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The existence of God and the efficacy of prayer

Thanks for the reply, regardless of where you sit in the human population, the primate brain has evolved high sensitivity to patterns both real and spurious. The consequences of not spotting something are far worse than the consequences of spotting something spurious that could be corrected later - if one is still alive.

It is not pretending that all people are the same, but accepting that people are prone to misremember or misidentify. The more an observation is at variance with our body of knowledge, the more we need to check for sources of error.


I agree. But we are not animals in the wild anymore. We need to accurately and quickly identify dangers such as a motor car out of control, or people out of control. Cold analysis of complex situations that could be threatening is needed in today's world.

I was 38 before I made my first mistake in solving an equation. And about the same time I started to forget little things - what a relief. Now that I am much older I am having the misremembering and misidentifying (and lots of misspelling).

That said, I am quite human and have my short-comings, but I think it is much less than most in the department of imagining things that are not there.
 
I agree. But we are not animals in the wild anymore. We need to accurately and quickly identify dangers such as a motor car out of control, or people out of control. Cold analysis of complex situations that could be threatening is needed in today's world.

People out of control were exactly one of the dangers we evolved to survive, and I'd say that if one understands normal car behavior, the other skills needed by a pedestrian aren't much different than dodging or otherwise countering a charging or fleeing bull. Is the bull running from something and therefore will dodge me if I stand still or is he in such panic he won't see me? Should I fear what he fears? Is he charging me in particular and if so, should i attack or evade? A driver's skills are more related to hand-eye coordination, developed in hunting by throwing spears, etc. Cold analysis of complex situations, quickly performed, was always needed.

I was 38 before I made my first mistake in solving an equation.

You got 100% on every math test in school? You don't remember a single mistake in solving an equation before age 38? That's either an excellent example of good math skills or poor memory skills. I can't think of anything I've done so perfectly, no matter how I'd narrow it down to my strong points.

And about the same time I started to forget little things - what a relief. Now that I am much older I am having the misremembering and misidentifying (and lots of misspelling).

That said, I am quite human and have my short-comings, but I think it is much less than most in the department of imagining things that are not there.

Just ignore if this seems too personal, but I'm curious how old you are, because i get a sense you're younger than me or not much older. I'm 56, plus just restarted daily morphine and, up until January, had 20+ untreated tumors in my brain. And I haven't noticed any particular cognitive decline. Still have a lousy memory for where the car keys are and a good memory for where I read that historical citation last week. My wife and doctors haven't noticed any change either, and they're on the lookout.

Do you think your decline is due to natural aging, or did you have an injury or disease? Again, don't mean to pry, just ignore if it's too personal. But I'm curious why or if you feel such a steep decline is normal and at what age it occurs.
 
The only logical answer is that they removed ALL the cards.

BTW - I learned some card tricks when I was young. Was put in the same tent as a magician when in the army. I spotted his tricks and at first he was worried because I interfered. Until he realized I was a "shill" who was helping him by making the tricks more amazing.

Yes, that's correct.

Was this trick already familiar to you? Or did your experience with card tricks help?

I can no longer find the original site where I saw this trick. It included a reply page, which was absolutely packed with woo explanations.

Do you find it hard to believe that so many people fall for it?
 
Yes, that's correct.

Was this trick already familiar to you? Or did your experience with card tricks help?

I can no longer find the original site where I saw this trick. It included a reply page, which was absolutely packed with woo explanations.

Do you find it hard to believe that so many people fall for it?


I had seen a similar site before. But logic gave me the answer then as it did now. A computer CANNOT know which card to change. Once that is firmly established, it is a matter of asking myself why the cards I did NOT pick APPEAR to look the same.

It may be that my experience with card tricks helped.

I do find it hard that so many people think it works. One can say you know it does not work, but you do not know how.

I have watched the program "Brain Games". My mind is tricked by the illusions involving motion - because in that respect our brains do all work the same. But I was not fooled by a number of the other tricks involving perception and observation.
 
I'm curious. Did that reveal the trick to you?

In my case, I knew of the illusion. For the layman if they played it enough times I suspect they too would figure it out.


Here are some other ways to illustrate what I think you we're going for.

http://brainden.com/images/static1.gif (eyes)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_myMxWDv_Q (Ears, For an added effect tell someone else what you think it says and they won't be able to hear it any other way)


PartSkeptic I am going to share a story with you:

I have always been very skeptical, I never had what i thought were irrational ideas with one lone exception, I used to swear I saw a ghost one time.

