Creationist argument about DNA and information

I'm not refuting any of that, nor do I think scientists would.


Not any worth their salt.


The proposed mechanisms are much different that what you describe because they agree with you.


Not following.


The disagreement centers around the conclusion you draw, not the set-up.


Not following.


Daniel: Then the WOOLLY Mammoth in the Room...

B. How Did Stupid Atoms Write Their Own Software....? In other words, show how Ink/Paper/Glue Molecules can Author Technical Instruction Manuals/Blueprints...?
marplots: Exactly. That's the interesting thing - how did it happen? How might it have happened? What steps are needed before we get to the part with the functioning cell, or life as we might recognize it?


Now we are discussing a completely different aspect IN TOTO. Above we were discussing the "Physical Molecules" (Hardware), this is speaking to "INFORMATION" (Software). See that Highlighted Part?? Basically, you need to show this...?

You (or anyone for that matter) will NEVER EVER be able to reconcile this. "Information"/CODE is only ever ever ever created/reconciled by Intelligent Agency, without Exception. Hard Stop!

There's no way out.


It's not an argument, it's a postulate.


Postulate: 1. to ask, demand, or claim. 2. to claim or assume the existence or truth of, especially as a basis for reasoning or arguing.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/postulate


You are in the same position. You can postulate some intelligent designer if you like, but even if you have one in mind, you still need to prove they actually did what you think they did and it wasn't just natural laws playing out.


Actually I'm not. My Argument/Position is an Intelligent Designer and "Information" is the compelling Factor in the matter; EXHIBIT A to Z. Your appeal here is...

You walk into a restaurant, open up the Menu and read "Peking Duck with Roasted Garlic $28.95" ---- INFORMATION; then conclude, that until you see the Specific Intelligent Agent that wrote it.... that there's an Equal Chance that the Ink/Paper/Glue Molecules that make up the menu are responsible for the: Construction, Arrangement of the Letters, and the Message Thereof !!

DNA contains INFORMATION: Algorithms "Programs" within "Programs" in Sub-Folders of "Programs". It has enough Functionally Specific Complex Information (1/1000th of which would make Einstein Blush) in a teaspoon to fill a stack of Books from here to the Moon 500 Times! Your conclusion: Absent the Specific Intelligent Agent...... Ribose, Nucleo-Bases, and Activated Phosphates (The Ink/Paper/Glue Molecules) wrote The "Programs" (Menu).....Genetic CODE !!
Quite an absurd appeal, don't you think?



regards
 
Daniel,

Do you think the Earth is: thousands, millions, or billions of years old? Or some other age?

I'm going for 4.5-billion years, which is a lot of time for evolution to work. Even if it took several hundred million years for life to form.
 
For example?

This "for example" referred to accepting strange things about the universe. It's been agreed upon by many that QM is strange. Perhaps a synonym could be "counterintuitive." The "spooky action at a distance" of entangled photon pairs might be a good example.

In high school physics I got a decent grounding in Newton's laws. Given an ellipse I could derive the formula and given the formula I could plot an elliptical orbit that corresponded with what I knew about the inverse-square property of gravitational attraction. But I knew that didn't scale down to the size of an atom; electrons do not orbit the proton as the Earth orbits the sun. Do they?

I've watched the BBT too and "the whole universe was in a hot dense state" doesn't begin to capture the WOOOMPPHHH! that must have been required to blow something the size of a pinhead (if that; a cosmologist once told me "smaller than a proton") into this universe. And since the thing had a beginning I'm still stuck on the question: "What about before the beginning?"

For this reason I have some patience with creationists. Allowing for a creator isn't the hard part for me. I draw the line at a 6,000-year-old Earth and what must (to a YEC) look like a vast egghead conspiracy to hoodwink schoolchildren by showing them fossils and going on field trips to the Grand Canyon.

For example?

This "for example" alluded to my statement that "I need more math." When I read cosmology books I get analogies, such as the raisin cake that expands while baking, thus pushing the raisins farther apart. I can read about an electron's "spin" and as a laywoman picture a tiny top rotating merrily, but that's not quite literally true. Or is it? Googling gets me to a definition: "the electron's electromagnetic field angular momentum." At one time I understood the models for centrifugal and centripetal forces, but some review is in order - and still my understanding would be limited to macro objects, like how race cars can become airborne on a flat track.

