Continuation Part 22: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Welshman]

Vixen does post stuff that has been previously discredited. The bleach in Sollecito's flat that was unused. But no evidence of bleach used in Knox's place. As Chloride (or Chris Halkides to the rest of you) has pointed out there are distinct features to the DNA exposed to bleach so we actually know that the Blood was not exposed to bleach. The cleaning agents both bleach and lysoform react with luminal and would have been detected. No evidence of used cleaning materials was found at Knox's. The mop was not contaminated with blood. The latex gloves at Sollecito's were discarded by the police. The washing machine was not on when the police arrived at Sollecito's.

Vixen thinks students don't cook at 23.30. I can tell you that midnight munchies are a real phenomenon, my omelette sandwiches were quite popular on Friday nights.

As has been said if evidence has to be literally made up to justify a belief of guilt then this is pretty good proof that the prosecution did not have the evidence for a guilty verdict. Proving guilt is easy if you can just make up evidence.

Vixen was telling us previously we should all accept there was a mountain of evidence and a strong case against Amanda and Raffaele despite the fact Vixen has to constantly resort to lying in her posts which indicates otherwise. In addition you are following a script if you point out that lying is a sign PGP have a lack of genuine evidence to base their arguments on.

 

[Welshman]

Ask politely.

The question has been asked politely. You have no excuse not to answer.

 

[Bill Williams]

Vixen does post stuff that has been previously discredited. The bleach in Sollecito's flat that was unused. But no evidence of bleach used in Knox's place. As Chloride (or Chris Halkides to the rest of you) has pointed out there are distinct features to the DNA exposed to bleach so we actually know that the Blood was not exposed to bleach. The cleaning agents both bleach and lysoform react with luminal and would have been detected. No evidence of used cleaning materials was found at Knox's. The mop was not contaminated with blood. The latex gloves at Sollecito's were discarded by the police. The washing machine was not on when the police arrived at Sollecito's.

Vixen thinks students don't cook at 23.30. I can tell you that midnight munchies are a real phenomenon, my omelette sandwiches were quite popular on Friday nights.

As has been said if evidence has to be literally made up to justify a belief of guilt then this is pretty good proof that the prosecution did not have the evidence for a guilty verdict. Proving guilt is easy if you can just make up evidence.

"Vixen does post stuff that has been previously discredited."

Perhaps the reason for this is that her sole source often seems to be Darkness Descending. Apart from the obvious flaws and untruths in it, it is fairly early in this whole debacle. No wonder Vixen doesn't seem to present much past year 2008 - and she does not comprehend even either the Massei or Nencini motivation reports, which she claims have the final word on why the two are guilty.

It's a hoot reading that she thinks Popovic might be mistaken in her timings of when she last saw Knox, as well as a hoot to completely misunderstand the point Nencini tried to make with the cellphone pinging. Vixen obviously and truly obviously has not read those two reports; Popovic and pinging for the respective reports are crucial "evidence" (factoids) which they use to justify convicting. Which is why Vixen is reduced to simply making up things about them as if she had read them.

 

[Bill Williams]

Vixen was telling us previously we should all accept there was a mountain of evidence and a strong case against Amanda and Raffaele despite the fact Vixen has to constantly resort to lying in her posts which indicates otherwise. In addition you are following a script if you point out that lying is a sign PGP have a lack of genuine evidence to base their arguments on.

Vixen now thinks that the kids consciously and with malice aforethought chose a type of bleach which evades luminol testing.

In this Vixen implicitly concedes the importance of the PLE not finding evidence of a clean-up, because evidence of swirls of the cleaning motion (invisible to the naked eye) would have been exposed by luminol.

So, instead of dealing with the obvious meaning of the evidence - there had been no clean-up - she simply invents some obscure lie to explain away this otherwise exculpatory evidence.

That's why this case eventually failed. It's why Marasca/Bruno exonerated. They did not find new evidence, they ruled as the should have on the law:

That lower judges are not allowed to have their hunches and speculations replace what the evidence says - or in this case, does not say.

If you want to put Section 9 of the Marasca/Bruno report into perspective, that is the perspective in which they write it.

