department found that the FPD has a pattern or practice of:

• Conducting stops without reasonable suspicion and arrests without probable cause in violation of the Fourth Amendment;
  
  
• Interfering with the right to free expression in violation of the First Amendment; and
  
  
• Using unreasonable force in violation of the Fourth Amendment.

The department found that Ferguson Municipal Court has a pattern or practice of:

• Focusing on revenue over public safety, leading to court practices that violate the 14th Amendment’s due process and equal protection requirements.
  
  
• Court practices exacerbating the harm of Ferguson’s unconstitutional police practices and imposing particular hardship upon Ferguson’s most vulnerable residents, especially upon those living in or near poverty.Minor offenses can generate crippling debts, result in jail time because of an inability to pay and result in the loss of a driver’s license, employment, or housing.

The department found a pattern or practice of racial bias in both the FPD and municipal court:

• The harms of Ferguson’s police and court practices are borne disproportionately by African Americans and that this disproportionate impact is avoidable.
  
  
• Ferguson’s harmful court and police practices are due, at least in part, to intentional discrimination, as demonstrated by direct evidence of racial bias and stereotyping about African Americans by certain Ferguson police and municipal court officials.

I strongly recommend the full report because the 100-odd pages put a very strong case with lots of individual examples (any one of which should have been police misconduct at best) as well as statistics - I have quoted egregious examples in other threads
Spoilers for brevity:

In Ferguson it was so blatant that this could be discounted. I have posted quotes upthread but am on a phone.

I would agree that the Ferguson PD was corrupt as well as racist but it was clearly racist.

One also needs significant logical contortions to explain away the wider statistics.

Right, they sit there being all menacing by being black and having a penis, what can they expect?

I expect, rather I demand that the police and court act in a very professional manner. Any court or officer who sentences or arrests based on 'posture' doesn't deserve to be employed. It's a facile handwave.

And you don't even have evidence of this difference. It absolute doesn't account for the difference, nor should it.

Indeed - the DoJ report was aware of a lot of the potential criticisms and addressed them at the time.
Here's one quote from the report - showing how violent whites were dealt with:

During our investigation, FPD officials told us that their police tactics are responsive to the scenario at hand. But records suggest that, where a suspect or group of suspects is white, FPD applies a different calculus, typically resulting in a more measured law enforcement response. In one 2012 incident, for example, officers reported responding to a fight in progress at a local bar that involved white suspects. Officers reported encountering “40-50 people actively fighting, throwing bottles and glasses, as well as chairs.” The report noted that “one subject had his ear bitten off.” While the responding officers reported using force, they only used “minimal baton and flashlight strikes as well as fists, muscling techniques and knee strikes.” While the report states that “due to the amount of subjects fighting, no physical arrests were possible,” it notes also that four subjects were brought to the station for “safekeeping.” While we have found other evidence that FPD later issued a wanted for two individuals as a result of the incident, FPD’s response stands in stark contrast to the actions officers describe taking in many incidents involving black suspects, some of which we earlier described.

And this

Ferguson’s Law Enforcement Practices Are Motivated in Part by Discriminatory Intent in Violation of the Fourteenth Amendment and Other Federal Laws
The race-based disparities created by Ferguson’s law enforcement practices cannot be explained by chance or by any difference in the rates at which people of different races adhere to the law. These disparities occur, at least in part, because Ferguson law enforcement practices are directly shaped and perpetuated by racial bias. Those practices thus operate in violation of the Fourteenth Amendment’s Equal Protection Clause, which prohibits discriminatory policing on the basis of race. Whren, 517 U.S. at 813; Johnson v. Crooks, 326 F.3d 995, 999 (8th Cir. 2003).47
An Equal Protection Clause violation can occur where, as here, the official administration of facially neutral laws or policies results in a discriminatory effect that is motivated, at least in part, by a discriminatory purpose. See Washington v. Davis, 426 U.S. 229, 239-40 (1976). In assessing whether a given practice stems from a discriminatory purpose, courts conduct a “sensitive inquiry into such circumstantial and direct evidence of intent as may be available,” including historical background, contemporaneous statements by decision makers, and substantive departures from normal procedure. Vill. of Arlington Heights, 429 U.S. at 266; United States v. Bell, 86 F.3d 820, 823 (8th Cir. 1996). To violate the Equal Protection Clause, official action need not rest solely on racially discriminatory purposes; rather, official action violates the Equal Protection Clause if it is motivated, at least in part, by discriminatory purpose. Personnel Adm’r of Mass. v. Feeney, 442 U.S. 256, 279 (1979).

