God's purpose

[Giordano]

Oh Gosh! I was hoping that someone was going to do this. I had obviously been covering The Christian theology involving God's Purpose in some detail, and was hopeful that someone well versed in Jewish theology would join the discussion.

Glad to please you! As I said, having been Jewish before I was an atheist, I learned enough theology to be bar-mitzvahed but I was never very clear on the concept of if God sought more of people than company, good behavior, and respect. Part of the problem is the lack of a central authority in Judaism to unify the theology. Old expression: two rabbis = three opinions.

 

[jimbob]

The CofE is a broad church, and the high church wing refers to itself as a Catholic Church, but I have never seen any even of those arguing for the existence of purgatory.

It's almost entirely limited to Roman Catholics - I don't know about Orthodox Christians.

Similarly, transubstantiation is pretty limited to Roman Catholicism.

I am not familiar with any non Orthodox sect that believes in the holiness of icons.

 

[jimbob]

eta: Might as well clean up a couple of more egregious misrepresentations in the meantime. The claim that Purgatory was "invented" by Dante in a poem is laughable. Even the most ardent anti-Papists claim that the concept of Purgatory was well established by the 6th Century. Malleus malificarum was CONDEMNED by the Catholic Church within three years of its publication.

The more you know!

Established by the Sixth Century is a long way from being biblical.

 

[The Big Dog]

Established by the Sixth Century is a long way from being biblical.

That is where the "ardent anti-Papist" part comes into play... I think for the purposes of this thread it is sufficient to say that our claimant was wrong.

 

[Magrat]

There are certainly some Fundamentalist Baptists, for example, who certainly contend that, certainly.

Show me where in the bible purgatory is explicitly mentioned.

You can't, because it isn't. I am not fundamentalist, baptist, or christian. I attend co-op at an independent baptist church. However, it takes only literacy to understand this, not any type of doctrine.

 

[Magrat]

Oh Gosh! I was hoping that someone was going to do this. I had obviously been covering The Christian theology involving God's Purpose in some detail, and was hopeful that someone well versed in Jewish theology would join the discussion.

eta: Might as well clean up a couple of more egregious misrepresentations in the meantime. The claim that Purgatory was "invented" by Dante in a poem is laughable. Even the most ardent anti-Papists claim that the concept of Purgatory was well established by the 6th Century. Malleus malificarum was CONDEMNED by the Catholic Church within three years of its publication.

The more you know!

The catholic church made up purgatory for several reasons. First, to explain where unbaptized babies went in a way that wasn't horrible (not that purgatory is much better). Second, to sell indulgences and get out of purgatory free cards. Thirdly, because that's what the catholic church did and does; there is an entire non-biblical dogma to Catholicism that has no basis in Christ's teachings at all.

In the 6th century they also believed maggots spontaneous generated in meat, the sun went round the earth, and illness was caused by bad smells. So I would consider this yet another antiquated idea that they made up because they didn't know any better.

 

[The Big Dog]

There is no god, and therefore no purpose. We evolved, the world evolves, one day all the humans will be gone and something else will wonder what the "divine purpose" is for their lives.

Show me where in the bible purgatory is explicitly mentioned.

You can't, because it isn't. I am not fundamentalist, baptist, or christian. I attend co-op at an independent baptist church. However, it takes only literacy to understand this, not any type of doctrine.

You say you attend co-op at an independent baptist church? Huh.

Well, the Purgatory discussion is a bit off topic, as is the Baptist Church's historical antipathy towards the Catholic Church.

 

[Magrat]

You say you attend co-op at an independent baptist church? Huh.

Well, the Purgatory discussion is a bit off topic, as is the Baptist Church's historical antipathy towards the Catholic Church.

I could care less what the Baptist church says about anything. Some people, this may be a shock, think independently and do not swallow wholesale what any organization has to offer.

I asked you to provide proof purgatory is biblical and not invented by catholics.

Eta do you know what co-op is? As in, we homeschool, and teach classes in a building. Used to use a methodist church. Now we use a baptist one. Because they aren't being used much on weekdays and have lots of space. We have Christians, a Jew, few atheists, and even a Buddhist. It isn't run by or for the church.

 

[JayUtah]

Even the most ardent anti-Papists claim that the concept of Purgatory was well established by the 6th Century.

And therefore not actually spoken of by Jesus? That just confirms my opinion that people simply attribute to their god a purpose that they themselves invent over time. Whether by reference to literature or by deliberations in councils, these are distinctly human activities and far removed from anything that would convince me it is actually the purpose of some god.

Malleus malificarum was CONDEMNED by the Catholic Church within three years of its publication.

Which, naturally, completely eliminated its use by professing Christians as a religious justification for carrying out any sort of reign of terror. You might

Am I trying to turn this into a sectarian debate? You bet! Sectarianism among the Abrahamic religions (both within and among its major branches) is an important aspect of the atheist approach to attributing motive and purpose to god. It's prima facie evidence that likely none of them has gotten it right, and likely all (or at best, all but one) are simply pasting their own personal human squabbles onto the face of some deity in order to justify wielding power.

So please keep shoehorning this debate into your personal Catholic beliefs. The more you pretend those are the only ones that exist and have meaning to the OP, the more I can show your arguments detach from reality.

That is where the "ardent anti-Papist" part comes into play...