The remark above is emblematic of the overall structure of the part of the challenged ruling concerning the reconstruction of the events, summarised in Section 10 and having the title: conclusive evaluations.

It is, surely, undeniable the interpretative effort displayed by the fact finding judge in order to remedy the unbridgeable investigative gaps and the significant shortfalls of evidence with shrewd speculations and suggestive logical arguments, even if merely assertive and apodictic [dogmatic].​

​

​

 

[NotEvenWrong]

Raff told police he was on his computer until 03:00 and Amanda came in 01:00. Police discovered he had lied to them as there was zero activity after 21:30, and that was an auto-ending of Amélie and an auto download of Nauruto (_sp). In addition, he claimed to have slept beyond 10:30 and after breakfast he went back to bed until nearly 12:30 next day. Yet he retrieved his phone messages and played some rock music between 05:00 and 06:30.

Yeah, this is all 100% incorrect. Raffaele's story was 100% consistent and accurate once he realized what day the police were talking about (they initially refused to give him a calendar to clarify). There is proof Raf or Amanda accessed the computer manually during the time when Meredith died. Thus we know for a fact they could not have been at the cottage when Rudy killed Meredith by himsef.

He turned off his phone between 20:55 and 05:30 and lied to police about it. How did he know this time would be significant? He told police he took a call from Papa Raff 23:00, another blatant lie. It was uncharacteristic of Raff not to spend a great part of the evening texting and using his phone.

I mean, I have no idea what Raf's texting habits were and lol neither do you obviously. I am pretty sure the official narrative is that his phone wasn't off but it was outside of the area where it got a signal so it stopped pinging the cell phone tower. And even if it was turned off who the hell cares? My phone was turned off last night. I didn't kill anyone. (I know your backwards circular logic objects to this statement but we have proven you are incapable of identifying your own fallacious arguments so that is irrelevant.)

Why lie?

I don't know Vixen. Why DO you lie in every single one of your posts?

Plus his DNA was on Mez' bra

Yup, and it was transferred there through handling of the crime scene because the investigators did not follow protocol and Raffaele had been inside the house multiple times, and right in front of the room door trying to break it down before Meredith's body was found. We all know it was on the bra clasp, but thanks for repeating that Vixen.

, his knife was the scientifically proven murder weapon,

Nope. In fact it was proven to not be the murder weapon because it was too big for the wounds.

his bare footprints appeared in luminol (standard test for recent blood) and his footprint appears on the bath mat (it is not Rudy's or Amanda's for definite).

Nope. The luminol footprints were too diffuse to confidently assign to any one person. And even if they were most of them were negative for Meredith's blood and tested negative with the confirmatory tests for blood. All of the footprints that tested positive for blood matched Rudy. Want to guess how we know Rudy did it by himself?

Of the 40K students in Perugia, I don't recall any of them being persecuted by the Italian police for slutty student behaviour.

Oh. Except for that one girl who was slandered in the media for being a slut and for having sex with more than one guy. What was her name again? Amanda something?

Time for a reality check.

Yes indeed. Did you ever come up with a SINGLE SCIENTIST on planet Earth who said the DNA samples were *collected*, *processed*, and *analyzed* correctly? Because we have a long list of scientists in support of the innocence side who have unequivocally stated the evidence was faulty.

Remember Vixen, just one!

You are in denial.

Yeah. I am in denial that you can possibly have a rational thought. But not really. I know how you operate. I'm just having fun with this.

 

[Stacyhs]

<s/fx Snort> Pipes do not detach whilst washing up. Papa Raff was obviously just helping his wayward boy with an alibi."


Loose pipes do. Ciriboga testified Raff had called a plumber and had told her the problem was fixed by "changing" something. In his book, he says the plumber had told him to buy some parts but had not fixed the pipe properly, it came loose, leaked.

"LOL would this be the same cleaner who told the police Raff expressly forbade her buying bleach because he preferred the Lysoform (antiseptic) of his prep school days and Papa Raff's surgery."

She was not forbidden to buy bleach. She was told to use Lysoform on the floors and in the bathroom. She testified she had bought bleach. A full bottle and a half bottle were found which indicates bleach was used at least once. Has it ever occurred to you that she used bleach once and it was then that Raff told her to use Lysoform instead?