I can further infer my ignorance by analogy: This week I helped put together a trigonometry "pre-test" for high school students. We give them the same test in 10 weeks to prove they learned something. I know these students, and can easily predict their scores: They will cluster around 17 percent. That's because most of the test is multiple choice with 5 choices, but there are also two "free response" questions. One involves filling in a blank unit circle (which it turns out is really only about converting degrees to radians; no coordinates needed). They know degrees, but most have probably had no exposure to radians. They don't know what buttons to push, given sine theta, to find theta, I'm pretty darn sure.

I know more than they do, but it's relative. I don't know what all the buttons on my graphing calculator do. Therefore, I have a lot to learn.
 
Daniel,

Do you think the Earth is: thousands, millions, or billions of years old? Or some other age?


I think it's 7,000 - 10,000. But it's all quite irrelevant to me as long as there was NO: Death/Disease/Suffering/Thorns before Adam.


I'm going for 4.5-billion years, which is a lot of time for evolution to work.


Blind Conjecture. And...

"evolution"...what's that?? Post the Scientific Theory of evolution...?


Even if it took several hundred million years for life to form.


Blind Conjecture with additional Scientific Law Violating garnish.

No offense but this is a Fairytale "Just So" Story telling Dreamland Claim.

regards
 
I think it's 7,000 - 10,000. But it's all quite irrelevant to me as long as there was NO: Death/Disease/Suffering/Thorns before Adam.

Unsupported claim, and a just so story that fits your preconceived beliefs, without any basis in fact. In other words: It;s DanielScience




Blind Conjecture. And...

"evolution"...what's that?? Post the Scientific Theory of evolution...?

People have. Do you need help with the bigger words?




Blind Conjecture with additional Scientific Law Violating garnish.

No offense but this is a Fairytale "Just So" Story telling Dreamland Claim.

regards

Argument by Incredulity.
 
Maybe you aren't communicating your thoughts clearly. You seem to be saying that the mere existence of physical laws is sufficient evidence for an intelligence behind them.

I see no reason why one would think that, and you haven't made a coherent case for it - seeming to conflate discovery of something with the thing itself.

You are coming up with increasingly convoluted ideas when the reality is simple:

Natural selection is a logical consequence of there being finite resources for life on this planet at any one time. The fact that heredity is imperfect provides a source of variation. Evolution is a logical inevitability given these facts alone.


Arguing the issue of ‘intelligence’ is a strawman.

Quite obviously a horse could not generate the laws of physics. Nor could a cockroach, or an amoeba, or a dolphin, or a fig tree, or a donut. The list could go on for eternity and no one (no one anywhere anyhow) would have any difficulty filling it with things that could in no way shape or form be expected to come within light years of being able to comprehend / generate ‘laws of physics’.

Meaning…that the word ‘intelligence’ has a very robustly defined normative definition. You could easily fill one side of the list with a million entries. Only one is obvious on the other. A human being. The difference between the two sides is one word: intelligence (or degree thereof).

IOW…no (or insufficient) intelligence…no laws of physics.

If ‘conditional’ intelligence (normative) is a prerequisite to merely discover the reduced laws of physics (which is what we do…reduced simply because we discover models, approximations, representations, etc.), then ‘something’ with the capacity to actually generate ‘the thing in itself’ (whatever the laws of physics actually are modeled after) must have an equivalently greater intelligence. IOW...not just intelligence as we struggle to comprehend / define it...but the instantiation of intelligence! The 'real' meaning of it.

IOW…intelligence (whatever we mean by it) is explicitly (but not exclusively) associated with the activity we refer to as modeling / comprehending laws of physics. If the laws of physics are, in fact, instantiated in reality…then it is evidence that intelligence is as well.

So…all we can manage is a normative relationship between intelligence and the laws of physics. Nothing else is possible, irrespective of the science.

What is argued by others here…is that because all we can manage is a normative relationship, that relationship is sufficiently flawed to dismiss the whole definition.

…meaning…that it is NOT reasonable to explicitly conclude that intelligence is required to generate / comprehend laws of physics.

Find me anyone who would agree with that!

Even then…the argument falters when we establish the dimensions of what we are dealing with. We aren’t just talking about discovering comprehending the laws of physics, we are talking about something that can create / govern them (assuming they are, in fact, instantiated in reality).

