The existence of God and the efficacy of prayer

[LarryS]

The frequency and pattern of the "coincidences" is what makes me feel that it might work. When it stays much better than a 50/50 coin toss, I will stick with my way of going about life. Of course I do not ask unless I really need a solution. I also do not expect miracles. And no, I do not know what the exact formulae or rules are as to why some prayers get answered and some do not.

If the individual experiences of most people on this site are not what I have experienced (or seen others experience) that does not falsify mine.

Even if prayer had no efficacy - we'd expect outcomes far better than 50/50.

With everybody getting up in the AM Jonesing for a good day - it had better be better than 50/50 independent of any divine intervention. Throw in some God and we'd expect returns more like 95%

 

[John Nowak]

blue triangle's description of those experiences exactly matches the ones my Mormon friend says convince him of the validity of the Book of Mormon, including the 'still, small voice'. So either blue triangle is a Mormon, or he rejects at least some of the information 'revealed' by such experiences himself.

Yeah, I'm not surprised.

I like to read up on Egyptian history, and in the course of looking for discussions of archaeology I've stumbled across pages by people who claim to talk to Isis the same way.

 

[John Nowak]

A common straw-manning tactic used by atheists is to use a literal reading of chosen sections of scripture to portray God as a monster.

Which parts of the Bible do you consider to be written deceptively?

 

[Aepervius]

Pray to him, sincerely.

If you pray regularly and sincerely you will be heard and your life will change. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Well I prayed to a jug of milk, and lo and behold, I got more from it (milk) than I ever got from sincere prayer .

 

[Aepervius]

There are different ways of reading the Bible. A common straw-manning tactic used by atheists is to use a literal reading of chosen sections of scripture to portray God as a monster.

Yeah. Sure. I am betting you will regurgitate the usual justification for 1 Samuel 15:3-4 ... God is love and his justice is just or so, justifiyng that killing baby is a-ok and otehr apologetic crap. I am sure the non litteral reading is as good as the litteral one.

 

[fuelair]

The existence of God and the efficacy of prayer .

No and none!!! Hope this helps!!!

 

[Cat Not Included]

Let's just say a 'field of consciousness' from which everything came and which all religions are attempts to understand. Most have a name for this Consciousness, and although Buddhism doesn't, it does have concepts such as Infinite Love and the Buddha Nature. Let's say they are all like the blind men touching different parts of the elephant, because I don't want to lean towards any particular religion for this question. Let's callit Infinite Consciousness, or IC for short.

Let's just say, hypothetically, that it is proven beyond all doubt that IC exists, that IC gave birth to your consciousness in some way and that you can contact IC through prayer. Would you pray to IC?

Well, just for the heck of it, to consider the hypothetical you've actually set out...

First, what does "prayer" mean? To many modern religions, prayer is pretty much just "talking to someone else in your head". But in some versions, prayer might involve elaborate rituals or even sacrifice. So, I'll just assume the simplest version; all I had to do is think really sincerely, and I'll be in touch with the IC.

Does the IC want me to do this? It must get terribly annoying if people are pestering it all the time. Here the IC is, just trying to get through the season finale of the Walking Dead, and every twenty seconds it has to pause for some stupid question? Yeah, that wouldn't be very nice of me.

Is there any reason for me to contact it? Its some vast entity that views space and time in an entirely different way - are we going to be able to have any meaningful and interesting communication? Or can it relate to me just like a human, but what if in so doing its just like communicating with a human - a stranger who I don't know. "Um, hi, so...how's the weather there?". Lots of potential ground in which there's just not much point in opening up communication.

Can I get anything out talking to the IC? I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of interesting info it could potentially impart, but if its willing to, why don't we have that info yet? I'm sure other people have asked the IC for cures to cancer and blueprints for an FTL drive and a way to stop the endless remakes of 80s movies, but we don't seem to have any of those yet, so why should I think the IC will share this stuff with me?

