DOJ: Ferguson PD descrimination against blacks is routine

TragicMonkey said:
Weirdly enough, "everybody else was doing it!" isn't an accepted legal defense in most jurisdictions.
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No, but acting legally is. Now Justice will actually have to prove their case instead of just making allegations and trying to bully them into submission.

I wonder how federal judges will react to their claims that enforcing traffic laws is racist?
 
WildCat said:
Is it? Do white people who don't show up for their court dates get a free pass? Are whites allowed to drive without a license or insurance?
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The DOJ report outlined where white people would get their tickets fixed, for example. I thought we'd been over this. You might want to review the thread.
 
Just a reminder:

Checkmite said:
According to the Justice report released today, Ferguson's police department has a long pattern of discrimination against African-American residents.

According to the investigation, by comparison to their percentage of the population, African-Americans were disproportionately more likely to be stopped by FPD officers for any reason, disproportionately more likely to be arrested during a stop regardless of the reason for the stop, disproportionately more likely to be charged with certain incidental offenses (like "manner of walking in roadway" or "failure to comply"), disproportionately more likely to have additional appended charges over a single incident, disproportionately more likely to be subject to use of force and police dogs, and the list goes on. Every single incident that the DOJ found of FPD loosing dogs on suspects, the suspect was black.

The investigation found cases of sometimes spurious charges, such as for "not wearing a seatbelt" while sitting in a parked vehicle; one man was charged with "making a false declaration" for identifying himself to a police officer as "Mike" (his legal first name was Michael).

Investigation also found a culture of racism-promotion, with police and other city officials exchanging emails joking for instance about how black women having abortions deserve to be rewarded for "helping prevent crime", numerous anti-Obama emails that specifically remarked on the president's race, and so forth.

More details on the contents of the report at the link.
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WildCat said:
Ferguson doesn't do anything 90% of American municipalities don't do. Nearly all traffic enforcement is revenue-driven, and it always hits the poor more because they're far more likely to have cars with broken taillights, cracked windshields, etc. as well as being unable to afford fines for speeding, parking, and all the rest.

Ferguson was singled out for political reasons.
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Ferguson was singled out because the population had had enough and spoke up. I'm sure there are many more cities that need their police departments reformed.

Your knee-jerk denial of racism and abusive police is a reality disconnect.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Ferguson was singled out because the population had had enough and spoke up. I'm sure there are many more cities that need their police departments reformed.

Your knee-jerk denial of racism and abusive police is a reality disconnect.
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Yes, it's an odd defence that well-documented malpractice should be ignored because the problem is probably widespread. I have seen it also defending the practices in Baltimore and Chicago.

I could understand such an argument being used to say that the US police system is fundamentally broken.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Ferguson was singled out because the population had had enough and spoke up. I'm sure there are many more cities that need their police departments reformed.

Your knee-jerk denial of racism and abusive police is a reality disconnect.
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Hey, if Wildcat wants to assert that 90% of police forces and municipal courts are as bad as Ferguson's clearly were...well, I certainly wouldn't have said that, but he's free to it.

Looking at the edits the Ferguson council made, one of them is to ensure that the decree would not be enforced if anyone were to take over the Ferguson government services. No surprise that this would be completely unacceptable. And while it will certainly be costly to implement the decree...well, they probably shouldn't have spent years running roughshod over the black people who lived there.
 
WildCat said:
Ferguson doesn't do anything 90% of American municipalities don't do. Nearly all traffic enforcement is revenue-driven, and it always hits the poor more because they're far more likely to have cars with broken taillights, cracked windshields, etc. as well as being unable to afford fines for speeding, parking, and all the rest.

Ferguson was singled out for political reasons.
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Exactly racism is the way of the world and expected and normal for police departments. It is totally inappropriate for the justice department to try to get them to obey the constitution.
 
Upchurch said:
If true, the proper response shouldn't be "leave Ferguson alone", but rather "we need to reform a lot of municipalities".
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This!

Of course Wildcat's argument isn't that 90% of municipalities are racist, he's just still of the belief it's simply over-zealous enforcement of traffic laws to raise money. If I thought that were the case (I don't, it might be a factor but much bigger is the racism) I wouldn't be too keen on changing too much. There are many traffic laws I wish were enforced more harshly.

