If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong. Part II

I think this is a good time to post my challenge from the very first post in the very first thread on this subject.

Instead of attacking me, or Mr. Cole, I challenge anyone in this forum to conduct an experiment proving just ONE of Mr. Cole's claims are wrong. You pick the claim, and you make your own video showing how he is wrong. Words and computer models don't count. Prove, by an experiment conducted by yourself and documented in your own video, just one of Mr. Cole's claims are wrong.


There have been over 4000 posts since this first one and I am still waiting.

:D

Nobody needs to prove Cole wrong. It's still just a shifting of the burden of proof by you. This has been pointed out to you repeatedly. You must not have any valid points if you have to keep repeating the logical fallacies.

Remember when I said I saw the same nonsense on the JFK assassination by JFK conspiracy theorists?

Perfect example above.

Hank
 
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Because I don't care whether there's a new investigation or not.

Why didn't you ask him? Same reason?

No. It's probably because they said they were only going to answer questions related to the video. I guess you didn't watch the webinar, so you don't know this.
 
I think this is a good time to post my challenge from the very first post in the very first thread on this subject.



There have been over 4000 posts since this first one and I am still waiting.

:D

Yes, the challenge of forcing you to understand why Cole's conclusions are absurd has proved to be insurmountable. As you point out, we've already wasted more than enough time chasing you around that barn, so instead I'll post my challenge for you to produce a single qualified physics or structural engineering professor who doesn't think that Cole's conclusions are absurd. It's a simple "independent investigation" you can easily do yourself: Pick some professors at random to ask for comments, and have the intellectual honesty to post all the replies you receive.

But of course this is another wasted post. You're not going to poke at your own bubble of ignorance.
 
I think you need to work on your understanding of the word "admitted".

No you need to work on your childish understanding of physics, Cole admitted that he is not trying to duplicate the motion of the towers Twice, and you admitted he isn't.

Newton's laws are energy equations ignore the energy values you are a liar and a fraud!
 
That should be one million PSI strength. That's direct pull strength, with an off center strike it rapidly decreases.
This is out by a huge factor. 1 million PSI is 6900 MPa (Mega Pascals).

A36 steel gets it's name from 36ksi which is the specification minimum for yield stress (YS). That equates to about 250MPa.

Typical A36 steel shows a YS of about 300MPa and a UTS (ultimate tensile strength) of about 450MPa.

You would look to be using a slightly higher strength electrode for the weld. Whilst welding can increase the strength of the material the strength of the weld depends on many other factors such as weld penetration, geometry, surface condition, etc.
 
No, it's an admission you didn't listen to him.
Same setup, greater separation between planks -> the block accelerates rather than decelerating. Cole admitted it.

It's just a question of what the vertical scale is.

Cole implicitly admitted that scale matters.
 
Same setup, greater separation between planks -> the block accelerates rather than decelerating. Cole admitted it.

It's just a question of what the vertical scale is.

Cole implicitly admitted that scale matters.

You will never get FF to understand that Cole's experiments are worthless and Fraudulently
Conceived, he is a true believer in the Woo.

Cole admitted last night he is a fraud!
 
No. It's probably because they said they were only going to answer questions related to the video.


Probably? You don't know your own reason for certain? Maybe you should check with yourself and get back to me on this.

I guess you didn't watch the webinar, so you don't know this.


Of course I didn't watch the webinar. I said I would leave the bandwidth available for all the interested heads of state, journalists, Nobel Prize committee members, and so forth.

Good to know that the video is unrelated to getting a new investigation of 9/11, though.
 
Same setup, greater separation between planks -> the block accelerates rather than decelerating. Cole admitted it.

It's just a question of what the vertical scale is.

Cole implicitly admitted that scale matters.

He did.

Separate question on scale... if the distance between floors in Cole's model is presumed accurate, what should be the thickness and strength of the 'floor' in Cole's model?

His flooring seems overly thick by a factor of ten or more compared to the distance between floors.

Hank
 
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He did.

Separate question on scale... if the distance between floors in Cole's model is presumed accurate, what should be the thickness and strength of the 'floor' in Cole's model?

His flooring seems overly thick by a factor of ten or more.

Hank

Don't forget his gravitational mass is weaker also by multiple magnitudes.
 
