Hillary Clinton is Done: part 3

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I don't know why you jumped into this discussion in the first place.

Jumped? Nope. I've been part of these threads for some time, and part of this forum for far longer than you.

But to address the specifics of your ad hom, because it's a discussion forum. Because I had a counterpoint. Because I disagreed with your interpretation and stated as such. And, most of all, because I'm not beholden to you or anyone else for the value I place on offering my opinion.

My comments were clearly not directed at you, and you haven't really done much to move the conversation along, except bail out when I pointed out the reductio ad absurdum of dropping nuclear bombs on a country not counting as a "military adventure" if there are no "boots on the ground" (another nebulous phrase).

Well, I did point out how you were wrong. That seemed to have really upset you. Perhaps you shouldn't internet so much?
 
I apologize, I saw a reference to the star and I thought it said five-pointed. It was six. In case anyone needs it spelled out, this was why many people found it objectionable:


As for my comment about Obama keeping us out of any more military adventures, yes he has continued certain military activities. He agreed to have the U.S. take part in the NATO bombing campaign in Libya (and in Syria too) and, due to treaty obligations I think he pretty much had to. (I'm not suggesting he did it unwillingly.) He has resisted calls for boots on the ground-type actions.

You realize we still have over 4,000 troops in Iraq and Obama just authorized 500 more? http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/world/middleeast/us-iraq-mosul.html

We can argue about what "military adventure" means, but I think we both know "mission creep" when we see it.

Let's be realistic, Obama has been continually criticized by the Republicans (and Donald Trump) for NOT being willing to use U.S. military force on the scale they think is needed. You can't have it both ways.

I'm not trying to have it both ways. The GOP would probably deploy whole divisions into the M.E. That doesn't mean I should support Obama's half-assed approach to regime change. I'd rather not be bombing anyone. It's not our fight. Let Europe worry about their former colonies.

But to go back to the original point: yeah, we went on a military adventure in Libya and we're still in the thick of it having to deal with ISIS (and yes, there are boots on the ground).
 
You realize we still have over 4,000 troops in Iraq and Obama just authorized 500 more? http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/world/middleeast/us-iraq-mosul.html

We can argue about what "military adventure" means, but I think we both know "mission creep" when we see it.



I'm not trying to have it both ways. The GOP would probably deploy whole divisions into the M.E. That doesn't mean I should support Obama's half-assed approach to regime change. I'd rather not be bombing anyone. It's not our fight. Let Europe worry about their former colonies.

But to go back to the original point: yeah, we went on a military adventure in Libya and we're still in the thick of it having to deal with ISIS (and yes, there are boots on the ground).

What I hate the most about foreign policy is that we are constantly dammed if you do and dammed if you don't. I definitely believe the US should be eliminating military bases and reducing that part of our budget. I also think Europe needs to increase its share of the cost. But I am also not in favor of isolationism.
 
What I hate the most about foreign policy is that we are constantly dammed if you do and dammed if you don't. I definitely believe the US should be eliminating military bases and reducing that part of our budget. I also think Europe needs to increase its share of the cost. But I am also not in favor of isolationism.

Can't we walk a line where we're not constantly in the middle of a bunch of Mid East drama? It's like we can't help ourselves.
 
Of course I will and I will start right now.

While most national Republicans are nothing but stupid, idiotic, liars however Donald Trump has managed to set the bar far lower.

Accordingly, this election will be the easiest election for the Democrats since the days of FDR.

Latest NBC polling has Clinton ahead by 3 and 66% of the country viewing her as dishonest/untrustworthy. This won't be an easy election, not when 2/3 of the country think you're a liar and a cheat.
http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/201...rump-shrinks-after-controversial-week-n607351
 
Can't we walk a line where we're not constantly in the middle of a bunch of Mid East drama? It's like we can't help ourselves.

I dont know. Can we?. I kind of agree. But I second guess it all.

I graduated with a degree in International relations. None of this is easy or simple. You can go back and second guess almost every single foreign policy decision made in the last 100 years. Especially the ones involving the Middle East.