But also of course, there is that entire racism shown in the reports and how very far they took things even if it was to raise money. Some of those cases were insane.
 
Maybe the police always end up behaving in racist ways toward blacks for actual, legitimate reasons based in black racial differences as compared to whites?

Does anyone even consider that possibility?

I expect the dog catchers to have a different posture and protocol for dealing with pit bulls than golden retrievers.
 
Skeptic Tank said:
Maybe the police always end up behaving in racist ways toward blacks for actual, legitimate reasons based in black racial differences as compared to whites?

Does anyone even consider that possibility?

I expect the dog catchers to have a different posture and protocol for dealing with pit bulls than golden retrievers.
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You only have to look at the absurd patience the feds have had with these Bundy yahoos to dispel that hypothesis. Compare that to shooting a kid with a toy within a second of pulling up on the scene and shooting the guy in the Walmart who only had a toy off the shelf.
 
Skeptic Tank said:
Maybe the police always end up behaving in racist ways toward blacks for actual, legitimate reasons based in black racial differences as compared to whites?

Does anyone even consider that possibility?
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That possibility has been considered. It's amply falsified by the fact that being black, male, or worst of all both, will get you harsher punishment even with all factors being even or even all factors being better! That is to say, a white woman who get speeds and has pot in the car is not only less likely to be stopped than a black man who does neither, if they are both stopped and do both have pot the black man will be (on average, and in almost every specific case) punished more harshly than the white woman. Yes this controls for priors. No, I'm not going to dig it up. You've been exposed to this information many times.

I expect the dog catchers to have a different posture and protocol for dealing with pit bulls than golden retrievers.
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You'd be wrong.
 
tyr_13 said:
That possibility has been considered. It's amply falsified by the fact that being black, male, or worst of all both, will get you harsher punishment even with all factors being even or even all factors being better! That is to say, a white woman who get speeds and has pot in the car is not only less likely to be stopped than a black man who does neither, if they are both stopped and do both have pot the black man will be (on average, and in almost every specific case) punished more harshly than the white woman. Yes this controls for priors. No, I'm not going to dig it up. You've been exposed to this information many times.



You'd be wrong.
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Well said
 
tyr_13 said:
That possibility has been considered. It's amply falsified by the fact that being black, male, or worst of all both, will get you harsher punishment even with all factors being even or even all factors being better! That is to say, a white woman who get speeds and has pot in the car is not only less likely to be stopped than a black man who does neither, if they are both stopped and do both have pot the black man will be (on average, and in almost every specific case) punished more harshly than the white woman. Yes this controls for priors. No, I'm not going to dig it up. You've been exposed to this information many times.
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Great, now control for behavior of the perp at every stage through the criminal justice system.

Posture toward the arresting officer, demeanor in court, respectfulness to the process and the judge, behavior while incarcerated awaiting trial... and every other possible vector where a difference could manifest.

A difference DOES manifest on average at every possible step because different types of people are different! Men are different from women in ways which help to account for the sentencing disparity there, too.
 
In Ferguson it was so blatant that this could be discounted. I have posted quotes upthread but am on a phone.
 
I would agree that the Ferguson PD was corrupt as well as racist but it was clearly racist.

One also needs significant logical contortions to explain away the wider statistics.
 
Skeptic Tank said:
Great, now control for behavior of the perp at every stage through the criminal justice system.

Posture toward the arresting officer, demeanor in court, respectfulness to the process and the judge, behavior while incarcerated awaiting trial... and every other possible vector where a difference could manifest.

A difference DOES manifest on average at every possible step because different types of people are different! Men are different from women in ways which help to account for the sentencing disparity there, too.
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Right, they sit there being all menacing by being black and having a penis, what can they expect?

I expect, rather I demand that the police and court act in a very professional manner. Any court or officer who sentences or arrests based on 'posture' doesn't deserve to be employed. It's a facile handwave.

And you don't even have evidence of this difference. It absolute doesn't account for the difference, nor should it.
 
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