God's purpose

[Magrat]

Edited by Agatha: 

Removed previously moderated content.

You are not right. You have provided zero evidence beyond "it is obvious to everyone".

Humans are not born with any innate knowledge except: grasping, suckling, breathing, etc... Basic survival. We are absolutely not born with ANY type of "morality". Period.

 

[jimbob]

Nope. I said in essence that I don't believe what you believe.

You might have meant to say that but you actually said something different:

You sound like you think 'what I did' was 'wrong'.

Is that how you feel about it RK? "Navigator did a wrong thing?"

I didn't disregard you what you had to say RK. I disagreed with it. I don't believe that people 'don't inherently know good from evil' and that evil and good 'don't exist.'

You said to me, in essence, that I don't really believe what I said, I really believe what you say, etc, etc.

What do I think about that? I can't tell you, I don't need more yellow cards.

However, it doesn't have anything to do with "evil", it has to do with stupidity and choosing to remain ignorant. Not to mention arrogance, narrow mindedness, and a complete lack of intellectual curiosity.

Eta not to mention you're intentionally conflating two separate definitions of "wrong", Ie, morally wrong and incorrect, as though anyone could have read anything I've written and think I've stated it isn't possible to be incorrect. SMH

(My highlighting)

Navigator,
You are saying that people (including, presumably RogueKitten) do inherently "know" "good" from "evil", when she's pointed out (and gave examples) that it is not like that.

ISIS consider themselves to literally be on the side of God and thus on the side of good.

People might have empathy and even evolved with a sense of fairness, but that is far from an inherent sense of good and evil.

Your inability to see this and your simplistic views mean that you *have* accused RogueKitten of not believing what she writes.

ETA: There is an obvious logical inference one needs to make to see the implications of what you said, but it is obvious.

 

[jimbob]

Navigator. You are absolutely incorrect in most, if not all, of the ideas youve expressed on this thread, including that I "sulked". Is English your first language? You don't seem to be reading the same words that I'm typing.

I'm starting to suspect that we have another demiglot. Maybe even a nonoglot.

 

[Navigator]

You might have meant to say that but you actually said something different:



(My highlighting)

Navigator,
You are saying that people (including, presumably RogueKitten) do inherently "know" "good" from "evil", when she's pointed out (and gave examples) that it is not like that.

ISIS consider themselves to literally be on the side of God and thus on the side of good.

People might have empathy and even evolved with a sense of fairness, but that is far from an inherent sense of good and evil.

Your inability to see this and your simplistic views mean that you *have* accused RogueKitten of not believing what she writes.

ETA: There is an obvious logical inference one needs to make to see the implications of what you said, but it is obvious.

Jimbob, take a look at this post and answer the question. There is an opinion that people all learn what is good and evil and there is an opinion that we know what it is when we see it.

I keep pointing to that post and people arguing against me as a gang are all ignoring that post and that question, which tells me a lot.

 

[ynot]

Why did you ask?

So I might better understand you and your claims.

Why won't you answer when you clearly indicated you would? Not ashamed of anything you believe in are you (even though you've claimed you don't believe in anything)?

I don't see what the point is in believing astrology works. It either works or it doesn't.

Okay. Do you know astrology works? In other words, does it work, or doesn't it not work?

ETA _ The answer (if there even is one) will no doubt be that the enlightened Navigator neither knows nor doesn't know if astrology works because she is a superior agnostic that doesn't subscribe to anything as childish and conflicting as conclusions and knowledge.

 

[Jodie]

if you mean humans have potential to learn the difference between right and wrong then I do agree with you. I'm not sure that "right and wrong" equate to "good and evil". You can be wrong about a lot of things and still be a descent person.

Biologically speaking we are not born knowing the difference between good and evil since that is a learned concept. Toddlers don't know right from wrong or good from evil, they only know what they want at any given moment and that's normal.

Those suffering from BPD have a genetic predisposition for that type of mental illness but it has to be fostered. Basically they are stuck at the emotional level of a 3-5 year old so that's why you get all of the impulsive and self destructive behaviors. Spend 24 hours with a toddler and you'll see that they always head straight for the one thing that will kill them.

 

[Magrat]

Just answer the question. I mean what is it about you types who go off on your wee 'lets make snide remarks about the person' rather than focus on the argument? You think that is classy?

How many times have I personally provided you information, explained the facts, etc, etc. I don't have a head made of steel, I can only bang it against the wall so long.

If you'd like to revise your stance and start considering any of the info we have all provided you, let me know. Otherwise I'm good being classy over here.

 

[Thor 2]

are you saying you don't understand the example and accompanying question in this post Thor

Yes, I see a jumbled number of statements.

 

[Navigator]

if you mean humans have potential to learn the difference between right and wrong then I do agree with you. I'm not sure that "right and wrong" equate to "good and evil". You can be wrong about a lot of things and still be a descent person.

Sure. It isn't about being right or wrong in terms of ideas or doing harmless things. It is about intentionally doing harm. We could call that 'wrong' but might as well call it evil just to differentiate and avoid any confusion.