We have uncovered significant evidence showing that racial bias has impermissibly played a role in shaping the actions of police and court officials in Ferguson. That evidence, detailed below, includes: 1) the consistency and magnitude of the racial disparities found throughout police and court enforcement actions; 2) direct communications by police supervisors and court officials that exhibit racial bias, particularly against African Americans; 3) a number of other communications by police and court officials that reflect harmful racial stereotypes; 4) the background and historic context surrounding FPD’s racially disparate enforcement practices; 5)the fact that City, police, and court officials failed to take any meaningful steps to evaluate or address the race-based impact of its law enforcement practices despite longstanding and widely reported racial disparities, and instead consistently reapplied police and court practices known to disparately impact African Americans.

The race-based disparities we have found are not isolated or aberrational; rather, they exist in nearly every aspect of Ferguson police and court operations. As discussed above, statistical analysis shows that African Americans are more likely to be searched but less likely to have contraband found on them; more likely to receive a citation following a stop and more likely to receive multiple citations at once; more likely to be arrested; more likely to have force used against them; more likely to have their case last longer and require more encounters with the municipal court; more likely to have an arrest warrant issued against them by the municipal court; and more likely to be arrested solely on the basis of an outstanding warrant. As noted above, many of these disparities would occur by chance less than one time in 1000.

b. Direct Evidence of Racial Bias
Our investigation uncovered direct evidence of racial bias in the communications of influential Ferguson decision makers. In email messages and during interviews, several court and law enforcement personnel expressed discriminatory views and intolerance with regard to race, religion, and national origin. The content of these communications is unequivocally derogatory, dehumanizing, and demonstrative of impermissible bias.

FPD also has not significantly altered its use-of-force tactics, even though FPD records make clear that current force decisions disparately impact black suspects, and that officers appear to assess threat differently depending upon the race of the suspect. FPD, for example, has not reviewed or revised its canine program, even though available records show that canine officers have exclusively set their dogs against black individuals, often in cases where doing so was not justified by the danger presented. In many incidents in which officers used significant levels of force, the facts as described by the officers themselves did not appear to support the force used, especially in light of the fact that less severe tactics likely would have been equally effective. In some of these incidents, law enforcement experts with whom we consulted could find no explanation other than race to explain the severe tactics used.

Anyone who doubts where the blame lies needs to read the report without ideological blinkers.

You know, the more I think about this the less plausible it sounds.

Why would the residential population be the baseline? Wouldn't the relevant metric be the proportion of drivers on the roads?

I have no idea what the Ferguson area is like, so what is the racial makeup of the surrounding towns? If they are mostly white then you'd expect drivers in Ferguson to be white in a higher proportion than the population of Ferguson. If they are mostly black then you'd expect drivers in Ferguson more likely to be black than the population of Ferguson, and thus blacks would be more likely to be pulled over without any racial discrimination occurring.

After all, drivers don't just drive in the town they live in. Particularly in tightly-packed small suburbs in a metropolitan area a driver likely drives through many towns during their daily commute.

So, I don't think this statistic is really relevant without knowing more information than is available so far.

eta: one other possibility is age demographics. If the whites are on average 60 years old and blacks are on average 30 years old (I'm talking about drivers here) then blacks are more likely to get stopped more simply because younger drivers are more reckless, prone to speeding, etc. And given how quickly Ferguson's race demographics has changed in the last 20 years such a large disparity wouldn't surprise me at all, as younger people are more likely to move frequently while older people tend to stay put.

St Louis city is 47.9% black
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/29/29510.html

St Louis county is 23.7% black
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/29/29189.html


Ferguson is 67.4% black

If anything, out of town drivers would be more likely to be white, flattering FPD

Just got to this section of the PDF - I'm only on page 64

'FPD reported 11,610 vehicle stops between October 2012 and October 2014. African Americans accounted for 85%, or 9,875, of those stops, despite making up only 67% of the population. White individuals made up 15%, or 1,735, of stops during that period, despite representing 29% of the population. These differences indicate that FPD traffic stop practices may disparately impact black drivers.³⁹ Even setting aside the question of whether there are racial disparities in FPD’s traffic stop practices, however, the data collected during those stops reliably shows statistically significant racial disparities in the outcomes people receive after being stopped. Unlike with vehicle stops, assessing the disparate impact of post-stop outcomes—such as the rate at which stops result in citations, searches, or arrests—is not dependent on population data or on assumptions about differential offending rates by race; instead, the enforcement actions imposed against stopped black drivers are compared directly to the enforcement actions imposed against stopped white drivers.'​