The following is the event as I remember it followed by the reality:


It was 98' and a balmy summer evening, It had just stopped raining. My friend and I rode our bikes to the school, there wasn't a lot of places to hangout but we liked the handball court and would skate (badly) around the parking lot.

We ended up at the football field bleachers to chill and watch the cheerleaders practice. At this point the fog was quite dense and it was startling to drizzle. We figured it was going to rain again to we started to leave, As I turned back to pick up my skateboard I saw a guy walking and smoking but as he turned the a corner on the track all I saw was the lit end of a cigarette but nothing else, I followed the ember with my eyes as it made it's way into the soccer field and just vanished.

I was just frozen and unsure of what I saw. I never mentioned the incident to my friend and held onto it for years that ghosts might be real.

We ended up getting soaked riding home because I took so long trying to convince myself I was imagining things.


Fast forward to 2013: I reunited with my good friend (He had moved out of state) and we spent time reminiscing. I decided to drive him to our old neighborhood and the school that we'd hangout at which was a great bit of nostalgia.

I finally told him the story, He remembered that day to, He was grounded for getting his new shirt wet from the rain. I asked if he ever saw a guy walking and smoking and he replied "The guy with the glasses and that ugly flannel shirt?" yes I said surprised, He didn't recall much other than the guy continuing his walk and stoping near the other corner. [ to imagine this, think of an oval, I'm looking at the bottom right turn and my friend saw the guy att he top left who had stop to finish his smoke.

I thanked him but couldn't piece together what happened, Until I saw him smoking while we we're stopped at a light, Seeing him flick the cigarette solved the entire mystery.

What I saw was not a ghost smoking and vanishing, What I had actually seen was just someone smoking who had flicked some ash as they turned the corner, The ember kept wafting for a bit before eventually burning out. (Somewhat related this happens if you have a fireplace too which is why it isn't wise to have a real Christmas tree near one).


Spoilered for size. Our minds are incredibly faulty at times but if we take the time and effort to critically and rationally examine things, We will always find a normal explanation.
 
You got 100% on every math test in school? You don't remember a single mistake in solving an equation before age 38? That's either an excellent example of good math skills or poor memory skills. I can't think of anything I've done so perfectly, no matter how I'd narrow it down to my strong points.


Fairly close. I did say that it was a case of solving equations. There are other aspects to a maths exam that are challenging. Arithmetic for example. In my university exam on matrices, the check did not work. I had finished the exam with 45 mins to spare and came back to the question. It took me a long time to realize that I had multiplied -2 and -2 to get get +2.

Another reason I did not get 100% (but often close) was that I did not attend lectures, was disruptive in school classes, and did not do homework. I memorized the textbook theory the night before in a way I understood it. Having not done any examples, there were some "tricks" I had not learned. All I cared about was getting a passing grade. Excelling meant nothing to me.

A side note. At about 24 I tried smoking some pot. About 5 times or so. For days afterward, I had trouble solving equations because I made "silly" mistakes.

It is a two-edged sword. There are disadvantages - many would not choose to live my life.

Just ignore if this seems too personal, but I'm curious how old you are, because i get a sense you're younger than me or not much older. I'm 56, plus just restarted daily morphine and, up until January, had 20+ untreated tumors in my brain. And I haven't noticed any particular cognitive decline. Still have a lousy memory for where the car keys are and a good memory for where I read that historical citation last week. My wife and doctors haven't noticed any change either, and they're on the lookout.

Do you think your decline is due to natural aging, or did you have an injury or disease? Again, don't mean to pry, just ignore if it's too personal. But I'm curious why or if you feel such a steep decline is normal and at what age it occurs.


No problem with personal. I will be 68 in a few months.

In my late thirties my then wife complained that I was passive aggressive and manic-depressive. This was not so, although I did have the occasional anxiety attack. I was not happy in the marriage but wanted to make it work. I went to a psychiatrist and asked for medication. I did not need therapy. He agreed to experiment.

He gave me lithium. I stopped after a week because of side effects. One effect was a "popping" sensation in my brain. Sparkles, and a weird sense of "tripping". I cannot be sure but I think the way lithium works is to degrade the brain functioning.

Alternatively it may be simple aging decline. When I got tested and mentioned my concerns they said that I functioned at such a high level that unless they had previous tests of mine they could not give an opinion.

At 50 years I nevertheless excelled at an IQ test of sorts.

In November 2010 I got systemic histoplasmosis and had it for about 10 months before treatment. The fungus attacks all organs including the nervous system. It caused a lot of problems, one being central nervous sleep apnea.