Is it safe? Is the IC benevolent? Might it cause some trouble through a connection with me? Even if I take it for granted that its nice and kind, I'm well aware that there are a lot of claims that are also hostile, destructive and deceptive forces that people can contact via various means. If there's an IC to contact, might not these other forces also exist? People tell me, "Oh, prayer gets you to the IC and Ouija boards get you to malevolent forces", but how would they know? They explicitly define these other forces as deceptive, and it seems likely such beings could easily fool a human. Heck, humans can easily fool humans. How do I know that trying to talk to the IC isn't the first step on a trip to projectile vomiting while my head spins like a top, or drinking poison kool-aid in some nut-job's private hell on Earth?

 

[stanfr]

Yeah. Sure. I am betting you will regurgitate the usual justification for 1 Samuel 15:3-4 ... God is love and his justice is just or so, justifiyng that killing baby is a-ok and otehr apologetic crap. I am sure the non litteral reading is as good as the litteral one.

I hope BT responds with his 'interpretation' of that passage, it would be fun
Even the apolgetics shrug their shoulder at some of this stuff. I mean, I guess if the baby is Damien Omen IV it wouldn't be so heinous, but that's a bit of a reach...

 

[stanfr]

My question for Blue Triangle (which he likely won't answer, since he didn't in the other thread...) is how is your prayer/belief any different than the beliefs and prayers of jihadists who strap bombs to themselves and then go kill innocent people in the name of Allah? You're basing your belief on personal experience, revelation, visions etc--so are they...so what's the difference?

 

[Maurice Ledifficile]

Well, just for the heck of it, to consider the hypothetical you've actually set out...

First, what does "prayer" mean? To many modern religions, prayer is pretty much just "talking to someone else in your head". But in some versions, prayer might involve elaborate rituals or even sacrifice. So, I'll just assume the simplest version; all I had to do is think really sincerely, and I'll be in touch with the IC.

Does the IC want me to do this? It must get terribly annoying if people are pestering it all the time. Here the IC is, just trying to get through the season finale of the Walking Dead, and every twenty seconds it has to pause for some stupid question? Yeah, that wouldn't be very nice of me.

Is there any reason for me to contact it? Its some vast entity that views space and time in an entirely different way - are we going to be able to have any meaningful and interesting communication? Or can it relate to me just like a human, but what if in so doing its just like communicating with a human - a stranger who I don't know. "Um, hi, so...how's the weather there?". Lots of potential ground in which there's just not much point in opening up communication.

Can I get anything out talking to the IC? I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of interesting info it could potentially impart, but if its willing to, why don't we have that info yet? I'm sure other people have asked the IC for cures to cancer and blueprints for an FTL drive and a way to stop the endless remakes of 80s movies, but we don't seem to have any of those yet, so why should I think the IC will share this stuff with me?

Is it safe? Is the IC benevolent? Might it cause some trouble through a connection with me? Even if I take it for granted that its nice and kind, I'm well aware that there are a lot of claims that are also hostile, destructive and deceptive forces that people can contact via various means. If there's an IC to contact, might not these other forces also exist? People tell me, "Oh, prayer gets you to the IC and Ouija boards get you to malevolent forces", but how would they know? They explicitly define these other forces as deceptive, and it seems likely such beings could easily fool a human. Heck, humans can easily fool humans. How do I know that trying to talk to the IC isn't the first step on a trip to projectile vomiting while my head spins like a top, or drinking poison kool-aid in some nut-job's private hell on Earth?

 

[yog_sothoth]

In reality prayer could be used in a double blind experiment to figure out which religion is correct, if any. Set up prayer groups, rings of ceremonial magicians, Cthulhu cultists, and Jedi, and see who has the greatest effect on the health of people who do not know they are being prayed for.

If a prayer group wins, you can find out which major religion has the ear of the divine. If the earth is swallowed by dark eldrich horror, you can reflect on the folly of praying to a god like Cthulhu for any reason.