"After she was given a talking to by Raff's lawyers she changed her story. LOL."

Why should she have remembered buying bleach once months before right off the top of her head when she first spoke to police? I doubt his was the only apartment she cleaned and that this was the only bleach she'd ever bought. People often remember things after thinking about it for a while. But she was really just bought off by the defense lawyers, right? Maybe they got a special deal when they bought two Ferraris? One for the maid and one for Hellmann?

"The hall floor was of a terracota colour and no doubt they overlooked Rudy's set of prints as they were barely visible to the eye."

"No doubt"? Uh huh. But they were visible to the naked eye, weren't they? The logical way to clean a large area like the hallway and bathroom floor is with the mop a few feet away. And they would have wiped down the entire floor removing all intact footprints and shoeprints. Do you also find it logical that they would clean the bathroom floor of foot/shoeprints but leave the rug with the bloody footprint in full view?

"Thus when luminol was applied, the ensuing footprints looked as though he had hopped along to the front door."

Guede's shoeprints (not footprints) were not revealed by luminol. They were visible without luminol.

 

[Stacyhs]

As Migini tactfully put it, 'Amanda is very astute'.

They knew how to clean a crime scene, and cunning enough to leave Rudy's incriminating faeces in the toilet. Yet too stupid to realise faeces are not a good source of DNA identification, as bacteria deteriorates the DNA rapidly.

You consider leaving in plain sight a bath rug with one of their bloody footprints on it, visible blood in several places in the bathroom where one of them has bled herself, and failing to wash down the entire hallway with visible bloody shoeprints knowing "how to clean a crime scene"? Really?

 

[NotEvenWrong]

It is clear Mez' was restrained.

Yeah maybe. But whatever. If she was restrained she was restrained by Rudy. For instance her arms/wrists pinned down by her lone assailant, Rudy Guede.

Pathologists set out the injuries and bruises indicating her arms were forced behind her back. At least two different knifes were used.

LOL no. Vixen still caught in the time warp and it's 2008 in her deluded mind.

A hand was put over Mez' mouth and neck, her hair was pulled back, as she was forced onto all fours. You are claiming Rudy did all this with the minimum of movement or loosening of his hold and without any skirmish.

I mean, obviously no one can know exactly what happened to that degree of certainty (unless you're a crazy PGP nutter and just fabricate stuff in your head and suddenly you "know" it). Can you just use an ounce of critical thinking skills for once?: How can someone possibly know the order of events you just described? You KNOW a hand was put over Meredith's mouth AND neck, her hair was pulled back, and she was forced onto all fours? Do you have any idea how creepy it is you come up with these murder fantasies and pretend you KNOW that's how it happened? Maybe you should write a crappy true crime novel with a tabloid journalist to make a quick buck. I am sure there are some people who would eat it up (cough cough).

A pile of postcards at the edge of Mez' desk and a glass of water, are virtually undisturbed in this extremely violent attack.

I have never ever heard this before, so I am going to guess it is just one of your lies/lunatic fantasies.

It simply isn't reasonable to believe one person could do all this and then come back later to stage a burglary and undress and pose the body. Rudy went disco dancing.

Yeah Vixen. If you fabricate a bunch of facts and information it is quite easy to "show" any number of people could have been in the room. Hey maybe there was a disco party in the room that got out of hand and led to a Samhain murder ritual. Oh wait that's what you actually believe aside from the disco party lol.

 

[Stacyhs]

As Nick Van Der Leek points out, Nencini got the pings the wrong way round. Thus, when Amanda opened Patrick's message, which he sent 20:17, it was circa 20:42 near the basketball court.

Raff himself in an early signed statement to the police claimed he returned from the Old Town alone and that Amanda was by his side when his Papa called 20:42. He also swore he did not know where Amanda was between 20:45 and 01.00, the time when she arrived home.

Bwwwaaahaahaaaa! Now we know where Vixen gets her information! Nick van der Leek? REALLY???

 

[Bill Williams]

As Nick Van Der Leek points out, Nencini got the pings the wrong way round. Thus, when Amanda opened Patrick's message, which he sent 20:17, it was circa 20:42 near the basketball court.

