The existence of God and the efficacy of prayer

The Greater Fool said:
"There may be no god. Worse, there may be a god with which I completely disagree." (Ashleigh Brilliant)

If your god exists, it is definitely in the "with which I completely disagree" camp. I would not pray to such a being, I would accuse it.
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I would help you figure out how to kill it.
 
blue triangle said:
If it were proven beyond doubt that God is not an invention, but our Creator and Sustainer, and that the only way to get in contact with God is to pray, would you pray?
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Who wouldn't. The niggle is in your first sentence. This apparently all mighty being that can orchestrate your second channel seems rather non all mighty when it comes to the proof bit.
 
blue triangle said:
I wasn't asking about two way communication. I was asking if you would be prepared to contact God if you knew he existed and if prayer was the way to contact him. I was asking if you would take the first step, with no expectations or preconditions.
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No, you mentioned "proof".

blue triangle said:
But they have, Delvo!
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...with a remarkable lack of effect; as if they were "praying" to something that isn't there...

blue triangle said:
I never said God would answer all your prayers, either in my hypothetical situation or in real life. He might give an obvious answer to some of them but that is not guaranteed, or not at least in the way you want.
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...you did mention "proof"...

blue triangle said:
But everyone's situation is unique and every age has its own problems. There are always new situations, new problems, new reasons to turn to God.
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Ah. This old crippled canard. "If 'god' answers a prayer, that proves its will; if it does nothing, that also proves its will. No wonder you keep sidestepping the "proof" issue...
 
Pixel42 said:
What form would these answers take?
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You might hear an audible answer (the 'still, small voice'). You might see a picture in your mind, you might get a feeling, or some combination of them. You might have a dream. Something in your life might change. You may feel stuck in your job and an opportunity opens up. There are a million ways it could happen and although you might not be sure the first or second or third time it happens, with continued use of prayer your confidence in it will grow. I'm talking about how it really is for some of us now, of course, not hypothesising.

Pixel42 said:
Then how would I tell the difference between prayers sometimes being answered and what would have happened anyway if no prayers had been made?
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As I said, with continued use. But sometimes it is very, very obvious.

Pixel42 said:
It didn't when I prayed desperately when I was 12.
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It didn't happen for me either when I prayed as a child. I suspect you have to live a little first and have your shell cracked a bit. Try again.

Pixel42 said:
But I don't, do I? Your hypothetical is contradicted by a lifetime of experience. All the people who are convinced there is such an entity are obviously fooling themselves.
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No, they are not. People in ivory towers are the ones fooling themselves.
 
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The Greater Fool said:
"There may be no god. Worse, there may be a god with which I completely disagree." (Ashleigh Brilliant)

If your god exists, it is definitely in the "with which I completely disagree" camp. I would not pray to such a being, I would accuse it.
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You don't know what my God is. But if you want to accuse God, go ahead. At least the lines of communication would be open.
 
blue triangle said:
You might hear an audible answer (the 'still, small voice'). You might see a picture in your mind, you might get a feeling, or some combination of them. You might have a dream. Something in your life might change. You may feel stuck in your job and an opportunity opens up. There are a million ways it could happen and although you might not be sure the first or second or third time it happens, with continued use of prayer your confidence in it will grow. I'm talking about how it really is for some of us now, of course, not hypothesising.
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How could anything like that ever convince me, when it could so easily be my own mind manufacturing such experiences?

As I said, with continued use. But sometimes it is very, very obvious.
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How could it ever be obvious, when it could so easily be my own cognitive biases causing me to think I see correlations where none actually exist?

It didn't happen for me either when I prayed as a child. I suspect you have to live a little first and have your shell cracked a bit. Try again.
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I assure you I had already lived a little, and had my shell cracked more than a bit. Besides I have tried again - quite a few times in my 62 years - with no result.

People in ivory towers are the ones fooling themselves.
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I agree. We just disagree about who the ones in the ivory towers are.
 
blue triangle said:
You might hear an audible answer (the 'still, small voice'). You might see a picture in your mind, you might get a feeling, or some combination of them. You might have a dream. Something in your life might change. You may feel stuck in your job and an opportunity opens up. There are a million ways it could happen and although you might not be sure the first or second or third time it happens, with continued use of prayer your confidence in it will grow. I'm talking about how it really is for some of us now, of course, not hypothesising.
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Exactly the same as relating your thoughts to a good listener, then. And exactly the same as those who simply calmly reflect on their own circumstances.

