The existence of God and the efficacy of prayer

[Donn]

If Einstein did not say it, does it falsify what seems like a reasonable statement if one believes God exists, but wishes his existence to remain hidden?

Why reach for Einstein at all? You think that's atheist holy water or we'll simply fold and begin muttering prayers?

You quoted him because you have nothing of substance. The quote is a post-hoc hack by fiends of similar bent who like to chum the waters and muddy the springs.

 

[turingtest]

No I mean I do not have the unabridged version, so I can check the context and see the context. Did Einstein write such a phrase in his letters? Or did he say say it in an interview? Or is it simply attributed to him because it seems like something he might say. I am not insisting he said it. I am trying to establish whether he did or did not; or if it is not determinable.

If Einstein did not say it, does it falsify what seems like a reasonable statement if one believes God exists, but wishes his existence to remain hidden?

Well, I don't know...suppose I were to do this-

"Religion, especially Christianity, is the ultimate paranoid conspiracy theory." Billy Graham (And he was serious)

-would the obvious fact that Graham never said any such thing falsify the opinion? There's nothing to falsify- as with the Einstein thing, it's just an opinion.

So, the question becomes, as Donn says, why attribute it to Einstein? Obviously, as Pixel says, it's to give weight to an opinion by attributing it to someone your audience is likely to consider an authority. Now it becomes a question of methodology. I'm sure that you didn't personally originate the attribution; but if you simply accepted it, and borrowed the authority to reinforce your opinion without checking to see if the authority ever actually said it...well. It indicates (best case) a somewhat sloppy line of thought, and makes one wonder how reliable any other evidence you may present could be.

 

[catsmate]

"Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous." - Albert Einstein.

And he was serious.

Why is it god botherers need to make up crap to support their belief? Are they so pathetically desperate for anything to prop up their weak faith?

 

[catsmate]

My reference. It appears he did not say it, he wrote it. If so, no contest.<snippage>

And again withe the desperate need to drag in Einstein.

 

[Wolrab]

Yes. Scientists frequently have to deal with data that have huge amounts of "noise". To find a pattern one has to filter out the noise. Many answers here point at raw data and say "See - randomness".

To design a "prayer filter" one has to understand some basics.

Would a God who hides in this "noise" want glaring examples of miracles in this day and age? Clearly he would not. So cut out all the obvious claims.

Why would God simply answer prayers because he is asked? This makes no sense, as atheists all point out. So cut out any prayer that God has no reason to answer. Make me rich for example, or I don't want to die now.

If God has a plan, why does not he not just let the Universe follow a simple deterministic path? There would be no "purpose" in such a universe. Just as people want "interactive" video games and movies, so the game of life is interactive. There are large parts that are predetermined, but there are times God chooses to intervene.

What kind of prayers would be answered, and why? Ones that would lead to changes in direction, and small changes can have huge implications. Most of the prayers I consider answered have been small request for assistance, and I believe the reason is to make me think.

{And I do not think I am unique in this at all. God needs to reinforce "goodness" (not necessarily religion). Satan works hard to cause chaos, and no doubt Satan influences religious leaders and clerics (politicians are ripe targets).}
Does one have to ask God in a particular way? This also makes no sense. If God is aware of things, he can intervene for the sake of helping good people.
Can one address a Saint, or an image, or an ancestor? Why not? God hears it anyway. But idol worship is considered akin to Satanic so one has to be careful. God would not answer a prayer to a jug of milk for more milk because it would be typical of a lazy idolatrous sod who should help himself.

Does one have to believe in God to get a prayer answered (even one that is not verbalized)? Again this does not make sense. The criteria is whether it serves the greater good, so I think even a moral atheist would get some assistance (even if they conitinue to believe such things are pure coincidence).

Does anyone know what God's plan is? Clearly no. But he may have been giving us some indication of the big picture in subtle ways. (Einstein stated that a mere mortal could not conceive of such a thing. Simple logic.)

Prayer filter= you know how to pray effectively?
"Clearly he would not." Why not? How do you know?
Satan works hard to cause chaos, and no doubt Satan influences religious leaders and clerics (politicians are ripe targets).} God should know this because Satan (at least the fan-fic christian version) is just another *(his first to some) creation of god. God seems to make many errors.
I read the rest as directly contradicting yourself. You know how to pray yet praying doesn't matter as god is already listening. You state no one knows god's plan but you have a leg up because.... you are you. It all looks like lies and self delusion to me.

 

[I Am The Scum]

When it stays much better than a 50/50 coin toss, I will stick with my way of going about life.

Flip a coin a hundred times. Pray for heads. Record your results.

(here comes the excuse for why he won't bother...)

 

[Sherman Bay]

All gods invented by man have been described as having various powers. Most are not considered omni-anything and have limited capacities and/or lifespans. Even the Christian god, despite the omniscient label frequently attached, is shown in the Bible to have major limitations (He can't totally control or eliminate the Devil, can't forgive original sin without a magic sacrifice, etc.).

So even if you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that some god exists, that doesn't automatically cause prayer to become a valid method of communication. For All We Know, this newly defined god communicates by Morse code toe-tapping or tea leaf reading but can't read minds or see through walls. Therefore, it would be an illogical leap of faith to assume that prayer is the default communication method.

