The existence of God and the efficacy of prayer

[Donn]

.. I believe...

Think I see a flaw in your recursive mirror.

 

[sackett]

I had satori one time, at a Japanese restaurant. It was kinda cold and gooey.

 

[Donn]

I had satori one time, at a Japanese restaurant. It was kinda cold and gooey.

It was reincarpnated.

 

[kyrani99]

How many amputees have regrown limbs through prayer?

The potential for regrowing a limb is real, salamanders do it and do it repeatedly if necessary. We are limited by our thinking. While we believe that we are made up of several trillion dumb cells that are unconscious machines, and that thoughts are generated in the brain then we are in a blind alley.

The body is purpose-driven, i.e., ideas and beliefs bring about changes in the body. This is denied by medical science but at the same time it is well known in phenomena of the placebo and nocebo effects. But deceit for profit is the name of the game.

We need to emerge out of the quagmire that we are sinking in and realize the huge potential that we have, both individually and collectively.

Prayer is most often made in a very limited fashion. If we consider prayer as a mental prescription then we can begin to make progress.

The universe is upheld by the Universal Observer (God) as potentialities. We can make selections that bring into being the conditions that we want. Thus we can use prayer.

 

[abaddon]

Everyone who is humane has the potential of gaining Grace (the inhumane have chosen to forgo Grace).

Go right ahead an explain why babies have no choice at all. Your god seems to say **** it I wll simply slaughter you before you are even conscious that a choice exists. Babies in godland don't get any choices at all

There is however the question of ripening.

That would be fruit. How you can conflate fruit with people is anyone's guess.

We are spiritual being (conscious being) having physical experiences. And ripening may take millions of lifetimes of experience.

Just a few lines up from here you made the bizarre claim tht people are fruit. That certainly cast some doubt on any further wild claims you make.

Of course we must help a starving child or anyone who is humane and in need of help. We need to serve Justice. But we also need to understand that this life is only one experience of many experiences. It is not what we really are. We wear many forms through many lifetimes, through many universes.

You are a christian. Your goal is to increase suffering. Do not pretend that it is not.

So your question of why doesn't God help, from my understanding, is that we are not machines that God drives nor are we independent characters, each with only our own path. We are interrelated and we need to fight for Justice to arrive at a world where evil is eradicated and there is plenty for all.

You are really apologising for god? Your god is so lame that it requires your apology? To be frank, that god is morally inferior to you. You have a far better formed morality than your professed deity of choice. You have flat out stated that your god is morally wrong. How odd.

And I believe that with a fuller understanding every injury can be healed, even a limb regrown or an organ rejuvenated and renewed. The potential for this is real but it needs us to grow in understanding.

Name any example. You will not because you cannot. Your god is no different than Santa and has not the same level of evidence.

If the truth be told, you have no interest in what god can or cannot do. Your sole interest is in what you can instruct god to do.

Edited by Agatha: 

Edited to fix quote tags and to remove a rule 10 breach.

 

[kyrani99]

Hereby claim your Satori and smugness. It's a twofer.

Satori is for all people who are not evil. There is no smugness. Having had an enlightenment experience one becomes a pointer to others, there is no more personal life. Even though personal self re-appears, it no longer holds centre stage. My life is only in the service of the humane. To do my small part to help everyone, who is humane, to gain enlightenment asap.

 

[kyrani99]

Go right ahead an explain why babies have no choice at all. Your god seems to say **** it I wll simply slaughter you before you are even conscious that a choice exists. Babies in godland don't get any choices at all

That would be fruit. How you can conflate fruit with people is anyone's guess.

Just a few lines up from here you made the bizarre claim tht people are fruit. That certainly cast some doubt on any further wild claims you make.

I use the word "ripening" as a metaphor. People are not fruit. It is not a case of gaining anything that you don't already have. It is only a case of realizing it. That is why I used the word "ripening".

You are a christian. Your goal is to increase suffering. Do not pretend that it is not.

