Hillary Clinton is Done: part 3

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Fudbucker said:
Sure there is: Clinton voted for Iraq, Obama opposed it. Clinton wanted regime change in Libya, Obama was on the fence:

"Her conviction would be critical in persuading Mr. Obama to join allies in bombing Colonel Qaddafi’s forces. In fact, Mr. Obama’s defense secretary, Robert M. Gates, would later say that in a “51-49” decision, it was Mrs. Clinton’s support that put the ambivalent president over the line."
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/28/us/politics/hillary-clinton-libya.html
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Note the highlighted part, in particular the word join.

Hillary supported the action again Libya based on that...

a) It was going to happen regardless of the US's decision.
b) Congress had already voted to act
c) The French President and UK PM made it clear that not doing so would potentially harm NATO
d) There was concern that the US would have to pick up the pieces if it when wrong

and

e) Agreeing to go in with their allies meant that they had some say in the planning and operations.

Given all of this, I'll ask again, what was so horrific about her supporting the US involvement?
 
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newyorkguy said:
I do have concerns about her readiness to employ the military as a problem-solver.
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At least she doesn't have on her website that should China refuse to do as told to, the solution to force them to do so is to build up US Military power in South East Asia and the South China Seas.
 
JohnnyG said:
Probably the same candidate that all the Republicans refusing to endorse Trump are endorsing - nobody.
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Not just Republicans, but anyone of any political flavor who can't bring themselves to vote for either Hillary or Trump may just sit this one out. Both sides are free to claim this benefits the other side.
 
PhantomWolf said:
You apparently didn't notice the date on the email, April 8th, 2012, four years earlier. The Classification label is not part of the original email but is rather added to the pdf or scan of the email prior to release in Jan of 2016.
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The Jan 2016 date is the date that markings were put on it. In fact, the declassify date (precisely 15 years after the date of the email) implies that the State Department considers the email to have been classified as of the date of its creation, which is April 8, 2012.

I think Comey elided over this point when he talked about "up-classification." I believe that it was an error to use such a term because it implies that the emails weren't considered classified at the time they were produced. Almost certainly, most of them were. It is extremely unlikely that some information would be considered unclassified at the time it was created or obtained, and then later, certain events would cause it to become sensitive. Once again, it's the distinction between being classified without markings and classified with markings. It's a distinction without a meaningful legal difference.

As Secretary of State, even a thought that Hillary put in the form of an email could be extremely sensitive, but if she doesn't mark it as classified herself, or ask somebody to do it, it won't be marked as classified. It is still classified, however. Context is everything, and it's hard to believe that the Secretary of State was not producing classified information at a prodigious rate, given the importance of her thoughts, opinions, and actions to the national security of the United States.
 
PhantomWolf said:
Note the highlighted part, in particular the word join.

Hillary supported the action again Libya based on that...

a) It was going to happen regardless of the US's decision.
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That strikes me as a dubious claim.

b) Congress had already voted to act
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No it hadn't. Obama never got authorization from Congress, even after the 60-day grace period prescribed by the War Powers Resolution had expired.

c) The French President and UK PM made it clear that not doing so would potentially harm NATO
d) There was concern that the US would have to pick up the pieces if it when wrong
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Well, it did go wrong, and the US refused to pick up the pieces, so that hardly seems like a good reason in retrospect.

and

e) Agreeing to go in with their allies meant that they had some say in the planning and operations.
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Yes, "leading from behind" for a "kinetic action." Only the Obama administration can take fecklessness and cowardice and turn it into a virtue. It's truly the most Orwellian administration I have ever seen.

Given all of this, I'll ask again, what was so horrific about her supporting the US involvement?
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I'm not against the US getting involved to overthrow evil dictators, but the fact is Qaddafi was actually a pretty damn good evil dictator as evil dictators go. He was well-contained and cooperative, and he had actually demonstrated a genuine desire to have better relations with the US, beginning in 2003 when he gave up his nuclear weapons program and ratted out A. Q. Khan's nuclear smuggling network.

In contrast to the leaders of Iran, the Taliban, Bashar al Assad, and Saddam Hussein, Qaddafi was probably a stabilizing force in the Middle East. Mubarak too - another part-time ally who got under-bussed by the Obama administration.
 
Clinton’s lead over Trump shrinks dramatically

Hillary Clinton’s lead over Donald Trump has withered to 3 percentage points, signaling their battle for the White House has become too close to call heading into the two major-party national conventions, according to a new McClatchy-Marist poll. Clinton, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, now leads Trump by 42 to 39 percent in a head-to-head matchup.

Her numbers plunged as the controversy over her private email server while secretary of state dominated political news. On July 5, the poll’s first day, FBI Director James Comey recommended that Clinton not be charged but termed her aides and her “extremely careless’’ in their handling of classified material. Two days later, Comey testified before a House of Representatives committee.

The email furor was a favorite reason many voters gave for rejecting Clinton. About one-fourth of Sanders voters said they were now behind Jill Stein or Gary Johnson.