Raff himself in an early signed statement to the police claimed he returned from the Old Town alone and that Amanda was by his side when his Papa called 20:42. He also swore he did not know where Amanda was between 20:45 and 01.00, the time when she arrived home.

Bwwwaaahaahaaaa! Now we know where Vixen gets her information! Nick van der Leek? REALLY???

The question is: is this the one time that Nick VDL got something right?

No it isn't. There is no one, prosecution, defence, or judge, who agrees with him. No police analysis agrees with him. NVDL is simply inventing a factoid, and Vixen quotes him. Uncritically.

And....... once again, Nick VDL does not understand why Nencini is making the point he's making - like Vixen, VDL simply rearranges things for no other reason than he wants to, not because there's any evidence to suggest that Knox received Lumumba's text after being sighted by Popovic. But because..... a, er, VDL needs SOMETHING to put her in the plaza, even if he has to invent it, going against even Nencini!!!! (How weird is that!?)

Nencini makes mention of this pinging/contact before being sighted by Popovic to cast aspersions on Knox's honesty - she'd (acc. to Nencini) had therefore gone out before the Popovic sighting, and therefore Knox is a liar, and not to be believed on anything.

That's the trouble with guilters - a group in which I'd include Nencini, Vixen and Nick VDL. They simply cannot among themselves agree on the most basic of evidence. They keep rearranging their deckchairs, often each others' deckchairs.

Marasca/Bruno were clear in their report. On the evidence Nencini had in front of him, he should have acquitted. Marasca/Bruno said that a fact-finding court does not have the right, in law, to substitute their biases and "shrewd speculation" for what the evidence reasonably means.

Besides - Vixen now thinks that Nencini has made TWO typos; one on whether or not Raffaele's DNA was found on the knife - which he said he did - and whether or not Amanda's phone pinged before or after the Popovic sighting.

I'm beginning to believe that Vixen doesn't believe ANYTHING Nencini said, other than that he convicted them.

 

[NotEvenWrong]

I know what I was doing 1st November 2007as I had a very busy schedule and kept to a tight calendar. I know for a fact in 2007 I was engaged on a Thursday evening every week.

Well, before you said you were either at work or at home asleep in the evening. Now you are claiming you had an engagement. Looks like your story is changing. If we held you to the same standard as Raffaele, you would be automatically guilty.

Your logic is poor and absurd.

The great thing about this comment is that I am using the exact same kind of reasoning (modulo some minor details) that you use to infer Amanda and Raffaele are guilty. You have an alibi yet I hand-wave it away the same way you hand-wave away Amanda's alibis. Your story changes and that is fine but Raf's "story changes" (but not really) and that proves they are guilty. You lie all the time and that is fine. Amanda and Raffaele "lie" (but not really, their statements just get distorted by some crazy people) and yet they are guilty.

In other words, my satire of your logic is indeed absurd, but that is because your logic is poor and absurd. Yet you can't even recognize it as satire. I Vixen. Don't ever change.

 

[NotEvenWrong]

I truly don't think it's even worth trying to counter-argue a "true believer"-style "argument".

The intent was satire just to show how ridiculous that style of argumentation is. You can literally prove anyone did it. Have video evidence it was someone else? It was tampered with!!! They have an alibi? Their alibi was in on it!!! They got their story mixed up in the heat of the moment because they were refused a calendar and got the day mixed up. Lies!!! Burn them at the stake!

Put Vixen in the same situation with unlimited time to formulate a response and she does the same thing and gets her story all mixed up. Yet she doesn't see the irony.

In all honesty though, who has the better alibi?:

1) Hypothetical Foxy Roxy spends the evening with her boyfriend. Her boyfriend says she was with him all night. There is an electronic time stamp proving they interacted with the computer in her boyfriend's apartment when the murder occurred.

2) Hypothetical character #2. Fallacious Fox. No lie too big nor argument too dumb. "I was at work during the day and at home sleeping in the evening!". "Err wait no I had engagement every Thursday so I totally have an alibi!" "Err wait or was that Wednesday?" "Can I see that calendar?" "Don't you know my chess credentials I am in MENSA!"

 

[Vixen]

Vixen now thinks that the kids consciously and with malice aforethought chose a type of bleach which evades luminol testing.