 

[arthwollipot]

Something like that has been done - though as far as I know with no eldritch horrors.

The people in the group that were prayed for did not differ significantly in their outcomes from the people who were not prayed for. Unless they knew that they were being prayed for, in which case they did worse.

 

[yog_sothoth]

Something like that has been done - though as far as I know with no eldritch horrors.

The people in the group that were prayed for did not differ significantly in their outcomes from the people who were not prayed for. Unless they knew that they were being prayed for, in which case they did worse.

So, why are we debating this if it has been settled?

I do believe those studies didn't include Cthulhu cultists, limiting their scope. So many gods were left off the list.

Ironically if you pray to Odin and you avoid a death in battle it means that he didn't like you.

 

[MikeG]

........And no, I do not know what the exact formulae or rules are as to why some prayers get answered and some do not.....

Have you actually seriously considered whether there is any difference between randomly answered prayers and just randomness in a godless world?

 

[PartSkeptic]

And most likely didn't even say what PS attributes to him (scroll down a little).

My reference. It appears he did not say it, he wrote it. If so, no contest.

http://www.goodreads.com/author/quotes/9810.Albert_Einstein

"Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous."
— Albert Einstein (The World As I See It)

The 1949 abridged version does not have the quote. I will have to buy the unabridged version, but someone out there may have it to check the context. I think at this time in his life Einstein probably did not mean it the way it seems when not in context.

At this time in his life Einstein was evolving in his religious thinking. He was sent to a Catholic School, but became interested in Judaism. He became slowly irreligious, but it seems he drifted back towards a God of creation who took no part in the universe.

As most Jewish people do, he did never accepted the afterlife, or a separate soul. I do not think he would have been offered the presidency of Israel if he did not believe in a God of creation.

https://archive.org/stream/AlbertEi...rld_as_I_See_it-AlbertEinsteinUpByTj_djvu.txt

The fairest thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the fundamental emotion which stands at the cradle of true art and true science. He who knows it not and can no longer wonder, no longer feel amazement, is as good as dead, a snuffed-out candle. It was the experience of mystery—even if mixed with fear— that engendered religion. A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary forms— it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man. I cannot conceive of a God who rewards and punishes his creatures, or has a will of the type of which we are conscious in ourselves.

An individual who should survive his physical death is also beyond my comprehension, nor do I wish it otherwise; such notions are for the fears or absurd egoism of feeble souls. Enough for me the mystery of the eternity of life, and the inkling of the marvellous structure of reality, together with the single-hearted endeavour to comprehend a portion, be it never so tiny, of the reason that manifests itself in nature.

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1936731_1936743_1936862,00.html
Belief
…His objection to quantum mechanics was that it assumed that the realities of the universe depended on our observation of it, which conflicted with his own faith that there was a reality that existed independent of our ability to observe it.
Ancestry
Near the end of his life, he was offered the presidency of Israel, which he politely declined
Faith
Did Einstein believe in God?
Yes. He defined God in an impersonal, deistic fashion, but he deeply believed that God's handiwork was reflected in the harmony of nature's laws and the beauty of all that exists. He often invoked God, such as by saying He wouldn't play dice, when rejecting quantum mechanics. Einstein's belief in something larger than himself produced in him a wondrous mixture of confidence and humility. As he famously declared: "A spirit is manifest in the laws of the Universe — a spirit vastly superior to that of man, and one in the face of which we with our modest powers must feel humble. In this way the pursuit of science leads to a religious feeling of a special sort."
When asked directly if he believed in God, he always insisted he did, and explained it once this way: "We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws."

 

[Pixel42]

The 1949 abridged version does not have the quote.

You mean the original version which was published before he died doesn't have it. A version which was published 50 years later, and includes other quotes sometimes attributed to him, does.

