Official - Michael Jackson was scum

[Checkmite]

What DragonLady says is actually very true. Separate beds for kids is not as common as most people want to make it out to be. Multiple members of a family sleeping in the same room, or even the same bed, is very common.

The main reason why children don't sleep with adults in the US is because adults don't want to (because of the larger American societal norms). The same societal norms which dictated, in the Victorian era) that couples should not sleep on the same bed. When an adult does not feel bound by societal pressure to follow sleeping customs, it's not really an unexpected outcome for children to want some company in bed.

Children having to share beds with other children for lack of space, is one thing. As is the same lack of space perhaps leading a child to sleep in the same bed as her parents. Very young children who may have their own beds occasionally seeking the company of their parents or other older children or family members at bed time due to anxiety or whatnot, is also "one thing".

An adult seeking out the company of an unrelated child at bed time, in a house with numerous bedrooms and plenty of space, is quite another situation entirely; and it's completely unrelated to the above-mentioned arrangements - they are not analogous or congruous circumstances at all. These were not 5-year-olds from large families who were afraid of suddenly being alone in the big dark scary house and ran to Jackson's room saying "Michael Michael can I sleep in your room tonight?" These were tweens, who occasionally even had other family staying in other rooms of the house that would easily have been available for comfort if needed, that were specifically taken by Jackson to his bedroom because he wanted them there. Jordan Chandler's mother (who never claimed to have personally seen any abuse) stated that it was Jackson who came to her asking if she could let him take her son into his bedroom, and she initially refused until Jackson started crying and guilt-tripping her for not trusting him.

As for other "cultures around the world" where "things are different" - wholly irrelevant. Jackson was not raised in Tanzania or Belgium or Malaysia or Kamchatka, and neither were his parents. Jackson grew up in Indiana, the American urban Midwest.

 

[Dr. Keith]

It's that sort of attitude that lets the Bill Cosbys of the world flourish. You judge based on appearances, and what "seems obvious". So innocent oddballs get persecuted and actual rapists and pedophiles go free. Jimmy Saville didn't "seem weird", so he got away with it. Because people like you refuse to utilize skepticism. Congrats! Your intellectual laziness makes the world a worse place.

It's a long thread and I'm not likely to catch up, but this **** is gold.

 

[Wolrab]

The funny thing is that despite my love for 80s music I have never cared for Michael Jackson's work. The only thing of his I've ever liked in the least was Alien Ant Farm's cover of Smooth Criminal, and they did that as a joke.

Whatever Bubbles.

 

[John Nowak]

I've never really gotten my brain around the whole story.

When the first round of allegations came out and the accusers settled, I was pretty much convinced Jackson was innocent. If someone slept with my (then underaged) nephew, the only settlement I'd want would be something out of the Old Testament.
If my more civilized side took over, I'd want some sort of assurance it would never happen again.

But lots and lots of money? Sorry, but no. I was pretty sure Jackson was the victim of a shakedown.

But then there was a second round of accusations, and suddenly that didn't make sense either. After that first set, there is no possible way that I would ever allow a child in the same room as me without an adult witness (and probably videotape).

So I dunno.

 

[Checkmite]

But then there was a second round of accusations, and suddenly that didn't make sense either. After that first set, there is no possible way that I would ever allow a child in the same room as me without an adult witness (and probably videotape).

Sure; but then you don't have an infatuation with young boys to contend with.

 

[Belgian thought]

Children having to share beds with other children for lack of space, is one thing...

... As for other "cultures around the world" where "things are different" - wholly irrelevant. Jackson was not raised in Tanzania or Belgium or Malaysia or Kamchatka, and neither were his parents. Jackson grew up in Indiana, the American urban Midwest.

That is why they make good chocolate - to entice...

I saw what you did there.

 

[Checkmite]

It's a long thread and I'm not likely to catch up, but this **** is gold.

It's also 100% incorrect.

Firstly, if I'm not mistaken, Jimmy Saville was sheltered by money and fame. After the revelations hit the news, the going narrative was that everyone - insofar as employees and associates went - had Saville pegged for a pedophile but nobody had any specific information. So his not "seeming weird" certainly did not shield him from suspicion.