In this Vixen implicitly concedes the importance of the PLE not finding evidence of a clean-up, because evidence of swirls of the cleaning motion (invisible to the naked eye) would have been exposed by luminol.

So, instead of dealing with the obvious meaning of the evidence - there had been no clean-up - she simply invents some obscure lie to explain away this otherwise exculpatory evidence.

That's why this case eventually failed. It's why Marasca/Bruno exonerated. They did not find new evidence, they ruled as the should have on the law:

That lower judges are not allowed to have their hunches and speculations replace what the evidence says - or in this case, does not say.

If you want to put Section 9 of the Marasca/Bruno report into perspective, that is the perspective in which they write it.

​

[/HILITE]

Of course they acted with malice and forethought. If they were accidentally involved ('It went too far, M'Lud') then a decent upright person would have rung up the police, ambulance and fire brigade to try and save Mez' life. No, instead they tried to cover it up. They covered up for your arch enemy Rudy.

Where did you get the hunch cleaning with bleach would cause swirls? Amanda never went down on her knees to scrub the floor in her life. No, it would be a mop going up and down with the minimum of elbow grease (as witness the luminol highlighted footprints left behind).

 

[Vixen]

Yeah, this is all 100% incorrect. Raffaele's story was 100% consistent and accurate once he realized what day the police were talking about (they initially refused to give him a calendar to clarify). There is proof Raf or Amanda accessed the computer manually during the time when Meredith died. Thus we know for a fact they could not have been at the cottage when Rudy killed Meredith by himsef.



I mean, I have no idea what Raf's texting habits were and lol neither do you obviously. I am pretty sure the official narrative is that his phone wasn't off but it was outside of the area where it got a signal so it stopped pinging the cell phone tower. And even if it was turned off who the hell cares? My phone was turned off last night. I didn't kill anyone. (I know your backwards circular logic objects to this statement but we have proven you are incapable of identifying your own fallacious arguments so that is irrelevant.)



I don't know Vixen. Why DO you lie in every single one of your posts?



Yup, and it was transferred there through handling of the crime scene because the investigators did not follow protocol and Raffaele had been inside the house multiple times, and right in front of the room door trying to break it down before Meredith's body was found. We all know it was on the bra clasp, but thanks for repeating that Vixen.



Nope. In fact it was proven to not be the murder weapon because it was too big for the wounds.



Nope. The luminol footprints were too diffuse to confidently assign to any one person. And even if they were most of them were negative for Meredith's blood and tested negative with the confirmatory tests for blood. All of the footprints that tested positive for blood matched Rudy. Want to guess how we know Rudy did it by himself?



Oh. Except for that one girl who was slandered in the media for being a slut and for having sex with more than one guy. What was her name again? Amanda something?



Yes indeed. Did you ever come up with a SINGLE SCIENTIST on planet Earth who said the DNA samples were *collected*, *processed*, and *analyzed* correctly? Because we have a long list of scientists in support of the innocence side who have unequivocally stated the evidence was faulty.

Remember Vixen, just one!



Yeah. I am in denial that you can possibly have a rational thought. But not really. I know how you operate. I'm just having fun with this.

Crumbs.

 

[Bill Williams]

Of course they acted with malice and forethought. If they were accidentally involved ('It went too far, M'Lud') then a decent upright person would have rung up the police, ambulance and fire brigade to try and save Mez' life. No, instead they tried to cover it up. They covered up for your arch enemy Rudy.

Where did you get the hunch cleaning with bleach would cause swirls? Amanda never went down on her knees to scrub the floor in her life. No, it would be a mop going up and down with the minimum of elbow grease (as witness the luminol highlighted footprints left behind).

It occurs to me you acually believe what you posted above, and have not done it just to troll the thread.

 

[Vixen]

<s/fx Snort> Pipes do not detach whilst washing up. Papa Raff was obviously just helping his wayward boy with an alibi."


Loose pipes do. Ciriboga testified Raff had called a plumber and had told her the problem was fixed by "changing" something. In his book, he says the plumber had told him to buy some parts but had not fixed the pipe properly, it came loose, leaked.