I'm not sure how tarring me with that brush means anything. Yes, I am anti-papist in the sense that I don't believe the pope in Rome literally speaks for god, nor any person prior to him holding that office. Just because you insist on talking only about Roman Catholic beliefs doesn't mean criticism against them is necessarily so focused. I'm also anti-prophet in the sense that I don't believe the guy downtown in my city who claims to speak for god actually does. I'm anti- toward anyone who professes to speak for a deity and by so doing command the obedience of people here on Earth to do that person's bidding.

As to ardor, if it's necessary for you to amp up the emotional language in your arguments, by all means keep doing so.

I think for the purposes of this thread it is sufficient to say that our claimant was wrong.

Wrong about the exact source of the doctrine, sure. Not wrong about it being exclusive to the Roman tradition of Christian belief and not wrong about it being a late addition. As with that and the Malleus, part of the problem seems to be so many people running around either fighting for authority or simply assuming it. Atheists rightly question how such a confusion of methods, actors, and products can somehow magically converge on the "proper"

Your solution to that problem is to hold ardently to one particular branch of the tangled tree and ignore the fact that any others exist -- only you don't go so far as to declare them in rebellion, because that would acknowledge that your "sure" pronouncements are simply one voice in a cacophony.

 

[The Big Dog]

I could care less what the Baptist church says about anything. Some people, this may be a shock, think independently and do not swallow wholesale what any organization has to offer.

I asked you to provide proof purgatory is biblical and not invented by catholics.

Eta do you know what co-op is? As in, we homeschool, and teach classes in a building. Used to use a methodist church. Now we use a baptist one. Because they aren't being used much on weekdays and have lots of space. We have Christians, a Jew, few atheists, and even a Buddhist. It isn't run by or for the church.

Sorry, my mistake. Earlier you were talking about your Pastor who held you up as an example of God's Glory, and given that you appear to be repeating the Baptist view, and mentioned a Baptist co-op, I put 1+1+1 together and came up with Baptist.

I would certainly welcome a thread split to explore DISCUSS Purgatory, however.

 

[JayUtah]

Well, the Purgatory discussion is a bit off topic...

If you think so, then you shouldn't have posted a quote that alluded to it. That's what sparked the discussion of Purgatory as a distinctively Roman doctrine.

...as is the Baptist Church's historical antipathy towards the Catholic Church.

I don't consider the antipathy at all off-topic. If we agree that the scope of the discussion is the Abrahamic god, then we must content with the historical fact that nearly all those who profess belief in the Abrahamic god nevertheless come to different conclusions regarding that god's motive and purpose -- some radically and homicidally so. The Crusades, for example, were waged between believers in the Abrahamic god, and were predicated on differences of opinion regarding god's purpose so grave as to compel the mobilization of armies!

Since you profess to want to keep the debate open both to atheists and theists, the rifts among theists seem to be a point that atheists should legitimately be able to question in response to claims that theists are able to know god's purpose.

In any case, throughout this thread you have used accusations of irrelevance to avoid addressing subjects you seem to find embarrassing or uncomfortable to your viewpoint. There is only one standard of relevance, and you may invoke it by reporting off-topic posts for moderation. If you do not wish to submit your accusation to that standard, do not continue to apply it for rhetorical effect.

 

[JayUtah]

I would certainly welcome a thread split to explore DISCUSS Purgatory, however.

Is Purgatory part of god's purpose?

 

[Magrat]

Sorry, my mistake. Earlier you were talking about your Pastor who held you up as an example of God's Glory, and given that you appear to be repeating the Baptist view, and mentioned a Baptist co-op, I put 1+1+1 together and came up with Baptist.

I would certainly welcome a thread split to explore DISCUSS Purgatory, however.

Sorry for the confusion. I used to attend an independent baptist church. I am friends with several pastors and their families. The co-op being homeschoolers has a majority of Christians, they historically have been the majority of homeschoolers everywhere. So while I am no longer christian and no longer attend any church, I have been friends with these people for a long time. I still spend a lot of my time with Christians, my daughter (although atheist) goes to a youth group and church summer camp, etc, etc.

I am not hostile to Christians. I am hostile to organized religion that keeps people en-sheep-ulated, lies about the actual teachings of their prophets, separates people from their money, and propagates pain and suffering.

 

[The Big Dog]

Is Purgatory part of god's purpose?

According to Roman Catholics, the answer appears to be Yes.

 

[JayUtah]

According to Roman Catholics, the answer appears to be Yes.

And since the Roman Catholics are indeed classified as Abrahamic (as is the rest of Christianity) then a discussion of Purgatory would seem to be on-topic.

Now that's settled, would you care to go back and answer the questions that asked you to reconcile what you said alluding to Purgatory with the things you said yesterday regarding the terms and conditions (or, variously, the lack thereof) on which god is alleged to grant some form of eternal reward?

 

[The Big Dog]

well that is one vote for on topic, and hearing no objections????

 

[Magrat]

well that is one vote for on topic, and hearing no objections????

Go for it.

 

[JayUtah]

well that is one vote for on topic, and hearing no objections????

And if this were a democracy, that would mean something. When you're finished trying to run things, please feel free to answer any of the dozen or so questions from me that you've left unanswered the past 24 hours.

 

[jimbob]

Sorry, my mistake. Earlier you were talking about your Pastor who held you up as an example of God's Glory, and given that you appear to be repeating the Baptist view, and mentioned a Baptist co-op, I put 1+1+1 together and came up with Baptist.

I would certainly welcome a thread split to explore DISCUSS Purgatory, however.

I was repeating what an ordained minister in the CofE told me. A sect that claims to be Catholic, just not Roman Catholic.

 

[The Big Dog]

Go for it.

well then let us first define what we are talking about:

"Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful"

Council of Florence