Secondly, Bill Cosby did not "flourish" by comparison to Michael Jackson. Jackson died with a legally clear name and nothing more than a settlement some consider suspicious, while literally millions of devoted fans stand at the ready to excuse and defend his "oddball behavior". Bill Cosby - who at this point in time also has nothing more than a settlement some consider suspicious, and also has millions of devoted fans standing by to defend him - is facing a blitzkrieg of lawsuits and a criminal case with several alleged victims that he still has a decent chance of losing. Meaning there's a very real possibility that "not weird" Cosby will wind up objectively worse-off than "innocent oddball" Jackson ever did.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I've never really gotten my brain around the whole story.

When the first round of allegations came out and the accusers settled, I was pretty much convinced Jackson was innocent. If someone slept with my (then underaged) nephew, the only settlement I'd want would be something out of the Old Testament.
If my more civilized side took over, I'd want some sort of assurance it would never happen again.

But lots and lots of money? Sorry, but no. I was pretty sure Jackson was the victim of a shakedown.

But then there was a second round of accusations, and suddenly that didn't make sense either. After that first set, there is no possible way that I would ever allow a child in the same room as me without an adult witness (and probably videotape).

So I dunno.

The first was undeniably a shakedown. The father only brought the police into it after Jackson refused to pay the demanded $20 million and as soon as the settlement for $15 million was made, they stopped cooperating with the police.

The second was built on untruths, lies, damn lies, and a prosecution team that had been wanting to get Jackson by any means since the first claims. The tales that were told were simply shredded in court, and when the prosecution tried to introduce supposed other cases in, that all fell apart too with all but one saying, it never happened. The one that didn't refused to testify against Micheal and fled the country to avoid it.

The prosecution even did things like fabricate evidence (getting fingerprints on a magazine) and when interviewing a child witness, without any parents of lawyers, told him that Micheal was a molester and was harming another boy right as they were speaking, and the only way to stop it was to tell them that Micheal had molested him too.

The entire thing is build on a foundation of sane around, he was weird, he liked being around kids, and where there is smoke there is fire.

 

[Fudbucker]

Are any of the people posting here members of NAMBLA? The tortured lengths some of you are going through to defend pedophiliac behavior is quite disturbing.

 

[PhantomWolf]

It's also 100% incorrect.

Firstly, if I'm not mistaken, Jimmy Saville was sheltered by money and fame. After the revelations hit the news, the going narrative was that everyone - insofar as employees and associates went - had Saville pegged for a pedophile but nobody had any specific information. So his not "seeming weird" certainly did not shield him from suspicion.

Secondly, Bill Cosby did not "flourish" by comparison to Michael Jackson. Jackson died with a legally clear name and nothing more than a settlement some consider suspicious, while literally millions of devoted fans stand at the ready to excuse and defend his "oddball behavior". Bill Cosby - who at this point in time also has nothing more than a settlement some consider suspicious, and also has millions of devoted fans standing by to defend him - is facing a blitzkrieg of lawsuits and a criminal case with several alleged victims that he still has a decent chance of losing. Meaning there's a very real possibility that "not weird" Cosby will wind up objectively worse-off than "innocent oddball" Jackson ever did.

The difference is that when you look at the claims against Saville and Cosby, they seem to stack up. People did see things and can corroborate the stories that were give by those claiming abuse.

In the Jackson case, the stories didn't add up and totally disintegrated under examination. The prosecution even used dirty tricks to try and make their mud stick as they watched all their witnesses explode on the stand, and they still totally failed because they had nothing.

I'd like to point out there that for the last two years Cliff Richard was under investigation too, and that's been closed because they found nothing. Just because people make claims, doesn't mean that they are true, each needs to be examined on its own basis, and those against Micheal are just not credible in any way shape or form.

 

[marplots]

Are any of the people posting here members of NAMBLA? The tortured lengths some of you are going through to defend pedophiliac behavior is quite disturbing.

I'm not, but I'm willing to hear the sales pitch. Is there free coffee at the meetings?

 

[PhantomWolf]

Are any of the people posting here members of NAMBLA? The tortured lengths some of you are going through to defend pedophiliac behavior is quite disturbing.

I'd say that the way some people instantly see "pedophiliac behavior" in things that might be a bit outside of the normal is also is quite disturbing.