Just For You FF, I asked the Florida, Society For professional engineers for a statement on Mr Cole's web broadcast last night, will let you know if they make a statement on it.
Remember Cole is a member of that group!
 
He did.

Separate question on scale... if the distance between floors in Cole's model is presumed accurate, what should be the thickness and strength of the 'floor' in Cole's model?

His flooring seems overly thick by a factor of ten or more.

Hank

That's a scale issue. You're not allowed to mention that because all the directions are the same. Or something :confused:
 
No. It's probably because they said they were only going to answer questions related to the video.


Since Cole's video and webinar are a dead end as far as figuring out how an independent investigation with subpoena, immunity, and punitive powers could possibly happen, what's your plan for getting this all-important question answered so the variety of new investigation you want can happen? What expert(s) on that topic are you going to consult?

(It's really a shame the U.S. is completely lacking in trained experts on U.S. law, available to be consulted on matters of law, by the hour, by anyone whether resident or not and citizen or not. So what's the backup plan?)
 
Yes, the challenge of forcing you to understand why Cole's conclusions are absurd has proved to be insurmountable. As you point out, we've already wasted more than enough time chasing you around that barn, so instead I'll post my challenge for you to produce a single qualified physics or structural engineering professor who doesn't think that Cole's conclusions are absurd. It's a simple "independent investigation" you can easily do yourself: Pick some professors at random to ask for comments, and have the intellectual honesty to post all the replies you receive.
But of course this is another wasted post. You're not going to poke at your own bubble of ignorance.

Didn't you challenge him earlier to do this face-to-face, with professors at local universities? My guess is he'll never do that, just because of what you say- the important thing it to keep that bubble intact. The internet makes this easier, since it can have a certain insulating effect, and CT methodology is an exercise in maintaining insulation.

I say this as someone who used to be one- an earlier generation, to be sure, a die-hard JFK CTist who didn't have an internet that could have kept me informed (or use to keep me misinformed). But the self-insulation was the same- for every book that supported the "official story," there were twenty that took the opposite tack, and those were the ones I chose to read. I would go in a bookstore and see Mark Lane, Robert Groden, Harrison Livingstone, Robert Lifton, etc., etc., and one lonely Jim Moore. I would grab eagerly at the Lane or Lifton, and scoff (a little uncomfortably) at the Moore, but never read it, because it didn't tell me what I wanted to hear.

(Ironically, it was reading the Lifton- Best Evidence- that turned me around. Dear lord- 900-some pages of rickety theorizing based on one out of context quote from an FBI report, totally ignoring every other bit of consilient evidence for LHO's sole guilt. I wasn't, at that time, aware of the concept of consilience, but all that was still a bit much even for someone who wanted to believe.)
 
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I think this is a good time to post my challenge from the very first post in the very first thread on this subject.

There have been over 4000 posts since this first one and I am still waiting.

:D

And apparently you're incapable of, or too lazy to, read the my first couple of replies to you.

if you had bothered to read my posts (& the reference material I provided), you'd have found out that the MAXIMUM recommended scaling factor for dynamic models is around 10.

Maximum.

Let's assume that someone wanted to build a valid model of WTC 1 that examined only six crush stories, and also the four stories above the crush floor. (Just to examine "crush up/crush down" phenomenon, for example.)

You can represent the upper block with the equivalent weight of an "8 story" solid mass (assume 10' thick), plus 4 "representative structure" stories.

For the bottom portion, you need 6 more stories of "representative structure", and then a solid base (assume 5' thick) into which to set your whole model.

Since you cannot "scale" gravitational acceleration, you're going to have to leave the height of this model the SAME as it was in the towers: 12' per story. This will allow the upper descending mass to achieve the proper accelerations & velocities, once you get the rest of your details correct.

That means that, in order to construct a solid, valid, defensible model, one is going to need to build something that is on the order of:

20' wide x 20' long x 135' tall.
A 400 square foot x 11 story tall "experiment".

Tell Jonathan to get building...

Or you can do it yourself, and fail miserably.
Because, as we all know, "you're not an expert".

Guess what, FF.
Cole is precisely as clueless, as much of an amateur, as you are.

And that is an incredibly sad, incompetent state of affairs for someone who managed to get a degree in structural engineering.
 
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Here's what you don't understand.

Oh, geez…
The “I’m not an expert” queen is about to explain to me what I don’t understand about structural engineering …

This is like dealing with a spoiled, obnoxious 15 year old.
Who is somebody else’s kid, so you can’t smack ‘em upside the head.

