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Official - Michael Jackson was scum

There were also more accusations, and the recent articles about what he had in his house.

You're not going to change my mind, and I probably won't change yours, but I fail to see how my position is "prejudiced". I've looked at the evidence (obsession with children, multiple accusations of molestation, admission of sleeping with children, books with pictures of sexually stylized kids, doorbell alarm in bedroom) and come to a different conclusion than you. I don't understand how, knowing what we know now, you don't think MJ was probably a pedophile. I think the evidence is overwhelming.
If MJ had just been a teacher, would you have tolerated having your kid in his class?

Obviously you and I also differ. Each piece of "evidence" you cite I see as a retrospective, overheated, distorted attempt by the tabloid press to use innuendo to sell newspapers and TV news programs. Do you remember that one of Eric Clapton's early bands had a picture of a naked pubescent girl on one of its hit album covers? I never owned that album (it made me uncomfortable). I think it was expressly done to create controversy. But a number of my friends do own the album, and I gather that finding such an album in their possession could be added to such other facts, such as the time they took their 13 year old niece to a movie alone and took pictures of their 1 year old in the bath, etc. so that a tabloid could accuse them of pedophilia. You may wish to check through your own album collection to be certain that you didn't once acquire it yourself and forgotten about it- the National Examiner might drop by one day and you could be in trouble.

Do you have a DVD of Romeo and Juliet in your house- the one with the 16 year old actress playing Juliet? Same thing- find it and throw it out now! The Tin Drum, a serious movie, was once banned in parts of Europe because it has a scene of a boy hiding under the skirts of a woman in a manner I understand implied some sexual occurrence (I never saw it)- better get rid of that too. Frankly there are a lot of movies that have played it close to the edge with more or less sexualized scenes using minor actors- once suspected of being a pedophile I presume that owning a DVD or tape of any of these movies would only provide more print inches for tabloids to convict you in public opinion.

The evidence to me as to MJ is the opposite of overwhelming- it is surprisingly weak, especially given the magnitude of the accusation.

As to if I would tolerate MJ being a teacher to one of my children when they were younger? Sure, in terms of the risk of molestation if the same safeguards were in place as with any other teacher. In fact I suspect that dedicated child molesters appear externally far more mainstream than MJ, to the point where most are (initially) trusted family friends and relatives. Beyond this one aspect, I think that MJ had so many emotional problems that I do not think he would have been an effective teacher or a good role model.
 
Obviously you and I also differ. Each piece of "evidence" you cite I see as a retrospective, overheated, distorted attempt by the tabloid press to use innuendo to sell newspapers and TV news programs. Do you remember that one of Eric Clapton's early bands had a picture of a naked pubescent girl on one of its hit album covers? I never owned that album (it made me uncomfortable). I think it was expressly done to create controversy. But a number of my friends do own the album, and I gather that finding such an album in their possession could be added to such other facts, such as the time they took their 13 year old niece to a movie alone and took pictures of their 1 year old in the bath, etc. so that a tabloid could accuse them of pedophilia. You may wish to check through your own album collection to be certain that you didn't once acquire it yourself and forgotten about it- the National Examiner might drop by one day and you could be in trouble.

This is an incredibly strained and quite silly attempt to draw an analogy between Michael Jackson's profound eccentricities involving other people's children and occasional but typical interaction between family members. Claiming that people who deduce that Jackson was a pedophile from the available information could just as easily have deduced pedophilia from an Eric Clapton album cover and the fact that someone once took a young family member to a movie theater almost seems like an attempt at insulting intelligence.
 
This is an incredibly strained and quite silly attempt to draw an analogy between Michael Jackson's profound eccentricities involving other people's children and occasional but typical interaction between family members. Claiming that people who deduce that Jackson was a pedophile from the available information could just as easily have deduced pedophilia from an Eric Clapton album cover and the fact that someone once took a young family member to a movie theater almost seems like an attempt at insulting intelligence.

Perhaps then you can explain the fundamental differences between the arguments that have been presented against MJ and the examples I presented in my post? Owning a perfectly legal book with odd pictures of nude children in it within a huge library including much more adult oriented pornography? Admitting to sleeping with children, but not having sex with them? A joy in the friendship of children and in elements of childhood? And I already described how many wealthy people and institutions settle suits out of court to avoid the financial and public relations costs of a court case.