"LOL would this be the same cleaner who told the police Raff expressly forbade her buying bleach because he preferred the Lysoform (antiseptic) of his prep school days and Papa Raff's surgery."

She was not forbidden to buy bleach. She was told to use Lysoform on the floors and in the bathroom. She testified she had bought bleach. A full bottle and a half bottle were found which indicates bleach was used at least once. Has it ever occurred to you that she used bleach once and it was then that Raff told her to use Lysoform instead?


"After she was given a talking to by Raff's lawyers she changed her story. LOL."

Why should she have remembered buying bleach once months before right off the top of her head when she first spoke to police? I doubt his was the only apartment she cleaned and that this was the only bleach she'd ever bought. People often remember things after thinking about it for a while. But she was really just bought off by the defense lawyers, right? Maybe they got a special deal when they bought two Ferraris? One for the maid and one for Hellmann?

"The hall floor was of a terracota colour and no doubt they overlooked Rudy's set of prints as they were barely visible to the eye."

"No doubt"? Uh huh. But they were visible to the naked eye, weren't they? The logical way to clean a large area like the hallway and bathroom floor is with the mop a few feet away. And they would have wiped down the entire floor removing all intact footprints and shoeprints. Do you also find it logical that they would clean the bathroom floor of foot/shoeprints but leave the rug with the bloody footprint in full view?

"Thus when luminol was applied, the ensuing footprints looked as though he had hopped along to the front door."

Guede's shoeprints (not footprints) were not revealed by luminol. They were visible without luminol.

ROFL So Raff's cleaning lady changes her story and attests to a tall tale 'Why, M'Lud, the plumber was 'ere only last week, 'e was, leaked every bleedin' week did 'is pipe. I says to 'im, 'ere, you should get your Da' to fix your leakin' pipe cos it's a proper nuisance it is, suddenly burstin' every time yer bird fondles you while yer washin' up-'

'Thank you - next please!'

 

[Bill Williams]

Vixen - you can buy and read this study:

Attempted cleaning of bloodstains and its effect on the forensic luminol test.​

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15966054

However, when the tiles were cleaned with bleach there was an initial drop in chemiluminescence intensity, followed by a rise to a consistently high value, visibly indistinguishable from that of blood. Examination of bleach drying time suggested that any interfering effect becomes negligible after 8 h.

Luminescence. 2005 Nov-Dec;20(6):411-3.
Attempted cleaning of bloodstains and its effect on the forensic luminol test.
Creamer JI1, Quickenden TI, Crichton LB, Robertson P, Ruhayel RA.

 

[Stacyhs]

ROFL So Raff's cleaning lady changes her story and attests to a tall tale 'Why, M'Lud, the plumber was 'ere only last week, 'e was, leaked every bleedin' week did 'is pipe. I says to 'im, 'ere, you should get your Da' to fix your leakin' pipe cos it's a proper nuisance it is, suddenly burstin' every time yer bird fondles you while yer washin' up-'

'Thank you - next please!'

Is that the best rebuttal you can give?

It wasn't the cleaning lady, Ciriboga, who attested to the plumbing problems. My mistake as I wrote the wrong name. It was Raff's landlady, Sara Boccali, who testified Raff had a plumber out on his own first and then she sent her own plumber. But I suppose she was also bought off along with Ciriboga, Hellmann, Conti, Vecchiotti, et al.

That's the second time you claimed that Amanda was "fondling" Raff while he was washing up. This is the second time I've asked you for some evidence of this. I suspect this will also be the second time you fail to do so. I also suspect a psychologist would be interested in your need to bring up such an accusation in the first place when no evidence supports it ever happened.

Thank you. Next, please!

 

[Bill Williams]

ROFL So Raff's cleaning lady changes her story and attests to a tall tale 'Why, M'Lud, the plumber was 'ere only last week, 'e was, leaked every bleedin' week did 'is pipe. I says to 'im, 'ere, you should get your Da' to fix your leakin' pipe cos it's a proper nuisance it is, suddenly burstin' every time yer bird fondles you while yer washin' up-'

'Thank you - next please!'

This post is the result of a filthy mind.

 

[Welshman]

I am still waiting for Vixen to explain why she has to constantly lie in her posts if there was such a strong case against Amanda and Raffaele.