Let's look at WTC7 and nothing else. Forget everything else, just focus on WTC7.

Sure thing.
Because there are no questions left on the collapse of the towers, Truthers are reduced to “chasing anomalies in innocent bystanders”.

The towers were the targets.
They hit the towers.

WTC7 was an innocent bystander, just like buildings 3, 4, 5 & 6, Fitterman Hall, the Verizon building, etc.

Why don’t you bring up the “inexplicable way that the elevated walkway between building 7 & building 6 collapsed.
That is exactly as "suspicious" …

1. Office fires burned uncontrolled for several hours. How they started is irrelevant. We know, for a fact, that there were fires in WTC7. No, the entire building did not burn, but there were fires.

And, along with the fires, the building became structurally unstable, as proven by the FDNY’s transit readings.

Just a little detail that you left out…

2. Regardless of when you start to measure the collapse initiation, and regardless of when you stop measuring it, freefall was observed for 2.25 seconds.

No, it was not.
Free fall is a CONSTANT acceleration.

If the acceleration was not CONSTANT, then it can NOT be “free fall”.

Look at the data points on NIST’s Velocity vs Time curve. Are the data points on the constant acceleration line?
NO, they are not.

What does this mean?
It means that the acceleration was NOT constant.
It was NOT free fall.

NIST says this happened, and it has been independently verified.

No, your amateur interpretation has been independently falsified.

NIST said “approximately free fall”.
NIST said “the linear interpolation (NOT the building itself) was approximately free fall.”

3. NIST did not explain freefall. They only said the columns buckled. This is not an explanation. An explanation would be one that described why the columns buckled.

NIST explained “near free fall” several times.

YOUR inability to understand what they wrote is NOT a scintilla of evidence that “they did not explain it”.

You’ve got the “I’m not an expert. I don’t understand nuthin’!” routine down to an art form.

Your inability to understand NIST’s explanations is a perverse little game of “you playing with yourself in public”.

4. NIST released a computer model but they did not release the data they used for their model.

They released 99% of the data.
There was very good reason for them to NOT release the data that they withheld.

NIST’s engineers did not have that data when they started.
They were competent enough to generate it.

Multiple other engineers have generated that data for their own models, too.

The only engineers who seem too incompetent to generate their own models are - surprise! - Truther engineers.
This has been a consistent pattern for a decade or so.

It emerged years ago, and there has been no evidence to the contrary, that “Truther engineer” is synonymous with “incompetent engineer”.

5. No steel-frame high rise collapsed before or since 9/11.

I’d really, really like you to reveal your thoughts on this little gem…

What role do you think that “high rise” plays in whether or not some structure collapses.
How does an inanimate piece of steel know whether it is in a “high rise” or a “low rise”, so that it knows whether or not to fail.

Now. When you look at these facts, it becomes obvious that the investigation was not complete.

All your “facts” are false.
All your innuendo is amateurish nonsense.

It is NOT a conspiracy theory to look at the evidence, then look at the NIST report, and then come to the conclusion that we need a new investigation. That is not a conspiracy theory.

Yup, that’s exactly what it is.
A conspiracy theory.
A baseless, laughable, Village Idiot, Conspiracy Theory.

Not one iota different than “aliens mutilating cows”, “aliens flying trillions of miles & then deciding to ‘communicate’ by stomping down hay in farmer’s fields”, or “alien flying trillions of miles using incredibly advanced technologies, and then crashing when they got here” Conspiracy Theory.

Some day, you’re going to realize that fact … and be terribly embarrassed at all of this.

No one is alleging a conspiracy.

Liar.
You are explicitly alleging a conspiracy on the part of the engineers who wrote the NIST report to deceive the public on the topic of “the causes of the collapse of those buildings”.

We are demanding a new investigation because there has not been a thorough one to begin with.

Your “demands” have been heard.
And dismissed as unnecessary, uninformed and unreasonable.

The basis for your demands have been heard.
And dismissed as clueless.
And laughed at.

Your assertion that “there has not been a thorough one to begin with” is the substance of the “conspiracy” that you just claimed “no one is alleging”.

Liar.
Why can’t you get your story straight?
 
