God's purpose

RogueKitten said:
Throughout the bible, the focus is on after death. You suffer in this life, to achieve "glory" in "heaven". All that matters is that future reward.
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Suffering is only a small part of this life, a bigger part in other lives, but it isn't the only thing. Life has many wonderful things, like having children. So if you're trying to achieve glory, you don't have to, it's a free gift.

It seems to me the focus is on the here and now, which is why so much time is spent on law.

I'm surprised you don't know this being a former Christian.
 
RogueKitten said:
How could the senseless murder of a schizophrenic 2000 years ago possibly impact my life today? Explain the mechanism by which murdering his own son does anything to my "sins".
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Ahem

The Jews made animal sacrifices for their many sins. The reason is because sin is so serious it needed to be atoned with a blood sacrifice. Blood is the life of all human beings, also for animals, that is why for a time he allowed animals. Jesus is and was the final sacrifice, he is the culmination of the sacrificial system. He allowed his own son to be murdered for YOU.

This is why he is called the lamb of God.
 
Cosmic Yak said:
Not so. It's only 144,000, if you believe the Jehovah's Witnesses, or more because mutter....mumble...reasons... if you don't. Plus any man who had an unfortunate accident in the nether regions is also excluded from the club. Also anyone who did not come through Jesus (a statement more than open to differing interpretations :D ), no matter how good, is kept out. And the unbaptised babies. Those evil scum clearly cannot be permitted to approach the ever-loving god in the story.
16.5: Are you familiar with Christian belief at all?
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Lol
Jehovah's Witnesses aren't Christians.
 
The proposition that the Christian God provides great relief, joy, and happiness to those who believe in Him has a very serious problem: if this reflects the existence and actions of the specific God described in the NT, then why do Moslems end up feeling exactly the same senses of joy and reassurance when they invoke in their own way their own concept of a deity? Why do Jews? It obviously extends beyond the Abrahamic religions- Hindus have the same experiences. This might be consistent with the concept of one "true" God shared by all these religions, but the same feelings of relief, joy, happiness, reassurance, "grounding" occur in Buddhists who believe in no divinity and in atheists who meditate.

Humans appear to feel pleasure and relief when they can direct their emotions and their thinking in particular ways that allow them to accept or rationalize their problems (especially if they can feel that they have asked a greater being to intervene and solve problems that they cannot). It doesn't require the existence or acceptance of a Supreme Being. And in studies it is clear that when a specific outcome is asked, the results are no different from random chance.

Expecting the usual response here- "But you cannot know the mind of God! The death of your little Johnny from a horrible lingering disease may be His plan no matter what you prayed for. The sadness and loss will, in fact, make you a better person and Johnny is now sitting on God's knee, so all is indeed better, right?"
 
Hlafordlaes said:
I will say I find the idea of Apostolic Succession far more appealing than unerring scripture as the basis for a faith, for the simple reason that it can still advance in understanding and policy. Not that it will or must, but can. In that restricted sense, I find Catholicism less bothersome, with some potential to evolve.

Most forms of Protestantism have two fatal flaws, a final prophet, and an unerring text, both of which allow someone to believe all has been said, and all that is left is enforcement, potentially violent. Hardly any room for growth. These traits are shared with Islam, but Catholicism at least has wiggle room on the text. After all, it was a council of men/humans that decided which books went into the Bible and which did not, one key to opening up discussion again someday, and something it seems only Catholicism is mindful of.

Then again, who needs religion in the first place?
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We wouldn't have much of a God if he needed to change his mind for growth's sake.

That's kinda like having a living breathing constitution, government could define your rights however they like. It would not be Gods purpose to have me questioning where his thoughts were day to day. That is saved for the liberals. ;)
 
Giordano said:
The proposition that the Christian God provides great relief, joy, and happiness to those who believe in Him has a very serious problem: if this reflects the existence and actions of the specific God described in the NT, then why do Moslems end up feeling exactly the same senses of joy and reassurance when they invoke in their own way their own concept of a deity? Why do Jews? It obviously extends beyond the Abrahamic religions- Hindus have the same experiences. This might be consistent with the concept of one "true" God shared by all these religions, but the same feelings of relief, joy, happiness, reassurance, "grounding" occur in Buddhists who believe in no divinity and in atheists who meditate.
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That is because you don't understand these other religions, they aren't assured salvation through belief, it is of works.
Humans appear to feel pleasure and relief when they can direct their emotions and their thinking in particular ways that allow them to accept or rationalize their problems (especially if they can feel that they have asked a greater being to intervene and solve problems that they cannot). It doesn't require the existence or acceptance of a Supreme Being. And in studies it is clear that when a specific outcome is asked, the results are no different from random chance.
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Again, that is because they don't have the correct thinking on salvation. You can be happy because you think there is no God. Ignorance is bliss, it's how a lot of atheist look at life.
Expecting the usual response here- "But you cannot know the mind of God! The death of your little Johnny from a horrible lingering disease may be His plan no matter what you prayed for. The sadness and loss will, in fact, make you a better person and Johnny is now sitting on God's knee, so all is indeed better, right?"
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Yeah something like that, except there may in fact be no reason at all, maybe he just contracted a disease. Can you accept that there might not even be a reason?
 
logger said:
Ahem

The Jews made animal sacrifices for their many sins. The reason is because sin is so serious it needed to be atoned with a blood sacrifice. Blood is the life of all human beings, also for animals, that is why for a time he allowed animals. Jesus is and was the final sacrifice, he is the culmination of the sacrificial system. He allowed his own son to be murdered for YOU.