NO, I am not a Christian. I believe that Jesus existed and was a prophet or as the Dead Sea Scroll say "a teacher of Righteousness". I REJECT the claim that Jesus is God and I find that claim blasphemous.

I am a theist, at number one spot on Richard Dawkins scale, i.e., beyond the shadow of doubt. But I do not believe in a personal god and I believe that God or the Godhead, however one is to name God, is One. People's attempts to explain and conceive of God are many.

Christian are misguided in holding ideas such as "love thy enemy" and "do good to those that harm you" and most particularly bad is the idea that you only have to accept Jesus as God and you are guaranteed that no matter what you have done it is all wiped away. All these ideas only allow evil people to flourish and do harm. This is the meaning of "evil can only flourish when good /humane people do nothing to address the problem". In this capacity Christians do increase suffering.

You are really apologising for god? Your god is so lame that it requires your apology? To be frank, that god is morally inferior to you. You have a far better formed morality than your professed deity of choice. You have flat out stated that your god is morally wrong. How odd.

I am not making any apologies. God doesn't need me to apologize for anything.

Morality and ethics are part of the universal laws. We are all intimately interrelated in that we interact through the same universal mind and not through our own personal minds. There is a common platform, through which we all interrelate and interact. Thus what we do affects all others. Those, with whom we are most closely related, are the most affected but our actions will also affect all others. So we have a responsibility to act and think in a way that nourishes other and stands against evil. That is what makes us humane. People who act and think in ways that are harmful to other are inhumane or evil.

Where do I say that God is morally wrong?

Name any example. You will not because you cannot. Your god is no different than Santa and has not the same level of evidence.

If the truth be told, you have no interest in what god can or cannot do. Your sole interest is in what you can instruct god to do.

Every disease is an example because every disease is a nocebo effect. Thus every disease can be overcome but knowledge about how we react adversely as to create the nocebo effect is essential. This is not about blaming victims of foul play. When we recognize that it is our own reaction that has caused the disease then we are in the powerful position to regain our health without the need of doctors.

You see God as a puppeteer. This is wrong thinking.
And it is not a matter of instructing God. God created the many universes in the Mind of God. These universes are made such that we have free will and we can make choices. This is not about instructing God.

 

[Rincewind]

The potential for regrowing a limb is real, salamanders do it and do it repeatedly if necessary. We are limited by our thinking. While we believe that we are made up of several trillion dumb cells that are unconscious machines, and that thoughts are generated in the brain then we are in a blind alley.

The body is purpose-driven, i.e., ideas and beliefs bring about changes in the body. This is denied by medical science but at the same time it is well known in phenomena of the placebo and nocebo effects. But deceit for profit is the name of the game.

We need to emerge out of the quagmire that we are sinking in and realize the huge potential that we have, both individually and collectively.

Prayer is most often made in a very limited fashion. If we consider prayer as a mental prescription then we can begin to make progress.

The universe is upheld by the Universal Observer (God) as potentialities. We can make selections that bring into being the conditions that we want. Thus we can use prayer.

Hang on - you appear to be saying that limbs can be regrown using the correct prayers?

I - and I suspect many here, would love to see the evidence!

 

[The Sparrow]

The potential for regrowing a limb is real, salamanders do it and do it repeatedly if necessary. We are limited by our thinking. While we believe that we are made up of several trillion dumb cells that are unconscious machines, and that thoughts are generated in the brain then we are in a blind alley.

The body is purpose-driven, i.e., ideas and beliefs bring about changes in the body. This is denied by medical science but at the same time it is well known in phenomena of the placebo and nocebo effects. But deceit for profit is the name of the game.

We need to emerge out of the quagmire that we are sinking in and realize the huge potential that we have, both individually and collectively.

Prayer is most often made in a very limited fashion. If we consider prayer as a mental prescription then we can begin to make progress.