Einstein did not believe in a personal God. It is extremely unlikely that he said it, or anything remotely resembling it.

ETA: From the wikiquotes link given by turingtest

Coincidence is God's way of remaining anonymous.

The source generally (but falsely) cited is Einstein's The World As I See It (1949). The quotation is probably a translation of "Der Zufall ist das Pseudonym, das der liebe Gott wählt, wenn er inkognito bleiben will" (attributed to Albert Schweitzer).

 

[PartSkeptic]

Have you actually seriously considered whether there is any difference between randomly answered prayers and just randomness in a godless world?

Yes. Scientists frequently have to deal with data that have huge amounts of "noise". To find a pattern one has to filter out the noise. Many answers here point at raw data and say "See - randomness".

To design a "prayer filter" one has to understand some basics.

Would a God who hides in this "noise" want glaring examples of miracles in this day and age? Clearly he would not. So cut out all the obvious claims.

Why would God simply answer prayers because he is asked? This makes no sense, as atheists all point out. So cut out any prayer that God has no reason to answer. Make me rich for example, or I don't want to die now.

If God has a plan, why does not he not just let the Universe follow a simple deterministic path? There would be no "purpose" in such a universe. Just as people want "interactive" video games and movies, so the game of life is interactive. There are large parts that are predetermined, but there are times God chooses to intervene.

What kind of prayers would be answered, and why? Ones that would lead to changes in direction, and small changes can have huge implications. Most of the prayers I consider answered have been small request for assistance, and I believe the reason is to make me think.

{And I do not think I am unique in this at all. God needs to reinforce "goodness" (not necessarily religion). Satan works hard to cause chaos, and no doubt Satan influences religious leaders and clerics (politicians are ripe targets).}

Does one have to ask God in a particular way? This also makes no sense. If God is aware of things, he can intervene for the sake of helping good people.

Can one address a Saint, or an image, or an ancestor? Why not? God hears it anyway. But idol worship is considered akin to Satanic so one has to be careful. God would not answer a prayer to a jug of milk for more milk because it would be typical of a lazy idolatrous sod who should help himself.

Does one have to believe in God to get a prayer answered (even one that is not verbalized)? Again this does not make sense. The criteria is whether it serves the greater good, so I think even a moral atheist would get some assistance (even if they conitinue to believe such things are pure coincidence).

Does anyone know what God's plan is? Clearly no. But he may have been giving us some indication of the big picture in subtle ways. (Einstein stated that a mere mortal could not conceive of such a thing. Simple logic.)

 

[PartSkeptic]

You mean the original version which was published before he died doesn't have it. A version which was published 50 years later, and includes other quotes sometimes attributed to him, does.

No I mean I do not have the unabridged version, so I can check the context and see the context. Did Einstein write such a phrase in his letters? Or did he say say it in an interview? Or is it simply attributed to him because it seems like something he might say. I am not insisting he said it. I am trying to establish whether he did or did not; or if it is not determinable.

If Einstein did not say it, does it falsify what seems like a reasonable statement if one believes God exists, but wishes his existence to remain hidden?

 

[Pixel42]

No I mean I do not have the unabridged version

There is no unabridged version. There's the original version, and a version to which stuff has been added.

You do know what the verb "to abridge" means?

If Einstein did not say it, does it falsify what seems like a reasonable statement if one believes God exists, but wishes his existence to remain hidden?

Attributing it to Einstein invests it with a spurious authority. It's a trite statement which displays profound ignorance of probability theory.

 

[MikeG]

.......Would a God who hides.......

Why would you assume such a thing? Isn't it more parsimonious that there is no god, than that there is a god who is doing his/her best to remain hidden?

Your long answer to my question says very clearly to me that you have decided that there is a god, and subsequent to that decision you are selecting only data which can be (mis-)read to support that viewpoint. You then add to this another spurious made-up entity, by invoking the notion of satan, which has precisely the same lack-of-evidence as your god.