In other words, answered prayers are indistinguishable from not-answered prayers.
 
We seem to be back to the millennium old Christian apologetics. Any chance we can get back to the topic of this thread, I. E. A God that is crap at maths and making itself known?
 
Maurice Ledifficile said:
Okay, if it actually turned out (but it doesn't) that there is a "consciousness" listening, I might talk to it.

Unless it's that asswipe from the bible. Then, **** him.
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blue triangle said:
Okay, another yes then.
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Darat said:
It is apparently the god described in the text of the Bible, and if it isn't how do you know about this God?
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It can't be the god of the bible, otherwise he would have taken my answer as "**** him", as opposed to "yes"...
 
blue triangle said:
I said you could contact God through prayer. I didn't say God wouldn't answer you.



A dialogue would begin, yes, and questions might be answered. You would be the junior partner here though, so you wouldn't have an answering machine at your disposal.



Similarly to the above, healings might be done. But it's more to do with sincerity than niceness and it might be that person's time to leave anyway.



It might let you know it was there if you prayed. It might let you know you are loved. It might arrange for an event to teach you something . . . If people around you got answers and you didn't seem to get anything there might be a reason for that you hadn't guessed. Would you really give up so easily if you knew God was there?
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God as a cock teaser? A coy little nymphette that might answer sometimes?

No thanks. Given this creature's historical monstrosity, I would reject that creature and try to have as little to do with it as possible.

Death would be preferable to spending eternity at the whim of an all-powerful xenophobic genocidal head-game-playing egotistical creature like the one depicted in your bible.

And I don't say that lightly.
 
blue triangle said:
What form would these answers take?

You might hear an audible answer (the 'still, small voice'). You might see a picture in your mind, you might get a feeling, or some combination of them. You might have a dream. Something in your life might change. You may feel stuck in your job and an opportunity opens up. There are a million ways it could happen and although you might not be sure the first or second or third time it happens, with continued use of prayer your confidence in it will grow. I'm talking about how it really is for some of us now, of course, not hypothesising.



As I said, with continued use. But sometimes it is very, very obvious.



It didn't happen for me either when I prayed as a child. I suspect you have to live a little first and have your shell cracked a bit. Try again.



No, they are not. People in ivory towers are the ones fooling themselves.
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You didn't comment on my experience with the Mormons. They all claimed this same bs, but I had nothing. That's because I grew up as an atheist (that's with no concept of god, it was just never mentioned. I didn't really know religion existed until the 5 years I spent dealing with the hypocrites and liars that said what you are saying now, in my teens).

In your ignorance (you never will read the book I urged you to read, so you will remain ignorant in your arrogance) these minor glitches in brain function are suggestive and important. Basing your entire life on a meaningless twitch that you have imbued with cosmic significance is dangerous, foolish, immoral and stupid.

And teaching children to do so is child abuse.
 
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This hypothetical game is just an attempt at some kind of gotcha. It's completely pointless. Like a game of make-believe, except that games are good for children (and adults, if played for fun), but this is just a waste of time.

Here's another hypothetical: if god turned out to be satan in disguise (not a very effective disguise, as it's obvious to me that the bible god is one and the same as satan), would you still pray to keep on the good side of god, and condemn the others to his bad side, if that's what it took?

You don't like this hypothetical, do you? But to me this is a far more realistic depiction of the situation we are facing than the completely divorced from this world game you are playing.

You've witnessed.
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blue triangle said:
You don't know what my God is. But if you want to accuse God, go ahead. At least the lines of communication would be open.
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prayer
noun
1. a devout petition to God or an object of worship.
2. a spiritual communion with God or an object of worship, as in supplication, thanksgiving, adoration, or confession.
3. the act or practice of praying to God or an object of worship.

Sorry, your god is not worthy of our attention, let alone our worship.
 
Yep, nonexistence sounds a lot more appealing than what that terrible, murderous and monstrous creature has planed for those he has already decided to eternally "punish".
 
Darat said:
It is apparently the god described in the text of the Bible
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There are different ways of reading the Bible. A common straw-manning tactic used by atheists is to use a literal reading of chosen sections of scripture to portray God as a monster. Richard Dawkins does it in The God Delusion. And in doing so they're trying to show how this God isn't worthy of worship or even attention. But the nature of God is hardly the issue here. It's the existence of God that's the issue. If God does exist, then you'll just have to deal with it.
 
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