'39 While there are limitations to using basic population data as a benchmark when evaluating whether there are racial disparities in vehicle stops, it is sufficiently reliable here. In fact, in Ferguson, black drivers might account for less of the driving pool than would be expected from overall population rates because a lower proportion of blacks than whites is at or above the minimum driving age. See 2009-2013 5-Year American Community Survey, U.S. Census Bureau (2015) (showing higher proportion of black population in under-15 and under-19 age categories than white population). Ferguson officials have told us that they believe that black drivers account for more of the driving pool than their 67% share of the population because the driving pool also includes drivers traveling from neighboring municipalities—many of which have higher black populations than Ferguson. Our investigation casts doubt upon that claim. An analysis of zip-code data from the 53,850 summonses FPD issued from January 1, 2009 to October 14, 2014, shows that the African-American makeup for all zip codes receiving a summons—weighted by population size and the number of summonses received by people from that zip code—is 63%. Thus, there is substantial reason to believe that the share of drivers in Ferguson who are black is in fact lower than population data suggests.'
ETA:

WTAF:

Notably, on 14 occasions FPD listed the only reason for an arrest following a traffic stop as “resisting arrest.” In all 14 of those cases, the person arrested was black.

I'll put this gem outside the spoiler as well:

Notably, on 14 occasions FPD listed the only reason for an arrest following a traffic stop as “resisting arrest.” In all 14 of those cases, the person arrested was black.

Those are the bits I've found with a quick google search, but there were plenty more because the evidence is so shocking.

The behaviour of the court officials in particular - for example voiding traffic fines for friends whilst simultaneously claiming that blacks don't take responsibility for their actions and sending racist jokes on their work email accounts.

Also the number of traffic stops:

It's nearly farcical, the protester's view that police are the problem, when they make this sort of thing possible for the criminal element that's the actual problem. Useful idiots indeed.

It is possible for there to be more than one problem.

Apart from the riots, I don't know what the crime rate is.

The police force is a problem. That is what the DoJ report said.

Putting it crudely - the police were acting as an extortion racket

'Between July 1, 2010, and June 30, 2014, the City of Ferguson issued approximately 90,000 citations and summonses for municipal violations. Notably, the City issued nearly 50% more citations in the last year of that time period than it did in the first. This increase in enforcement has not been driven by a rise in serious crime. While the ticketing rate has increased dramatically, the number of charges for many of the most serious offenses covered by the municipal code—e.g., Assault, Driving While Intoxicated, and Stealing—has remained relatively constant'​

'In fiscal year 2009, 16,178 new cases were filed, and 8,727 were resolved. In 2014, by contrast, 24,256 new offenses were filed, and 10,975 offenses were resolved.'​

'FERGUSON LAW ENFORCEMENT EFFORTS ARE FOCUSED ON GENERATING REVENUE
City officials have consistently set maximizing revenue as the priority for Ferguson’s law enforcement activity. Ferguson generates a significant and increasing amount of revenue from the enforcement of code provisions. The City has budgeted for, and achieved, significant increases in revenue from municipal code enforcement over the last several years, and these increases are projected to continue. Of the $11.07 million in general fund revenue the City collected in fiscal year 2010, $1.38 million came from fines and fees collected by the court; similarly, in fiscal year 2011, the City’s general fund revenue of $11.44 million included $1.41 million from fines and fees. In its budget for fiscal year 2012, however, the City predicted that revenue from municipal fines and fees would increase over 30% from the previous year’s amount to $1.92 million; the court exceeded that target, collecting $2.11 million. In its budget for fiscal year 2013, the City budgeted for fines and fees to yield $2.11 million; the court exceeded that target as well, collecting $2.46 million. For 2014, the City budgeted for the municipal court to generate $2.63 million in revenue. The City has not yet made public the actual revenue collected that year, although budget documents forecasted lower revenue than was budgeted. Nonetheless, for fiscal year 2015, the City’s budget anticipates fine and fee revenues to account for $3.09 million of a projected $13.26 million in general fund revenues.8'​

'The report stated that the acting prosecutor had reviewed the City’s “high volume offenses” and “started recommending higher fines on these cases, and recommending probation only infrequently.” While the report stated that this recommendation was because of a “large volume of non-compliance,” the recommendation was in fact emphasized as one of several ways that the code enforcement system had been honed to produce more revenue.'​