 

[Garrette]

All gods invented by man have been described as having various powers. Most are not considered omni-anything and have limited capacities and/or lifespans. Even the Christian god, despite the omniscient label frequently attached, is shown in the Bible to have major limitations (He can't totally control or eliminate the Devil, can't forgive original sin without a magic sacrifice, etc.).
So even if you can prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that some god exists, that doesn't automatically cause prayer to become a valid method of communication. For All We Know, this newly defined god communicates by Morse code toe-tapping or tea leaf reading but can't read minds or see through walls. Therefore, it would be an illogical leap of faith to assume that prayer is the default communication method.

This. And not just in the bible. It is common in the apologetics, particularly regarding the problem of evil, to limit God's power. Suffering is necessary for learning or for spiritual growth; there can't be good without evil; people won't truly love without working toward it, etc., etc., etc.

All of which boils down to a tacit admission that God could not create people with perfect love and with perfect understanding, i.e., God is limited.

 

[IanS]

Given the hypothetical conditions I've outlined, which are that God exists and that you can contact him through prayer, would you pray?

It's not merely a hypothetical question. It's an attempt by you to impose a completely unreasonable condition, namely that a supernatural God exists, and then to ask questions which amount to asking if people would then act as if the God does exist. IOW it's a thinly veiled attempt to set up the answers that you want by asking us first to accept without evidence something utterly fantastical and completely unscientific.

You might as well be asking "lets assume that God does exist as the almighty creator described in the bible, then in that case do you agree it's reasonable to think that he might have created our world as well as doing anything else that he wanted to do?".

 

[Darat]

Why would you assume such a thing? Isn't it more parsimonious that there is no god, than that there is a god who is doing his/her best to remain hidden?

...snip...

And apparently doing a terrible job of hiding, so badly in fact that Part-Skeptic and many, many Christians have experienced proof that he exists.

This god seem pretty cackhanded if you ask me, seems he can't do anything right!

 

[fuelair]

Why is it god botherers need to make up crap to support their belief? Are they so pathetically desperate for anything to prop up their weak faith?

Yes, yes they are - and have been for a very long time in recorded history and likely before that!!!!!

 

[fuelair]

My question for Blue Triangle (which he likely won't answer, since he didn't in the other thread...) is how is your prayer/belief any different than the beliefs and prayers of jihadists who strap bombs to themselves and then go kill innocent people in the name of Allah? You're basing your belief on personal experience, revelation, visions etc--so are they...so what's the difference?

Hopefully BT and his kind are not killing people (anymore ) over it!!!!!

The jihadifellationists are>>>>>>>>>>>>>:

 

[I Am The Scum]

And apparently doing a terrible job of hiding, so badly in fact that Part-Skeptic and many, many Christians have experienced proof that he exists.

This god seem pretty cackhanded if you ask me, seems he can't do anything right!

And that's really the foolhardy nature of it all. The "miracles" are discernible enough to supply the religious guy with a good reason for believing. He can distinguish the difference between mere chance and God's magic....

Until someone actually needs to supply this belief with rigorous data. Then God goes into indiscernible mode. Now he has to hide. Can't go around supplying people with good reasons to believe, now can we?

The God of peak-a-boo.

 

[stanfr]

Hopefully BT and his kind are not killing people (anymore ) over it!!!!!

The jihadifellationists are>>>>>>>>>>>>>:

Yes, but how he acts on his faith and how he arrives at it are separate issues. He claims he has arrived at it through personal revelation. While I admittedly do not know, I strongly suspect based on interviews and articles on the subject that the radicals base their faith on the same principle. Some are acting for other reasons, political or psychological or whatever, but religious belief plays a role as well. I'd imagine you have to have some pretty strong convictions to follow through with a suicide. How does their belief in a supreme being differ from BT's?

 

[arthwollipot]

So, why are we debating this if it has been settled?

Because the results do not fit with some peoples' preferred narrative.

 

[SusanB-M1]

I wonder if I shall be waiting in vain for a response to my question about the process of prayer!

 

[Pixel42]

My question for Blue Triangle (which he likely won't answer, since he didn't in the other thread...) is how is your prayer/belief any different than the beliefs and prayers of jihadists who strap bombs to themselves and then go kill innocent people in the name of Allah? You're basing your belief on personal experience, revelation, visions etc--so are they...so what's the difference?

This is why unverifiable "revealed knowledge" is so potentially dangerous. You cannot reason someone out of a position then did not reason themselves into.

 

[Stuart]

I wonder if I shall be waiting in vain for a response to my question about the process of prayer!

As I was told when I was a card carrying christian "All you prayers will be answered in god's time, not yours" or "It isn't the right time to have that prayer answered". So none of the prayers for my father in law and then later my father (they both had cancer) got answered. Neither did my wife's nor my sister in law's prayers get answered when my my mother in law's health declined through vascular dementia over ten years.
When I "came out" as an atheist 20 years ago, both my wife and sister in law said that they would pray for me to turn back to god. Guess what, after in excess of 20000 prayers - I'm still an atheist.

 

[Rincewind]

I don't understand why prayer is necessary.

Surely God is supposed to know everything - so he already knows what you are about to pray for.

 

[Sherman Bay]

I don't understand why prayer is necessary.

Surely God is supposed to know everything - so he already knows what you are about to pray for.

Much prayer is supplication, asking that the laws of the Universe be altered to benefit the petitioner, admittedly unworthy.

(With a nod to Ambrose Bierce)