Were they created? Don’t know of course…but if they do, in fact, exist…they, by definition, implicate an intelligence of vast proportions. If for no other reason than that…however conditional or qualified our definition of intelligence… intelligence is still unequivocally associated with the complexity and comprehension that inevitably occur anywhere even remotely in the range of laws-of-physics (like I said…you could create a list of a billion entries that could not even begin to comprehend / generate a law of physics…and one that could; the difference between the two would be one word: intelligence).

…in fact…whenever we see intellectual achievement (intelligence) of such dimensions we don’t just refer to it as intelligence, we refer to it is hyper-intelligence. Genius. Savant. We actually run out of words to represent how intelligent such intelligence actually is. Just for example...what has the word 'Einstein' become a cliche for: Extraordinary intelligence!

…we drift into the realm of the super-intelligent. Which, by any measure, would immediately describe something with the capacity to not just design a carbon molecule, but create / govern the laws that decide what it will do.



The next question is: What evidence is there that the laws of physics actually are instantiated in reality?

That evidence is far more explicit and conclusive and has been argued by no end of skeptics themselves on these very threads.

Thus it is quite reasonable to conclude that some manner of ‘laws of physics’ are, in fact, instantiated in reality. We just have no idea what or how.

Since it is reasonable to conclude that ‘laws of physics’ are an explicit function of intelligence (according to every normative paradigm that you, me, and everyone practices)…and it is reasonable to conclude that ‘laws of physics’ are instantiated in reality (as just about every skeptic argues in some way shape or form)…then it is therefore reasonable to conclude that some manner of intelligence is also instantiated in reality.
 
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I wonder what Jesus was doing today. He died yesterday, then he comes back to life tomorrow.

God killed himself to save us from himself. It's a pretty big gesture, but it is the original Darwin Award: the suicidal, homicidal God.

I only mention this because the candidate God cannot satisfy a reasonable definition of intelligence. Obviously this God represents "intelligent life" in the sense of more wits than a rock, yes. But for this one to have designed the universe, no - not him.
 
Well we know that the Universe had a Beginning see (1LOT/2LOT); Therefore, The CREATOR must be Outside of and not a Product of it.



List the 'gods', that by their precepts, have laid claim to creating the universe...?

And we'll evaluate each based on known Scientific Laws.



regards



That is not an answer to the question.

I asked you which God/creator created the universe. If you can't we understand, there are so many equally valid ones to choose from.
 
That is not an answer to the question.

I asked you which God/creator created the universe. If you can't we understand, there are so many equally valid ones to choose from.

We should get to vote. The gods could go on a magic campaign. Then everyone who's religious gets to pray to the god they elected, until it gets voted out.
 
Lest we forget: Daniel is a YEC.

Creationists are not interested in science. Their mission is POLITICAL.

Bible in the classroom. No abortions. Don’t be gay, or you can’t marry or adopt. Man > Woman. Etc.
 
This "for example" referred to accepting strange things about the universe. It's been agreed upon by many that QM is strange. Perhaps a synonym could be "counterintuitive." The "spooky action at a distance" of entangled photon pairs might be a good example.


It's only: "strange", "counter-intuitive", "weird", "paradoxical" ect, if you're a Materialist/Realist. Idealist (Christians) --- we're Good! :thumbsup: :D



For this reason I have some patience with creationists.


Thanks for your patience.


Allowing for a creator isn't the hard part for me. I draw the line at a 6,000-year-old Earth and what must (to a YEC) look like a vast egghead conspiracy to hoodwink schoolchildren by showing them fossils and going on field trips to the Grand Canyon.


You also draw the Line @ Actual Science too. The "Dating Game" (Age) is outside the purview of the Scientific Method; it's goal is to elucidate "Cause and Effect" relationships between Variables.
Attempting to Extrapolate Age via the Scientific Method is tantamount to using a Framing Square to calculate the GNP of The Netherlands; it's Non-Sequitur10000...
Also...

1. How do they explain the billions of fossils without a World-Wide Flood?

2. How do they explain Dino-Soft Tissue in 80-120 Million Year Old BONES (Not Fossils)?
Current Soft Tissue Record Holder is 550 Million Years Old (Tube Worms).

3. How fast can fossils form?

4. How do they explain the formation of the Grand Canyon?

5. How do they explain the 160 million years of missing strata in the GC?


regards
 
Lest we forget: Daniel is a YEC.