Biologically speaking we are not born knowing the difference between good and evil since that is a learned concept.

We are born with eyes but still need to learn how to use them. I am not convinced that we don't know good from evil as an inherent attribute...but maybe only some do and others don't
We don't know the difference between belief in god and no belief in god - that is a learned thing but according to some, we are born atheists. That is - we have the inherent attribute to lack belief in gods.

Toddlers don't know right from wrong or good from evil, they only know what they want at any given moment and that's normal.

Yes it is normal - but just because a toddler doesn't comprehend good from evil, does not mean that they do not have the knowing. They don't appear to care but it does take time and I come from a hood where it was considered right to eye for an eye but I didn't think so and followed my 'heart' which is to say, within me, I knew it was evil to return evil for evil. I certainly didn't think of it as 'evil' but just something which I couldn't go along with for 'some reason' and all I can attribute that to is that I was born with the knowing.

In relation to the reactions in this thread I feel it best then to concede that it may well be a genetic program to which not everyone has - but those like myself who do, have the knowing and those who don't...well they don't. Such is the way of things.

Those suffering from BPD have a genetic predisposition for that type of mental illness but it has to be fostered. Basically they are stuck at the emotional level of a 3-5 year old so that's why you get all of the impulsive and self destructive behaviors. Spend 24 hours with a toddler and you'll see that they always head straight for the one thing that will kill them.

I understand. I also understand that as a toddler, this is not how I behaved. It is an interesting thing to contemplate...but it makes sense that our genetic coding is different in more ways than one and that is just the way it goes.

Some recognise evil and some don't. Some understand that it exists in the actions of humans and some don't.

 

[Magrat]

First I'd have to ask how you would know for a fact at no point in your toddler hood did you ever act that way.

Secondly, you do not need to *learn* how to see. Assuming no physiological dysfunction, you see automatically. At no point did you learn how to focus your eyes or send impulses down your optic nerve. You're conflating "seeing" with "comprehending what you see", two very different actions.

 

[Emily's Cat]

And if there is a God that created me as an imperfect being, it's a bit unrealistic to expect me to strive to be perfect in the first place if it's an already impossible task requiring salvation.

Maybe the measure of success is a positive first derivative on the unit of perfection?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Jodie - did you read what I said about it being possible that we are indeed born with this inherent understanding of good and evil ?

You saying it doesn't make it true though.


Here: Did you read what I said about it being possible for gravity to spontaneously quit working?

 

[Navigator]

First I'd have to ask how you would know for a fact at no point in your toddler hood did you ever act that way.

My mother informed me that this was the case.

Secondly, you do not need to *learn* how to see. Assuming no physiological dysfunction, you see automatically. At no point did you learn how to focus your eyes or send impulses down your optic nerve. You're conflating "seeing" with "comprehending what you see", two very different actions.

Right..."We are born with eyes but still need to learn how to use them."

The focus was on that which does the learning...and of course, what capabilities we each naturally have in relation to that.

 

[Navigator]

You saying it doesn't make it true though.

Well I am not saying it is true. If it were true I would not have to say it was possible.

It might be the case that for some it is so and for others it is not...a genetic thing. You either have it or you don't.

 

[Nonpareil]

Well I am not saying it is true. If it were true I would not have to say it was possible.

You have yet to even establish that it is possible.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Well I am only suggesting that we are born with the knowing...the knowledge is the external stuff.

Your suggestion is errant.

We aren't born with a knowledge of right and wrong - it's learned. We're born with the capacity to learn, paired with a trigger to develop empathy. That tends to create fairly consistent learnings - don't take things from other people without their permission, because you know how it felt when someone took your toy from you without your permission as a child.

But we do actually have to learn right from wrong.

 

[Emily's Cat]

There is an opinion that people all learn what is good and evil and there is an opinion that we know what it is when we see it.

Those opinions are not in contradiction. We learn good/bad... and then we know it when we see it. Just like we learn about pornography (we're certainly not born with an innate sense of it), and then we know it when we see it even if we can't spit out a concise and perfect definition of it.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Well I am not saying it is true. If it were true I would not have to say it was possible.

It might be the case that for some it is so and for others it is not...a genetic thing. You either have it or you don't.

Alrighty then. In the interest of semantic arguments ad nauseum...

You saying it's possible doesn't actually make it possible.

 

[Navigator]

You have yet to even establish that it is possible.

Are you saying that it isn't?

 

[Stee]

I am actually quite interested in how this discussion has gone because I had a debate (argument) with a friend who said that people do not inherently know right from wrong and I feel that we do.

I fail to see how as a species we could have advanced as we have if we only used the base instincts we are born with, surely at some stage the feelings associated with 'knowing' for what of a better word, what is in many ways a right or wrong thing, shaped behaviour early in human development?

For example, if you are a caveman and you have been collecting and chopping wood for your fire and someone just comes and steals it. Surely there is a realisation that this behavious is bad?

Hoping I put that down right...