The universe is upheld by the Universal Observer (God) as potentialities. We can make selections that bring into being the conditions that we want. Thus we can use prayer.

Ah, that would be zero then.

 

[Pup]

The potential for regrowing a limb is real, salamanders do it and do it repeatedly if necessary. We are limited by our thinking. While we believe that we are made up of several trillion dumb cells that are unconscious machines, and that thoughts are generated in the brain then we are in a blind alley.

The body is purpose-driven, i.e., ideas and beliefs bring about changes in the body. This is denied by medical science but at the same time it is well known in phenomena of the placebo and nocebo effects. But deceit for profit is the name of the game.

We need to emerge out of the quagmire that we are sinking in and realize the huge potential that we have, both individually and collectively.

Prayer is most often made in a very limited fashion. If we consider prayer as a mental prescription then we can begin to make progress.

Are you saying that medical science claims that limbs can never be regrown? Citation please.

Are you saying that medical science now knows how to regrow limbs or could soon figure it out, but is deliberately deceiving us to keep up the profits of the artificial limb companies? Again, citation please to the evidence.

Are you saying that we could successfully pray for limbs to be regrown, but we're doing it wrong? If you know what we're doing wrong, could you do it right and just regrow a fingertip as a starter?

If you're not saying any of those and are saying something else, could you say it again more clearly?

For the record, and to be fair, I'll state that I believe medical science will one day be able to regrow limbs. Theyre working on it, but it's still far in the future. There is no major deceit for profit holding such things back, especially because a company that can regrow a limb will make far more than a company making prostheses. The progress will be made, like all progress in medical science or science in general, without any need for prayer.

 

[kyrani99]

Hang on - you appear to be saying that limbs can be regrown using the correct prayers?

I - and I suspect many here, would love to see the evidence!

YES! and I am working on bring forth that evidence.

I have seen that organs can be rejuvenated and renewed and there is no reason why this is only limited to organs. I discovered this in addressing my own medical problems with cancer. I found that cancer cells are not rogue cells but stem cells that have changed their gene expression to create some sort of barrier to protect tissue integrity. I call cancer stem-cell mediated immunity, which is erroneously ignited in the body.

The problem is that the ideas and belief that are upheld are false. It is a hoax, there is no need for any tissue protection. Once I understood that I began to use insight meditation techniques I had learned many years earlier to see what was going on at the cellular level. I found that the cancer cells reverted back to normal cells and the excesses were removed by apoptosis, i.e., a process of normal cell death, which takes place in a variety of conditions. In the growing embryo apoptosis is used to shape areas of the body as for example the fingers and toes. The excess cells are removed so that the fingers and toes take form. I was able to then get my body to selectively keep the new cells and destroy older cells so that the tissue was rejuvenated and renewed in the process of getting back to health.

I am working on showing this in scientific terms because the evidence I have at present, i.e., cancer stem cells in my body that are the records of stem-cell mediated immunity, which the body keeps as it does any immune products for future use, it is not enough evidence to show the matter conclusively. All that it shows is that I have had spontaneous remissions from a number of different cancers. This is not enough evidence.

I need to show that those remissions came about deliberately, through a realization of the truth so the ability to discard false beliefs and the application of mental prescriptions, i.e., specifically and accurately targeted prayer, which can significantly speed up the recovery processes. And I need to show this in medical terms, in clear scientific terms. At present I am up against steep opposition by many members of the medical industry, who for a variety of reason refuse to give up their sacred chalice, the medical paradigm that the body is just a machine and that all thoughts are generated in the brain.

 

[kyrani99]

Ah, that would be zero then.

If you choose zero then you will see zero result.

 

[Pup]

YES! and I am working on bring forth that evidence.

I have seen that organs can be rejuvenated and renewed and there is no reason why this is only limited to organs.

I dont think there's any doubt that organs can be rejuvenated and renewed. Lungs improve when smokers quit. The liver recuperates when heavy drinkers quit.