I have never argued that MJ's behavior toward children was not crossing a line that most people would be hesitate to even approach, and I posted many times that I believe that MJ's behavior toward children (and in general) was very odd, strange, and frequently creepy (even when compared to most other celebrities and very wealthy people, who often establish new standards in this regard). My entire point has never been to justify MJ's behavior as "normal" or as fitting fully within how most people behave. Instead my point has been to show how elements of even normal people's lives can be extracted out of context, distorted, and selectively cited through bad journalism and greedy people to try to justify a horrible accusation that is, ultimately, lacking true proof.

I'll simplify it further- I am not saying that MJ actions were no more odd than taking out a niece for a movie, sleeping with one's brother at age 10, or owning a copy of a photo of one's kid in a bath at age 1. Clearly MJ's behavior was fully in the weird, not normal, category. But did he actually molest children? No, according to the court case. Was he a pedophile in his head? The facts appear mainly to indicate that he had very unusual and strange ways of interacting with children, and I have no way of knowing if a sexualized interest in children was part of this. But I do I see the evidence that has come to light as not anywhere close to being convincing that such a sexual interest was involved.

Again my main point is that almost anyone's life has bits and pieces of "evidence" that can be extracted and used to smear them by innuendo if an accuser wishes to do so. Accused of killing your wife? Well, here are ten mystery novels from your book shelf in which the husband killed their wife. And didn't you take out life insurance on her 5 years ago? And didn't you just buy a new carving knife for your kitchen? And didn't you just read on the web a news article entitled "Victims body never found"?

Of course people who live socially odd lives and who are thought of as weird are inherently likely to have many more of these bits and pieces that can be used to support even an unjust accusation than do you or I- but at least some of these things exist in almost everyone's life and can be exploited for innuendo. In fact I even hope that they exist for everyone, because it would be much more disturbing to me if someone was so afraid of not being a fully cookie-cutter "accepted" member of society that they were afraid to read any questionable book, see any edgy movie, or lead their lives in any way different from Live It to Beaver. In essence I am arguing against holding people guilty of thought crimes- something that I expected, from your political posts, you would be against too.

Do you have a smoking gun fact that has convinced you that MJ was a pedophile and I missed it from my reading of this thread? Or is it that MJ appears to you to have exceeded the number of oddities that individually you might be wiling to accept as innocent in a more normal person?

MJ is dead and I never even liked his music. I am not really trying to defend him. Instead I am defending the right of people to be unconventional in their lives if they do not hurt anyone else, rather than allow societies to scapegoat these folks primarily because they seem odd to others. To make people realize that what has been stated here to be overwhelming evidence against MJ is really not, and that a similar assembly of suspicious "facts" could be generated for almost any accusation against almost anyone. MJ's life oddities made it easier to do so for him, but I have yet to see anything that was clear evidence of him being a pedophile, rather than an innuendo. And in my mind even many innuendos do not add up to enough to represent true evidence to damn someone as guilty of a horrible action.

To quote Edward R Murrow, "We must remember always that accusation is not proof and that conviction depends upon evidence and due process of law. We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason, if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine, and remember that we are not descended from fearful men – not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate, and to defend causes that were, for the moment, unpopular."
 
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I can think of many possibilities here, and variations. One of them is that MJ was not a child molester, but had an inclination toward it, and that being aware of the boundaries, he skated very close to the edge. People who know, or even think they know, when a line is crossed, will occasionally get disturbingly close to it.

Personal feelings aside, we cannot legally judge people for what they feel, wish or dream. We can only judge them for what they do. If Jackson was careful never to cross that line, then even if we consider him the sort of person we would not be comfortable with, we cannot say that because of that he might as well have gone ahead and done the things he carefully avoided doing.

In the demon-plagued world of hellfire preachers, we're all filthy sinners just for being who we are, but I think real morality can show in not doing what you wish you could.
Apparently everything except he was a kiddie fiddler
 
Perhaps then you can explain the fundamental differences between the arguments that have been presented against MJ and the examples I presented in my post? Owning a perfectly legal book with odd pictures of nude children in it within a huge library including much more adult oriented pornography? Admitting to sleeping with children, but not having sex with them? A joy in the friendship of children and in elements of childhood? And I already described how many wealthy people and institutions settle suits out of court to avoid the financial and public relations costs of a court case.