Read more:
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/election/article89191922.html (July 13, 2016)
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“I proudly stood with the workers. Secretary Clinton stood with the big money interests.” – Bernie Sanders (March 14, 2016)

"You've got a bunch of fraudulent operators [Wall Street banks] that have got to be broken up. That was my view way back, and I introduced legislation to do that, while Secretary Clinton was busy giving speeches to Goldman Sachs for $225,000 a speech." -- Bernie Sanders (April 14, 2016)

“Do I have a problem, when a sitting Secretary of State and a Foundation run by her husband collects many millions of dollars from foreign governments, governments which are dictatorships… um yeah, do I have a problem with that? Yeah I do.” -- Bernie Sanders (June 5, 2016)

"Hillary Clinton will make an outstanding president, and I am proud to stand with her." -- Bernie Sanders (July 12, 2016)
 
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PhantomWolf said:
You apparently didn't notice the date on the email, April 8th, 2012, four years earlier. The Classification label is not part of the original email but is rather added to the pdf or scan of the email prior to release in Jan of 2016.
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I cited that label for a specific reason: to destroy Isiah Cummings lie that the original classification marking was not an error and to destroy the lie that the email had been declassified.

C'mon.
 
Slings and Arrows said:
“I proudly stood with the workers. Secretary Clinton stood with the big money interests.” – Bernie Sanders (March 14, 2016)

"You've got a bunch of fraudulent operators [Wall Street banks] that have got to be broken up. That was my view way back, and I introduced legislation to do that, while Secretary Clinton was busy giving speeches to Goldman Sachs for $225,000 a speech." -- Bernie Sanders (April 14, 2016)

“Do I have a problem, when a sitting Secretary of State and a Foundation run by her husband collects many millions of dollars from foreign governments, governments which are dictatorships… um yeah, do I have a problem with that? Yeah I do.” -- Bernie Sanders (June 5, 2016)

"Hillary Clinton will make an outstanding president, and I am proud to stand with her." -- Bernie Sanders (July 12, 2016)
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Please explain again why Trump would be so much better then Clintion, other then she is "The Establishement".
 
sunmaster14 said:
... Qaddafi was probably a stabilizing force in the Middle East. ....
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You might want to reread that history. There was a civil war brewing in Libya or do you imagine slaughtering a big chunk of the population is a stabilizing force?

The Libyan crisis
refers to the ongoing conflict in Libya, beginning with the Arab Spring protests of 2011, which led to the First Libyan Civil War, foreign military intervention, and the ousting and death of Muammar Gaddafi. The civil war's aftermath led to violence and instability across the country, which erupted into renewed civil war in 2014. The ongoing crisis in Libya has so far resulted in tens of thousands of casualties since the onset of violence in early 2011. During both civil wars, the output of Libya's economically crucial oil industry collapsed to a small fraction of its usual level, with most facilities blockaded or damaged by rival groups.[3]
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Once again, it was the aftermath of the overthrow that wasn't well dealt with which made things worse.
 
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dudalb said:
Please explain again why Trump would be so much better then Clintion, other then she is "The Establishement".
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Agreed. Which Bernie has made more than abundantly clear, and did again in his endorsement speech, as well as interviews after the event. He wants the most progressive agenda possible. Originally, he was that agenda. The voters did not pick him. They picked Clinton. He has now worked to make the Democratic agenda as progressive as possible, which can only be accomplished with a Clinton presidency. That certainly wouldn't happen through a Trump disaster.

ETA: That I'm not arguing with dudalb.
 
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RobRoy said:
Which Bernie has made more than abundantly clear, and did again in his endorsement speech, as well as interviews after the event. He wants the most progressive agenda possible. Originally, he was that agenda. The voters did not pick him. They picked Clinton. He has now worked to make the Democratic agenda as progressive as possible, which can only be accomplished with a Clinton presidency. That certainly wouldn't happen through a Trump disaster.
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I agree, but I was talking to Slings and Arrows,one of resident worshippers of Cheeto Jesus to give me a good reason for voting for Trump,other then he will (supposedly) stick it to the Man.
 
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dudalb said:
I was talking to Slings and Arrows,one of resident worshippers of Cheeto Jesus......
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I know. I was seconding your point with support from my opinion. I see it looks like I'm arguing with you, but that wasn't my intention. Apologies for the confusion.
 
dudalb said:
I agree, but I was talking to Slings and Arrows,one of resident worshippers of Cheeto Jesus to give me a good reason for voting for Trump,other then he will (supposedly) stick it to the Man.
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RobRoy said:
I know. I was seconding your point with support from my opinion. I see it looks like I'm arguing with you, but that wasn't my intention. Apologies for the confusion.
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Damn, now we're arguing about agreeing!
 
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/news/politics-government/election/article89191922.html


Hillary Clinton’s lead over Donald Trump has withered to 3 percentage points, signaling their battle for the White House has become too close to call heading into the two major-party national conventions, according to a new McClatchy-Marist poll.

Clinton, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, now leads Trump by 42 to 39 percent in a head-to-head matchup. While Republicans and Democrats are solidly behind their candidates, independents are divided, 36 percent for Clinton, 33 percent for Trump – and 23 percent undecided.
 
Bowing to 18 days of a popular revolt that showed no sign of slowing down, Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak resigned Friday and handed over power to the military, an ignominious end to his 30 years of U.S.-backed authoritarian rule. News link
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It was really Obama. :rolleyes:
 
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