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Oh, geez…
The “I’m not an expert” queen is about to explain to me what I don’t understand about structural engineering …

This is like dealing with a spoiled, obnoxious 15 year old.
Who is somebody else’s kid, so you can’t smack ‘em upside the head.



Sure thing.
Because there are no questions left on the collapse of the towers, Truthers are reduced to “chasing anomalies in innocent bystanders”.

The towers were the targets.
They hit the towers.

WTC7 was an innocent bystander, just like buildings 3, 4, 5 & 6, Fitterman Hall, the Verizon building, etc.

Why don’t you bring up the “inexplicable way that the elevated walkway between building 7 & building 6 collapsed.
That is exactly as "suspicious" …



And, along with the fires, the building became structurally unstable, as proven by the FDNY’s transit readings.

Just a little detail that you left out…



No, it was not.
Free fall is a CONSTANT acceleration.

If the acceleration was not CONSTANT, then it can NOT be “free fall”.

Look at the data points on NIST’s Velocity vs Time curve. Are the data points on the constant acceleration line?
NO, they are not.

What does this mean?
It means that the acceleration was NOT constant.
It was NOT free fall.



No, your amateur interpretation has been independently falsified.

NIST said “approximately free fall”.
NIST said “the linear interpolation (NOT the building itself) was approximately free fall.”



NIST explained “near free fall” several times.

YOUR inability to understand what they wrote is NOT a scintilla of evidence that “they did not explain it”.

You’ve got the “I’m not an expert. I don’t understand nuthin’!” routine down to an art form.

Your inability to understand NIST’s explanations is a perverse little game of “you playing with yourself in public”.



They released 99% of the data.
There was very good reason for them to NOT release the data that they withheld.

NIST’s engineers did not have that data when they started.
They were competent enough to generate it.

Multiple other engineers have generated that data for their own models, too.

The only engineers who seem too incompetent to generate their own models are - surprise! - Truther engineers.
This has been a consistent pattern for a decade or so.

It emerged years ago, and there has been no evidence to the contrary, that “Truther engineer” is synonymous with “incompetent engineer”.



I’d really, really like you to reveal your thoughts on this little gem…

What role do you think that “high rise” plays in whether or not some structure collapses.
How does an inanimate piece of steel know whether it is in a “high rise” or a “low rise”, so that it knows whether or not to fail.



All your “facts” are false.
All your innuendo is amateurish nonsense.



Yup, that’s exactly what it is.
A conspiracy theory.
A baseless, laughable, Village Idiot, Conspiracy Theory.

Not one iota different than “aliens mutilating cows”, “aliens flying trillions of miles & then deciding to ‘communicate’ by stomping down hay in farmer’s fields”, or “alien flying trillions of miles using incredibly advanced technologies, and then crashing when they got here” Conspiracy Theory.

Some day, you’re going to realize that fact … and be terribly embarrassed at all of this.



Liar.
You are explicitly alleging a conspiracy on the part of the engineers who wrote the NIST report to deceive the public on the topic of “the causes of the collapse of those buildings”.



Your “demands” have been heard.
And dismissed as unnecessary, uninformed and unreasonable.

The basis for your demands have been heard.
And dismissed as clueless.
And laughed at.

Your assertion that “there has not been a thorough one to begin with” is the substance of the “conspiracy” that you just claimed “no one is alleging”.

Liar.
Why can’t you get your story straight?

That whole "Let's look at WTC7 and nothing else...We are demanding a new investigation because there has not been a thorough one to begin with" post struck me when I first read it as a perfect example of CT methodology, and why, in 15 years, it's gone nowhere but in self-feeding circles. You can't demand a thorough investigation into a whole day's events, and simultaneously proclaim that an answer lies in one small part of it. FF, like most CTists, is demanding that a whole event be explained in the context of an anomaly, rather than that the anomaly be explained in the context of the whole event- that's about an anti-consilient approach as is possible (and this is even aside from the fact that what's posed as an anomaly almost always turns out to be just a gap between their misinformed expectations of reality and actual reality).

He's right, though, in a way, when he says he has no conspiracy theory, in the sense that he has no theory at all. And this is by CTist design- after all, if they had more to present than their mere opinion that the "official story is BS" in place of an actual coherent theory as to what happened, then they'd have something to test. And they know nothing they can present could withstand the sort of test (or investigation) they demand of the "official story"- it would be all anomaly.
 

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