This is why he is called the lamb of God.
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He had his own son murdered for ME!?! That is horrible! That makes it worse- He thought it was for ME? What kind of sick pervert would even think of such a thing? And to save me, when He, being omnipotent, could simply have done so with a single thought! How awful to try to involve me in such a crime- I never asked for such a thing and my advice was never requested. Yuk!

"Sin must be atoned for with a blood sacrifice." Who set up that rule, if not God? And whoever set it up, then why couldn't the God who created the Universe and all the life in it, the human mind, and sees every bird that falls, undo that '"rule" in a fraction of a moment? Seems like an extraordinarily feeble attempt to explain what is truly unexplainable to anyone able to use logic, an "explanation" that would never be accepted in the real, non-religious, world. Any person maintaining such a thing as a justification for a homicide would be considered criminally insane.

Sounds like one of those well-known incremental criminals in which a sociopath ratchets up their evil actions over time- this God was, in fact, an entity that previously enjoyed having less advanced animals killed for his pleasure and enjoyed the smell of their burning flesh. I guess He needed a bigger high in the end.
 
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logger said:
You're talking about a person that experiences true joy in life in-spite of major suffering because they have a relationship with God.
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My personal life is kind of rough right now, and my body sucks. And you know what? I am a very happy person. I am optimistic about my future. I don't need a "god" to give me hope. I have my own hope. And life might suck sometimes but that doesn't mean you have to make someone up to blame. Sometimes sucky stuff just happens, and there is no reason.

Eta if I had followed the christian teachings about marriage I would only have a future of being cheated on and abused to look forward to, and no hope for anything better.
 
Rincewind said:
It seems that God's purpose encompasses the suffering that RK has to endure - to act as an object lesson to others, perhaps?
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Many endure it and don't spit in Gods face.
My mother was a good, kind, caring wife, mother and person, a believer and a regular church-goer, who had to suffer Alzheimer's for the last eight years of her life. Was this to teach her family a lesson?
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Nope, as she endured it while at the same time still loving the lord, it was an example.
I also notice that above Free Will was mentioned - are we supposed to believe that it was the operation of Free Will that gave RogueKitten and my mother all their suffering?
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Nope, the fallen nature of man is to blame.
 
Giordano said:
He had his own son murdered for ME!?! That is horrible! That makes it worse- He thought it was for ME? What kind of sick pervert would even think of such a thing? And to save me, when He, being omnipotent, could simply have done so with a single thought! How awful to try to involve me in such a crime- I never asked for such a thing and my advice was never requested. Yuk!
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Ahh the excuse that mankind has always had.
"Sin must be atoned for with a blood sacrifice." Who set up that rule, if not God? And whoever set it up, then why couldn't the God who created the Universe and all the life in it, the human mind, and sees every bird that falls, undo that '"rule" in a fraction of a moment?
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Whatever he came up with you still wouldn't accept it.
 
logger said:
Many endure it and don't spit in Gods face.


Nope, as she endured it while at the same time still loving the lord, it was an example.
Nope, the fallen nature of man is to blame.
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Aww, how sweet of God to torment and afflict Rince's mom and I in order to make an example for y'all. I might gut my cat as an example to all cat kind how lucky they are to not be her. Isn't that precious? :gasp:
 
logger said:
That is because you don't understand these other religions, they aren't assured salvation through belief, it is of works.


Again, that is because they don't have the correct thinking on salvation. You can be happy because you think there is no God. Ignorance is bliss, it's how a lot of atheist look at life.

Yeah something like that, except there may in fact be no reason at all, maybe he just contracted a disease. Can you accept that there might not even be a reason?
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Somehow I don't think you bothered to read what I wrote. Believers in these other religions (or lack thereof) feel the same positive things as do Christians, whether they view it as through works or belief alone. You appear to be claiming that these other believers are deluding themselves whereas the Christians are the only ones whose positive feelings are truly justified in... reality??

You are accurately depicting my view of the history of Christianity- find people who are "deluded" into thinking that they are happy, teach them that in fact they are going to burn for all eternity (in the Christian's not so humble opinion), and then tell them that they need to switch to your religion to save them of a sin that they didn't even know that they had committed (a sin that in fact they never actually committed, but which is viewed by Christians to be inherent to all unsaved humans). Good marketing strategy!

Can I accept that there might be no reason? I do better than that- I accept that there is never "a reason" (as in "God's purpose"). Random- as the statistics prove.
 
JayUtah said:
My, how testy! There's a limit to what I can do on my phone walking down the street.

Thank you for demonstrating Christian virtue by ignoring the question in favor of a personal attack.
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You think that is a personal attack? Then you attack me by calling into question my faith?

Sir it was simply a question of amazement. Aren't you being a bit testy?
 
logger said:
Ahh the excuse that mankind has always had.


Whatever he came up with you still wouldn't accept it.
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A) you're not psychic, stop trying to read minds

B) how about a world without suffering? We would accept that. Love it in fact. Not being punished for the "sins" of someone who existed thousands of years ago, because eating an apple somehow equates having sex and boom we are all curved in the semen. We would love that one. He's omnipotent. He doesn't do this because he is a masochistic *******.
 
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