I have never argued that MJ's behavior toward children was not crossing a line that most people would be hesitate to even approach, and I posted many times that I believe that MJ's behavior toward children (and in general) was very odd, strange, and frequently creepy (even when compared to most other celebrities and very wealthy people, who often establish new standards in this regard). My entire point has never been to justify MJ's behavior as "normal" or as fitting fully within how most people behave. Instead my point has been to show how elements of even normal people's lives can be extracted out of context, distorted, and selectively cited through bad journalism and greedy people to try to justify a horrible accusation that is, ultimately, lacking true proof.

I'll simplify it further- I am not saying that MJ actions were no more odd than taking out a niece for a movie, sleeping with one's brother at age 10, or owning a copy of a photo of one's kid in a bath at age 1. Clearly MJ's behavior was fully in the weird, not normal, category. But did he actually molest children? No, according to the court case. Was he a pedophile in his head? The facts appear mainly to indicate that he had very unusual and strange ways of interacting with children, and I have no way of knowing if a sexualized interest in children was part of this. But I do I see the evidence that has come to light as not anywhere close to being convincing that such a sexual interest was involved.

Again my main point is that almost anyone's life has bits and pieces of "evidence" that can be extracted and used to smear them by innuendo if an accuser wishes to do so. Accused of killing your wife? Well, here are ten mystery novels from your book shelf in which the husband killed their wife. And didn't you take out life insurance on her 5 years ago? And didn't you just buy a new carving knife for your kitchen? And didn't you just read on the web a news article entitled "Victims body never found"?

Of course people who live socially odd lives and who are thought of as weird are inherently likely to have many more of these bits and pieces that can be used to support even an unjust accusation than do you or I- but at least some of these things exist in almost everyone's life and can be exploited for innuendo. In fact I even hope that they exist for everyone, because it would be much more disturbing to me if someone was so afraid of not being a fully cookie-cutter "accepted" member of society that they were afraid to read any questionable book, see any edgy movie, or lead their lives in any way different from Live It to Beaver. In essence I am arguing against holding people guilty of thought crimes- something that I expected, from your political posts, you would be against too.

Do you have a smoking gun fact that has convinced you that MJ was a pedophile and I missed it from my reading of this thread? Or is it that MJ appears to you to have exceeded the number of oddities that individually you might be wiling to accept as innocent in a more normal person?

MJ is dead and I never even liked his music. I am not really trying to defend him. Instead I am defending the right of people to be unconventional in their lives if they do not hurt anyone else, rather than allow societies to scapegoat these folks primarily because they seem odd to others. To make people realize that what has been stated here to be overwhelming evidence against MJ is really not, and that a similar assembly of suspicious "facts" could be generated for almost any accusation against almost anyone. MJ's life oddities made it easier to do so for him, but I have yet to see anything that was clear evidence of him being a pedophile, rather than an innuendo. And in my mind even many innuendos do not add up to enough to represent true evidence to damn someone as guilty of a horrible action.

To quote Edgar R Murrow, "We must remember always that accusation is not proof and that conviction depends upon evidence and due process of law. We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven by fear into an age of unreason, if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine, and remember that we are not descended from fearful men – not from men who feared to write, to speak, to associate, and to defend causes that were, for the moment, unpopular."
He slept with little boys and had one of the biggest porn collections in history.

His "art" was basically pre pubescent porn of little boys.

I know it's a stretch but take a stab in the dark
 
This is an incredibly strained and quite silly attempt to draw an analogy between Michael Jackson's profound eccentricities involving other people's children and occasional but typical interaction between family members. Claiming that people who deduce that Jackson was a pedophile from the available information could just as easily have deduced pedophilia from an Eric Clapton album cover and the fact that someone once took a young family member to a movie theater almost seems like an attempt at insulting intelligence.

You said it better than I could have.
 
He slept with little boys and had one of the biggest porn collections in history.

His "art" was basically pre pubescent porn of little boys.

I know it's a stretch but take a stab in the dark
Gee, isn't this already covered multiple times in this thread?

He sleep with young boys, but the real question is if he attempted to do anything sexual with them.

He had a large porn collection? Okay, but really, one of the biggest in history? In any case I understand that this was almost all adult oriented porn (as in over 99.9...%). If true, doesn't this actually make it less likely that he was a pedophile? And are all people with large pornography collections pedophiles no matter what the dominant themes of the collections?