The lack of oxygen at night had a very bad effect. I have now re-progammed myself not to stop breathing, but cannot reverse the degradation. Mainly short-term memory (keys, places, people) and dyslexia when typing. My analytic function and cognition still seems okay, but I struggle to focus..

The rate of decline from 38 to about 60 was steady but not too fast. It was nevertheless a concern for me. Now it has accelerated and I wonder how long before it affects my life.

One advantage is that I see life from a more normal? average? perspective. Earlier in my life I could not understand people talking about their perceptions of life when mine did not match theirs.

There are trade-offs I feel. The brain adapts and I have acquired more social skills.

I am sorry to hear about your brain issues. Certainly you do well on this site, and are well-reasoned. I wish you well.
 
Here are some other ways to illustrate what I think you we're going for.

http://brainden.com/images/static1.gif (eyes)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_myMxWDv_Q (Ears, For an added effect tell someone else what you think it says and they won't be able to hear it any other way)

All I see for the image is a set of geographical shapes.

All I hear for the audio is a set of snips of what might be a person saying something. Does not seem to be a mechanical sound, or an animal sound.

What am I supposed to see or hear?

PartSkeptic I am going to share a story with you:

I have always been very skeptical, I never had what i thought were irrational ideas with one lone exception, I used to swear I saw a ghost one time.

The following is the event as I remember it followed by the reality:(snip)

Spoilered for size. Our minds are incredibly faulty at times but if we take the time and effort to critically and rationally examine things, We will always find a normal explanation.


Why would you think you saw a ghost? You saw a person and then later you briefly saw a cigarette glow.

When I saw a ghost as a teenager it was at night. It was clearly a person reading a book. A woman in black with a scarf. I closed my eyes, opened them, rubbed them and nothing changed. But because the image was not solid, I knew there was not a person at the foot of my bed. I was never sure that I saw a ghost. I now assign that experience to a "waking dream", not a ghost, but I at least know what one might look like.

Not too long ago, I went with a person to see the spirits she could see at any time. I could not see them. But I could feel a "spirit wall". It was as distinct to me closing my eyes and putting my hands into cold water. One can clearly tell where the water starts and feel the hand going in. These are not mistakes or misinterpretation. It was not suggested to me that it was there. I felt it then asked, and the other person confirmed the extent of the "wall". And I could keep doing it with repeatability. Bright passage and room lights.
 
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All I see for the image is a set of geographical shapes.

All I hear for the audio is a set of snips of what might be a person saying something. Does not seem to be a mechanical sound, or an animal sound.

What am I supposed to see or hear?




Why would you think you saw a ghost? You saw a person and then later you briefly saw a cigarette glow. When I saw a ghost as a teenager it was at night. It was clearly a person reading a book. A woman in black with a scarf. I closed my eyes, opened them, rubbed them and nothing changed. But because the image was not solid, I knew there was not a person at the foot of my bed. I was never sure that I saw a ghost. I now assign that experience to a "waking dream", not a ghost, but I at least know what one might look like.

Not too long ago, I went with a person to see the spirits she could see at any time. I could not see them. But I could feel a "spirit wall". It was as distinct to me closing my eyes and putting my hands into cold water. One can clearly tell where the water starts and feel the hand going in. These are not mistakes or misinterpretation. It was not suggested to me that it was there. I felt it then asked, and the other person confirmed the extent of the "wall". And I could keep doing it with repeatability. Bright passage and room lights.

Because I saw him smoking then as he turns a corner my eyes followed the glow and I did not see him due to the light fog. My imagination took over.
 
I'm curious. Did that reveal the trick to you?

I assume so. I didn't do any sort of comprehensive analysis, so I might have been mistaken.

I picked out two cards. Saw they were missing, and in their place were superficially similar cards. At that point, the trick seemed to be that all cards were changed, but replaced with cards that could be mistaken for the original cards if you didn't bother paying close attention. A 4 of spades in place of a 3 of spades, for instance.
 
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In November 2010 I got systemic histoplasmosis and had it for about 10 months before treatment. The fungus attacks all organs including the nervous system. It caused a lot of problems, one being central nervous sleep apnea.

The lack of oxygen at night had a very bad effect. I have now re-progammed myself not to stop breathing, but cannot reverse the degradation. Mainly short-term memory (keys, places, people) and dyslexia when typing. My analytic function and cognition still seems okay, but I struggle to focus..

Thanks for your reply. I wouldn't know you had any cognitive problems from your posts and somehow thought you were younger.
 
You are extruding warm pap in a soothing flow of magical peristalsis. It may seem you gain knowledge thereby, but how can you gain what you abjure?

"how can you gain from what you abjure" is not it.
The "you", i.e., personal self, cannot do anything nor not do anything to get there.