It has the shades of Big Ears and Noddy must be gay because Noddy used to stay over at Big Ears place, and there was only one bed.

Serious question here. Why do you believe that when an adult male sleeps in the same bed as another person it must be sexual in nature?

 

[Checkmite]

The difference is that when you look at the claims against Saville and Cosby, they seem to stack up. People did see things and can corroborate the stories that were give by those claiming abuse.

In the Jackson case, the stories didn't add up and totally disintegrated under examination. The prosecution even used dirty tricks to try and make their mud stick as they watched all their witnesses explode on the stand, and they still totally failed because they had nothing.

Here nor there to me; I believe there's more than enough reason to believe Jackson was a pedophile but I'm not arguing for the truth of the specific molestation charges against him. My particular point in that post is that the notion people spend all the time concentrating on "weird people" and completely ignore "non weird" people who turn out to be actual predators, is for the most part untrue.

The public will latch onto anyone against whom sexual abuse allegations are made. If they are "oddballs", that will certainly become part of peoples' suspicions and confidence of their guilt; but if they are perfectly normal and respectable persons in every other sense, it tends not to matter. Bill Cosby - the example "normal guy" - is in serious trouble. Jerry Sandusky, another "normal guy", will be in jail for the rest of his life. Rolf Harris - jail. Dennis Hastert, sober and highly-respected former Speaker of the US House of Representatives - now permanently disgraced admitted serial child molester, and in jail for associated charges.

Michael Jackson, "persecuted oddball", cleared of all charges and died an innocent man while working on a new hit album.

The complaint is specious.

 

[Fudbucker]

I'd say that the way some people instantly see "pedophiliac behavior" in things that might be a bit outside of the normal is also is quite disturbing.

It has the shades of Big Ears and Noddy must be gay because Noddy used to stay over at Big Ears place, and there was only one bed.

Serious question here. Why do you believe that when an adult male sleeps in the same bed as another person little boys it must be sexual in nature?

Like I said, the attempts to water-down what Jacko was doing is kind of disturbing. "A bit outside of the normal"? "Another person"?

Would YOU let your kid stay for a fun-filled weekend at Neverland Ranch? Didn't think so.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I believe there's more than enough reason to believe Jackson was a pedophile

Belief is not skepticism

 

[PhantomWolf]

Like I said, the attempts to water-down what Jacko was doing is kind of disturbing. "A bit outside of the normal"? "Another person"?

Actually the question was phrased that way for a very good reason. People seem to have this belief that if an adult male shares a bed with anyone, be it a kid, or another adult, be they male or female, then there must be a sexual component to that bed sharing. It has nothing to do with sharing a bed with a young boy, it literally is sharing a bed with anyone.

Would YOU let your kid stay for a fun-filled weekend at Neverland Ranch? Didn't think so.

From what I have seen I'd have no issues with going, and just like those families that did go, I'd go with them. You seem to be of the belief that Micheal only invited young boys to the ranch and no one else.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

Like I said, the attempts to water-down what Jacko was doing is kind of disturbing. "A bit outside of the normal"? "Another person"?

Would YOU let your kid stay for a fun-filled weekend at Neverland Ranch? Didn't think so.

I wouldn't let my kid stay with YOU for a weekend, either. Doesn't mean that I think that you are a child molester. I'm getting a little tired of this rhetorical device. It's not an argument, it's a "Gotcha!" statement with zero relevance.

 

[Checkmite]

Belief is not skepticism

Colloquial nitpickery. I am indeed no longer "skeptical" of Jackson's pedophilia because I have been convinced it was the case after all.

 

[PhantomWolf]

Colloquial nitpickery. I am indeed no longer "skeptical" of Jackson's pedophilia because I have been convinced it was the case after all.

What convinced you?

 

[Checkmite]

From what I have seen I'd have no issues with going, and just like those families that did go, I'd go with them. You seem to be of the belief that Micheal only invited young boys to the ranch and no one else.

But when he spent personal time with any of the children who visited the ranch, it was heavily weighted toward young boys. His close affectionate touchy-feely sessions were exclusively with boys of a particular age range, as were the special private slumber-parties in his bedroom.