Are you just hopeful we'll regrow missing limbs one day, or have you actually seen missing human limbs regrow?

 

[Delvo]

So "rejuvenated" and "renewed" is now the same thing as "re-appearing after having been completely missing"... great...

 

[Pixel42]

YES! and I am working on bring forth that evidence.

I have seen that organs can be rejuvenated and renewed and there is no reason why this is only limited to organs. I discovered this in addressing my own medical problems with cancer. I found that cancer cells are not rogue cells but stem cells that have changed their gene expression to create some sort of barrier to protect tissue integrity. I call cancer stem-cell mediated immunity, which is erroneously ignited in the body.

The problem is that the ideas and belief that are upheld are false. It is a hoax, there is no need for any tissue protection. Once I understood that I began to use insight meditation techniques I had learned many years earlier to see what was going on at the cellular level. I found that the cancer cells reverted back to normal cells and the excesses were removed by apoptosis, i.e., a process of normal cell death, which takes place in a variety of conditions. In the growing embryo apoptosis is used to shape areas of the body as for example the fingers and toes. The excess cells are removed so that the fingers and toes take form. I was able to then get my body to selectively keep the new cells and destroy older cells so that the tissue was rejuvenated and renewed in the process of getting back to health.

I am working on showing this in scientific terms because the evidence I have at present, i.e., cancer stem cells in my body that are the records of stem-cell mediated immunity, which the body keeps as it does any immune products for future use, it is not enough evidence to show the matter conclusively. All that it shows is that I have had spontaneous remissions from a number of different cancers. This is not enough evidence.

I need to show that those remissions came about deliberately, through a realization of the truth so the ability to discard false beliefs and the application of mental prescriptions, i.e., specifically and accurately targeted prayer, which can significantly speed up the recovery processes. And I need to show this in medical terms, in clear scientific terms. At present I am up against steep opposition by many members of the medical industry, who for a variety of reason refuse to give up their sacred chalice, the medical paradigm that the body is just a machine and that all thoughts are generated in the brain.

You are clearly aware of the standard of evidence needed to establish that your remission was due to prayer rather than being just another case of spontaneous remission (for which there are several non-prayer-related possible explanations), and that you have not (and, as far as I can see, cannot) meet it.

My question is: in the absence of this evidence, why are you so convinced that it was indeed prayer that was responsible?

 

[kyrani99]

Are you saying that medical science claims that limbs can never be regrown? Citation please.

No. There is research being done in regenerative medicine.

Are you saying that medical science now knows how to regrow limbs or could soon figure it out, but is deliberately deceiving us to keep up the profits of the artificial limb companies? Again, citation please to the evidence.

No. There is not enough understanding of how tissues are regenerated by medical science.

Are you saying that we could successfully pray for limbs to be regrown, but we're doing it wrong? If you know what we're doing wrong, could you do it right and just regrow a fingertip as a starter?

I am saying that I see a potential for being able to regrow organs, tissues and limbs using what I call "mental prescriptions", which in common language could be called "structure, finely tuned prayer". I have healed scar tissue on my leg (from a deep infection, which had affected some muscle tissue) using this method and if I have time I will try to find the photos I have to show you. But this is a long way yet from growing a finger tip.

For the record, and to be fair, I'll state that I believe medical science will one day be able to regrow limbs. Theyre working on it, but it's still far in the future.

They are working on it but they are up against theories and scientific dogma that stands like a mountain in their road.

You can see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_differentiation#Dedifferentiation

It says: "Some believe dedifferentiation is an aberration of the normal development cycle that results in cancer,[11] whereas others believe it to be a natural part of the immune response lost by humans at some point as a result of evolution."

This is scientists interpreting what they see based on what they believe. It is not looking with an open mind.

There is no major deceit for profit holding such things back, especially because a company that can regrow a limb will make far more than a company making prostheses. The progress will be made, like all progress in medical science or science in general, without any need for prayer.