How much of his art represented pre pubescent porn of little boys? Anything other than a handful of strange but fully legal books? You do know that actual child pornography is not sold on Amazon.com?
 
Gee, isn't this already covered multiple times in this thread?

He sleep with young boys, but the real question is if he attempted to do anything sexual with them.

He had a large porn collection? Okay, but really, one of the biggest in history? In any case I understand that this was almost all adult oriented porn (as in over 99.9...%). If true, doesn't this actually make it less likely that he was a pedophile? And are all people with large pornography collections pedophiles no matter what the dominant themes of the collections.

How much of his art represented pre pubescent porn of little boys? Anything other than a handful of strange but fully legal books? You do know that actual child pornography is not sold on Amazon.com?

What difference did it make what sort of porn?

He was showing it to kids (according to them)

People seem to be trying to find the weirdest theories as to his actions yet deny the blimmin obvious one
 
He slept with little boys and had one of the biggest porn collections in history.

His "art" was basically pre pubescent porn of little boys.
Pure and blatant fabrication on your part. Do you imagine for an instant that this isn't immediately *********** obvious?
 
Apparently everything except he was a kiddie fiddler

It is certainly possible that he was a kiddie fiddler or wanted to be one. But wouldn't having some real evidence of such be important before accusing someone of such an awful crime? Especially given the fact he was found not guilty in a criminal trial?
 
If my memory is correct, at least several of our members willing to conclude that MJ was a pedophile on the basis of weak evidence and innuendo in other threads have indicated the need for strong, convincing, and well-documented evidence in accusations of adult rape to prevent false convictions and smears based on public rumors, politically motivated social agendas, and "social warier" witch hunts.

If my memory is accurate perhaps someone here could explain the difference in this case?
 

Do you mean "of one" criminal trial? Were there any in which MJ was found guilty? How many criminal trials would it take? I have never been the defendant in a criminal trial- I must be especially guilty then.
 
What difference did it make what sort of porn?

He was showing it to kids (according to them)

People seem to be trying to find the weirdest theories as to his actions yet deny the blimmin obvious one

Really-what difference? People typically collect porn that matches what excites them sexually. People who are turned on by shoes do not maintain huge collections of glove porn.

As to MJ using this porn to groom boys- what is the actual evidence for this? I would have thought it would have been documented at his trial if it could have been proven.
 
I don't think that you are giving yourself adequate credit- you might well be able to do a lot better.

Thanks! But I don't think we'll ever agree on this. I was never a fan of MJ, so I've kind of exhausted my interest in this thread.
 
Really-what difference? People typically collect porn that matches what excites them sexually. People who are turned on by shoes do not maintain huge collections of glove porn.

As to MJ using this porn to groom boys- what is the actual evidence for this? I would have thought it would have been documented at his trial if it could have been proven.
You mean like the "art" of naked pre pubescent boys?

Apparently Mike was into normal porn as well.

How does this change the fact he slept with little boys and them saying he showed it to them?
 
If my memory is correct, at least several of our members willing to conclude that MJ was a pedophile on the basis of weak evidence and innuendo in other threads have indicated the need for strong, convincing, and well-documented evidence in accusations of adult rape to prevent false convictions and smears based on public rumors, politically motivated social agendas, and "social warier" witch hunts.

If my memory is accurate perhaps someone here could explain the difference in this case?

You are pretending to misunderstand the issue and mis-represent what has been said...or....you're are just not very smart.

I wonder which?
 
You are pretending to misunderstand the issue and mis-represent what has been said...or....you're are just not very smart.

I wonder which?

Could the latter: even not smart people often think they are smart. But not the former in that I am not pretending anything- I really don't understand the difference from what I've seen posted here. Would you be willing to explain it to me? And use simple short words so that I can understand it even if I am indeed not very smart. Would you, for example, be convinced that a frat boy had raped a woman based on the size of the frat boy's porn collection and on the nature of the other evidence presented here in support of MJ's guilt?
 
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This really is beginning to remind me of the Amanda Knox thread. People appear to have very emotional opinions as to guilt or innocence of public figures accused of crimes. At least Knox is alive. MJ isn't able to hurt anyone else at the moment.
 

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