'In combination with a high fine schedule, the City directs FPD to aggressively enforce the municipal code. City and police leadership pressure officers to write citations, independent of any public safety need, and rely on citation productivity to fund the City budget. In an email from March 2010, the Finance Director wrote to Chief Jackson that “unless ticket writing ramps up significantly before the end of the year, it will be hard to significantly raise collections next year. What are your thoughts? Given that we are looking at a substantial sales tax shortfall, it’s not an insignificant issue.” Chief Jackson responded that the City would see an increase in fines once more officers were hired and that he could target the $1.5 million forecast. Significantly, Chief Jackson stated that he was also “looking at different shift schedules which will place more officers on the street, which in turn will increase traffic enforcement per shift.” Shortly thereafter, FPD switched to the 12-hour shift schedule for its patrol officers, which FPD continues to use. Law enforcement experience has shown that this schedule makes community policing more difficult—a concern that we have also heard directly from FPD officers. Nonetheless, while FPD heavily considered the revenue implications of the 12-hour shift and certain other factors such as its impact on overtime and sick time usage, we have found no evidence that FPD considered the consequences for positive community engagement. The City’s 2014 budget itself stated that since December 2010, “the percent of [FPD] resources allocated to traffic enforcement has increased,” and “[a]s a result, traffic enforcement related collections increased” in the following two years. The 2015 budget added that even after those initial increases, in fiscal year 2012-2013, FPD was once again “successful in increasing their proportion of resources dedicated to traffic enforcement” and increasing collections.'​

'FPD has communicated to officers not only that they must focus on bringing in revenue, but that the department has little concern with how officers do this. FPD’s weak systems of supervision, review, and accountability, discussed below in Part III.A., have sent a potent message to officers that their violations of law and policy will be tolerated, provided that officers 12 continue to be “productive” in making arrests and writing citations. Where officers fail to meet productivity goals, supervisors have been instructed to alter officer assignments or impose discipline. In August 2012, the Captain of the Patrol Division instructed other patrol supervisors that, “[f]or those officers who are not keeping up an acceptable level of productivity and they have already been addressed at least once if not multiple times, take it to the next level.” He continued: “As we have discussed already, regardless of the seniority and experience take the officer out of the cover car position and assign them to prisoner pick up and bank runs. . . . Failure to perform can result in disciplinary action not just a bad evaluation.” Performance evaluations also heavily emphasize productivity. A June 2013 evaluation indicates one of the “Performance-Related Areas of Improvements” as “Increase/consistent in productivity, the ability to maintain an average ticket [sic] of 28 per month.”
Not all officers within FPD agree with this approach. Several officers commented on the futility of imposing mounting penalties on people who will never be able to afford them. One member of FPD’s command staff quoted an old adage, asking: “How can you get blood from a turnip?” Another questioned why FPD did not allow residents to use their limited resources to fix equipment violations, such as broken headlights, rather than paying that money to the City, as fixing the equipment violation would more directly benefit public safety.10'​

'The February 2011 report notes Judge Brockmeyer’s statement that “none of these changes could have taken place without the cooperation of the Court Clerk, the Chief of Police, and the Prosecutor’s Office.” Indeed, the acting prosecutor noted in the report that “I have denied defendants’ needless requests for continuance from the payment docket in an effort to aid in the court’s efficient collection of its fines.”'​

24,000 citations in one year for a population of 21,000 is nothing short of outrageous. Many of the citizens of Ferguson would have been better off under Ankh Morpork's Thieves Guild.

 

[banquetbear]

That's a stretch in my opinion ... technically you're require to give first, last, middle initial, birth date, and home address as well ... maybe it's not common knowledge? ... but every kid in my neighbourhood knows this.

...do you live on an army base? Or a police state?

According to this cite:

What if the police ask who I am?

If stopped by the police, they will likely ask for your name and address. They may also ask you for identification. In most cases, you are not required to provide this information.

http://svan.ca/police-rights/

If every kid in your neighbourhood "knows" they have to give first, last, middle initial, birth date, and home address: then they all "know wrong." But I very much doubt every kid in your neighbourhood knows this at all.

 

[Christian Klippel]

Yes,

Here is the summary, and links to the full PDF

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/just...civil-rights-investigations-ferguson-missouri

Thanks, i will read it in full in the next few days. From the excerpts you posted it seems to pretty much confirm my suspicions. Of course that report is for the Ferguson PD only, but looking at other reports regarding the treatment of black people by the police, it stands to reason that this problem is more widespread than some would like to admit.

Greetings,

Chris