You are looking at the minimalist view. A bottle of potion verses a prostheses is the thin edge of the wedge.

The transplant industry would go bust. Have a look at the make here.
http://www.transplantliving.org/before-the-transplant/financing-a-transplant/the-costs/
And don't forget that these are patients that will need ongoing care, year after year.

Then there is cancer. The truth about regrowth would blow away the cancer industry.

The revenue generated from cancer *i.e., from the industry's point of view) is projected to reach at least $158 billion in 2020; and if the number of survives increase then this honey pot gets richer because every survivor gets locked into a system of tests every year. I suspect this is a conservative figure because this probably does not take into account all of the costs of the patient.

http://www.cancer.gov/news-events/press-releases/2011/CostCancer2020

This is progress.. monetary progress without any need of prayer. What sort of progress did you have in mind?

 

[kyrani99]

I dont think there's any doubt that organs can be rejuvenated and renewed. Lungs improve when smokers quit. The liver recuperates when heavy drinkers quit.

Are you just hopeful we'll regrow missing limbs one day, or have you actually seen missing human limbs regrow?

If the organs just regrow then why is there any need of transplant? I think you are looking at it simplistically.

I haven't seen any limbs regrow but I do believe that it is possible and people will be able to regenerate all parts of their body some time in the future.

 

[kyrani99]

So "rejuvenated" and "renewed" is now the same thing as "re-appearing after having been completely missing"... great...

The key is that this is seen in nature. Salamander and newts do it, so the potential is there.

The fact is that all cells in the body carry the same DNA. The only difference between a nerve cell and a muscle cell and a skin cell etc., is epigenetic changes. Some genes are switched on and others switched off and depending on what genes are actively expressed or not dictates the type of cell. This is exactly what happens in the growing embryo. We did it then so we have the means. How can we do it now?

What I found was a "mental body" or what I call a "blueprint matrix". The information is contained within the mind and that information can be accessed and changed in different ways. So here too there is the means. It needs to be investigated further and utilized.

 

[Pup]

They are working on it but they are up against theories and scientific dogma that stands like a mountain in their road.

And yet, after thousands of years of opportunity to show what prayer can do, scientists have done more to cure disease than prayer has. Prayer didn't cure kids with polio or eradicate smallpox.

This is scientists interpreting what they see based on what they believe. It is not looking with an open mind.

Seems your mind is equally closed against science.

The transplant industry would go bust. Have a look at the make here.
http://www.transplantliving.org/before-the-transplant/financing-a-transplant/the-costs/
And don't forget that these are patients that will need ongoing care, year after year.

Then there is cancer. The truth about regrowth would blow away the cancer industry.

So why didn't the iron lung industry stop a polio cure? All that profit caring for crippled children and adults, gone. All the TB sanitariums closed down, thanks to antibiotics. All those doctors visits for measles, mumps, whooping cough and other childhood diseases, lost to some cheap preventative shots.

You've bought a common lie spread by conspiracy theorists, and haven't considered with an open mind that money hasn't prevented medicine from curing diseases before.

This is progress.. monetary progress without any need of prayer. What sort of progress did you have in mind?

If I'd gotten the same cancer I have now, six years ago, I'd be dead already. Prayer didn't extend the life of those who used to have it beyond six months average. I just passed the two year mark, with good appetite, all my hair, and tumors smaller than when they were discovered. No prayer.

The drug I'm taking just came out of clinic trials last year, and the previous one, five years ago. More progress like that, please.

 

[Pup]

I haven't seen any limbs regrow but I do believe that it is possible and people will be able to regenerate all parts of their body some time in the future.

Then you share that belief with scientists and a lot of people including me. The difference is that I have great respect for the knowledge and skill of the scientists who have dedicated their lives to the complex problem. I don't have respect for those who promote quackery and false hope of an easy answer.

If any god was going to listen to prayers, they've had thousands of years to do so, and reduce human suffering. They're clearly not interested.