I think we could if it wasn't the source for so much oil. I don't think you can underestimate the Middle East's value to the world's economy. It is less so now, but it's still huge. There is also has the potential of the violence spilling over into Europe. Never mind the strong tribal and the religious issues. People in the West blame Islam the way we use to blame Communism. But like Communism, Islam is not monolithic, there are as many sects and interpretations as there are in Christianity.

If I had the answers, they'd be presenting me an award in Stockholm.
 
With quite a few Republicans refusing to endorse Trump and/or attend the upcoming Republican Convention, then that should tell you something too.

Yeah, that both candidates are lousy. One happens to be more terrible than the other. This is the worst election I can remember.
 
My recollection was that he had a bump immediately after announcing her, but as time went on people started realizing how crazy she was and it hurt him.

I remember the rumors of her "going rogue" by the time the election rolled around. There was an initial boost the ticket got with her and she energized a portion of the base but she kept opening her mouth and that didn't go over well with the general electorate. The parallels between her rise and fall from grace and Donald are almost eerie.
 
I think Obama has shown just the right amount of restraint. I don't want to see us pursue an isolationist policy either because I don't think it's realistic or that it works. I'm always reminded of what I heard President Bill Clinton say about his reluctance to get involved in Rwanda or in The Balkans back in the 1990s. Clinton said when large numbers of people are being murdered and, as the President of the United States you have the power and the resources to prevent at least some if it, it becomes very hard to say, "No." But sometimes you have to.

Kerry described Obama's thinking in an article published in The New Yorker magazine last spring. The article was written by David Remnick, the magazine's editor and someone who knows both Kerry and Obama quite well.
Obama sees the region in the throes of historical turmoil—Sunni versus Shia, civil war in Syria, threats to national boundaries drawn by France and Great Britain a century ago, threats to the stability of Lebanon, Jordan, even Saudi Arabia. Having seen one intervention after another fail, he is determined to act with restraint. Link to article
Obama is aligned with the thinking of Philip Gordon, a veteran National Security Council official and Obama’s principal adviser on the Middle East from 2013 to the spring of 2015. Gordon has written:
“In Iraq, the U.S. intervened and occupied, and the result was a costly disaster. In Libya, the U.S. intervened and did not occupy, and the result was a costly disaster. In Syria, the U.S. neither intervened nor occupied, and the result is a costly disaster.”

There are limits to what the U.S. can achieve and I don't think it's disloyal or cowardly to be aware of that. As Secretary of State Hillary Clinton was much more pro-military response than Obama was. That is one area where I do have some concerns about her presidency.
 
Yeah, that both candidates are lousy. One happens to be more terrible than the other. This is the worst election I can remember.

As long as the election is free and fair, then I consider that to be a good election.

After all, just because neither candidate is particulary attractive, that does not mean the election is bad.
 
I think Obama has shown just the right amount of restraint. I don't want to see us pursue an isolationist policy either because I don't think it's realistic or that it works. I'm always reminded of what I heard President Bill Clinton say about his reluctance to get involved in Rwanda or in The Balkans back in the 1990s. Clinton said when large numbers of people are being murdered and, as the President of the United States you have the power and the resources to prevent at least some if it, it becomes very hard to say, "No." But sometimes you have to.

Kerry described Obama's thinking in an article published in The New Yorker magazine last spring. The article was written by David Remnick, the magazine's editor and someone who knows both Kerry and Obama quite well.

Obama is aligned with the thinking of Philip Gordon, a veteran National Security Council official and Obama’s principal adviser on the Middle East from 2013 to the spring of 2015. Gordon has written:
“In Iraq, the U.S. intervened and occupied, and the result was a costly disaster. In Libya, the U.S. intervened and did not occupy, and the result was a costly disaster. In Syria, the U.S. neither intervened nor occupied, and the result is a costly disaster.”

There are limits to what the U.S. can achieve and I don't think it's disloyal or cowardly to be aware of that. As Secretary of State Hillary Clinton was much more pro-military response than Obama was. That is one area where I do have some concerns about her presidency.