Enlightenment is by Grace. :)
 
"how can you gain from what you abjure" is not it.
The "you", i.e., personal self, cannot do anything nor not do anything to get there.

Enlightenment is by Grace. :)
That's nice, except you were the one speaking of gain.

Smiley.
 
If you are talking about so-called religious "personal experience" as evidence of God's existence...........
This is spiritual experience. The sense of personal self, the "I" is still present.

Claims like that are completely useless. Anyone can make un-evidenced amazing claims all day long, about absolutely anything.
Spiritual experiences are not evidence of God.

To have any value, you have to present credible evidence of how your claimed religious "personal experience" is actually true. Do you have any genuine evidence?

There is evidence.. genuine evidence.. BUT "I" can't give it to you! :)
I'll try to explain.

You do a thought experiment.
You dream up a world with two characters in it, characters A and B, in your mind.
You tell character A that it is your creation and that you have created it in your mind.

Now let character A say to character B, I believe that there is someone in a real world that is thinking us up, that is why we exist.

Then character B says to character A. If that is the case then let them come in here to our world and prove it! Or at least give me some evidence of what you are saying. It is not possible.

The evidence is in mystical experience (enlightenment experience) but the one that is experiencing is the conscious being and not the personal self.
It is in a sense awakening in the Presence of God. There is no way that I can give you the evidence because the "I" (personal self), through which I converse with you, was not even present during that experience. The agent, through which we do science, is extinguished before the experience.
 
"how can you gain from what you abjure" is not it.
The "you", i.e., personal self, cannot do anything nor not do anything to get there.

Enlightenment is by Grace. :)

Really? Where is this grace? Are amputees excluded? How about starving children? No grace for them? Is your god that much of a dick?

Let us be honest. Were I confronted with a starving child, I would give my last morsel of food to save that child's life.

Somehow, the god you believe in has not that moral fortitude. Your god simply says kill'em. Kill'em all. Let them die miserable deaths, I don't care.

Somehow, theists think this is worthy of praise.
 
That's nice, except you were the one speaking of gain.

Smiley.

Yes, this is a limitation of language. I can't talk to you other than through the agency of personal self. Awareness of being a conscious being, which is outside of this universe but experiencing through it, is not possible to convey anything to you, unless you also have the same experience. It is much like the experience in a computer game environment through an avatar on the screen and the experience of yourself as a human being outside the computer and simply playing the game.
 
Yes, this is a limitation of language. I can't talk to you other than through the agency of personal self. Awareness of being a conscious being, which is outside of this universe but experiencing through it, is not possible to convey anything to you, unless you also have the same experience. It is much like the experience in a computer game environment through an avatar on the screen and the experience of yourself as a human being outside the computer and simply playing the game.
How many amputees have regrown limbs through prayer?
 
Really? Where is this grace? Are amputees excluded? How about starving children? No grace for them? Is your god that much of a dick?

Let us be honest. Were I confronted with a starving child, I would give my last morsel of food to save that child's life.

Somehow, the god you believe in has not that moral fortitude. Your god simply says kill'em. Kill'em all. Let them die miserable deaths, I don't care.

Somehow, theists think this is worthy of praise.

Everyone who is humane has the potential of gaining Grace (the inhumane have chosen to forgo Grace). There is however the question of ripening. We are spiritual being (conscious being) having physical experiences. And ripening may take millions of lifetimes of experience.

Of course we must help a starving child or anyone who is humane and in need of help. We need to serve Justice. But we also need to understand that this life is only one experience of many experiences. It is not what we really are. We wear many forms through many lifetimes, through many universes.

So your question of why doesn't God help, from my understanding, is that we are not machines that God drives nor are we independent characters, each with only our own path. We are interrelated and we need to fight for Justice to arrive at a world where evil is eradicated and there is plenty for all.

And I believe that with a fuller understanding every injury can be healed, even a limb regrown or an organ rejuvenated and renewed. The potential for this is real but it needs us to grow in understanding.
 
Yes, this is a limitation of language.

Replying to me in non sequitur, twice, is certainly a limitation.

Oh, forgive me; d'oh, I mean... Oh dear... Forgive this One that should not have said "me".

I can't talk to you other than through the agency of personal self. Awareness of being a conscious being, which is outside of this universe but experiencing through it, is not possible to convey anything to you, unless you also have the same experience. It is much like the experience in a computer game environment through an avatar on the screen and the experience of yourself as a human being outside the computer and simply playing the game.

I know the drill. Hereby claim your Satori and smugness. It's a twofer.
 

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