I agree with all of this except the highlighted section. There is no way to know that.
 
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As long as the election is free and fair, then I consider that to be a good election.

After all, just because neither candidate is particulary attractive, that does not mean the election is bad.

I don't think it is: Bush vs. Gore, Citizens United, a two-party system that has created all sorts of roadblocks for outsiders, a primary system where super-delegates coronate a candidate before the contest even begins, an out-dated electoral college that allows candidates to skip campaigning in states like California, Texas, and New York...

We have a terrible electoral system.
 
I agree with all of this except the highlighted section. There is no way to know that.

Sure there is: Clinton voted for Iraq, Obama opposed it. Clinton wanted regime change in Libya, Obama was on the fence:

"Her conviction would be critical in persuading Mr. Obama to join allies in bombing Colonel Qaddafi’s forces. In fact, Mr. Obama’s defense secretary, Robert M. Gates, would later say that in a “51-49” decision, it was Mrs. Clinton’s support that put the ambivalent president over the line."
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/28/us/politics/hillary-clinton-libya.html
 
There is tons of information out there that as Secretary of State Hillary Clinton was usually more in favor of military action than the President. Here's a quick example involving Libya. It's a Times article from last February and a good one:

President Obama was deeply wary of another military venture in a Muslim country. Most of his senior advisers were telling him to stay out. Still, he dispatched Mrs. Clinton to sound out Mr. Jibril, a leader of the Libyan opposition...Mrs. Clinton was won over.

Her conviction would be critical in persuading Mr. Obama to join allies in bombing Colonel Qaddafi’s forces. In fact, Mr. Obama’s defense secretary, Robert M. Gates, would later say that in a “51-49” decision, it was Mrs. Clinton’s support that put the ambivalent president over the line. article link

This was not an isolated incident.
 
I agree with all of this except the highlighted section. There is no way to know that.

There is tons of information out there that as Secretary of State Hillary Clinton was usually more in favor of military action than the President. Here's a quick example involving Libya. It's a Times article from last February and a good one:

This was not an isolated incident.

This is my understanding as well. I believe this article sums it up reasonably well. Essentially:

. . . Clinton is more comfortable using American military power than Obama, and that she shares little of his skepticism of the military and foreign-policy establishments. To the contrary, she gets along very well with generals and former generals, especially gruff-talking Irish ones, such as Jack Keane, a former vice chief of staff of the U.S. Army, who was an architect of the “surge” strategy that President George W. Bush ordered in Iraq, and whom Landler describes as “perhaps the greatest single influence on the way Hillary Clinton thinks about military issues.”​
 
With quite a few Republicans refusing to endorse Trump and/or attend the upcoming Republican Convention, then that should tell you something too.

It tells me that Trump must be polling fairly strong with independents.
 
There is tons of information out there that as Secretary of State Hillary Clinton was usually more in favor of military action than the President. Here's a quick example involving Libya. It's a Times article from last February and a good one:

That was a great article and I think it shows very clearly that no one has a crystal ball. I think it is also telling when you view the results of the actions and inactions in Rwanda, Egypt and Syria. Clearly we did too much in Libya or not enough and there is no way to know if we had done nothing at all it still would have resulted in a failed State.

Or if Qaddaffi had remained in power due to America's isolation? Keep in mind that Qaddaffi was known as a long time enemy. Do you think Obama wouldn't have been excoriated by the Republicans and Europe?

I also think one's perspective is a product of our experiences and changes over time. How Clinton acted in 2002 and 2010 may or may not be a reflection of how they might act in 2016.
 
Well, hell. Hillary has to be done now, right?

Bernie Sanders ended the Democratic Party’s protracted primary battle Tuesday in New Hampshire, endorsing Hillary Clinton by reaching out to his own progressive coalition with a speech that hewed closely to the one that had fired up legions of supporters on the campaign trail.

"She will be the Democratic nominee for president and I intend to do everything I can to make certain she will be the next president of the United States," Sanders said. "I have come here to make it as clear as possible as to why I am endorsing Hillary Clinton and why she must become our next president."​
 
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