Creationists are not interested in science. Their mission is POLITICAL.

Bible in the classroom. No abortions. Don’t be gay, or you can’t marry or adopt. Man > Woman. Etc.

And financial.

Conmen like Kent Hovind love people who are gullible enough to believe in YEC. People who are dumb enough to pay to enter a "museum" he runs that teaches their kids how Dinosaurs shared Earth with Adam & Eve!

And let's be honest here, "gullible" is a very polite description for such folk.

Not to worry, I predict that Daniel will go quiet in a few days time.
 
Hmmm

Perhaps I have misunderstood; let me rephrase, leaving out all but the essential genes words (and adding some bold): "It is physically impossible for any X to form from Y, outside a cell; the definition of X includes "inside a cell"".

Is that about right?

Yeah, pretty much.
 
Actually I'm not. My Argument/Position is an Intelligent Designer and "Information" is the compelling Factor in the matter; EXHIBIT A to Z. Your appeal here is...

You walk into a restaurant, open up the Menu and read "Peking Duck with Roasted Garlic $28.95" ---- INFORMATION; then conclude, that until you see the Specific Intelligent Agent that wrote it.... that there's an Equal Chance that the Ink/Paper/Glue Molecules that make up the menu are responsible for the: Construction, Arrangement of the Letters, and the Message Thereof !!

DNA contains INFORMATION: Algorithms "Programs" within "Programs" in Sub-Folders of "Programs". It has enough Functionally Specific Complex Information (1/1000th of which would make Einstein Blush) in a teaspoon to fill a stack of Books from here to the Moon 500 Times! Your conclusion: Absent the Specific Intelligent Agent...... Ribose, Nucleo-Bases, and Activated Phosphates (The Ink/Paper/Glue Molecules) wrote The "Programs" (Menu).....Genetic CODE !!
Quite an absurd appeal, don't you think?

Yes, absurd if that is a good analogy. I don't think it is.

There seems to me to be quite a category difference between things like menus and things we would say were alive. One in particular is metabolism - menus don't seem to "do" anything. They are static, sterile - quite unlike living things.

DNA is much more like a part in a complex machine.
 
[qimg]http://static.ddmcdn.com/gif/viruses-with-immune-systems-660x433-picture-130227.jpg[/qimg]

ETA: Well, that and the most important catalyst in the cell isn't a protein at all, it's RNA (ribozyomes)

Look at all that Information! A phallic symbol orthogonal to a pentagram. :boxedin:

No one can convince me that this was the end result of natural selection. Obviously it was Designed by Beelzebub! :jaw-dropp
 
Attempting to Extrapolate Age via the Scientific Method is tantamount to using a Framing Square to calculate the GNP of The Netherlands; it's Non-Sequitur

Actually, by your definitions, it is not possible to know the GNP of The Netherlands since the experimenter is not free to modify an independent variable. How is that response on independent variables coming btw?

1. How do they explain the billions of fossils without a World-Wide Flood?
2. How do they explain Dino-Soft Tissue in 80-120 Million Year Old BONES (Not Fossils)?
Current Soft Tissue Record Holder is 550 Million Years Old (Tube Worms).
3. How fast can fossils form?
4. How do they explain the formation of the Grand Canyon?
5. How do they explain the 160 million years of missing strata in the GC?

There's group of people called geologists, they actually specialize in this sort of thing. They even write books, papers, blogs, etc. You could easily look up the answers to these questions. And actually, to save time, since the canards above are repeated by creationists so regularly, there is a website where you can find all that information in one place. Check out:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/hovind/howgood-gc.html

to start. While the above questions can answered quite satisfactorily by a geologist, they lead to much bigger problems with the YEC. Like, how did a flood only a few thousand years ago create fossils in thousands of feet of solid rock? Why are the fossils layered in a sequence? Why does that sequence match with other dating methods? Why does God hate dinosaurs? How could a feature clearly formed by slow erosion such as the Grand Canyon, be formed in a 40 day flood? Why do rock strata clearly show that the Earth has been around for hundreds of millions of years?
 
Having tried, and failed, to master Danielscience, I'm going to see if I can successfully use anol (see one of my earlier posts).

Here's a first draft of a high level use of anol:

The 'laws of physics' INDISPUTABLY have a causal connection with so-called civilizations dominated by white men (Newton, the Renaissance; Heisenberg, pre-war Germany; that sort of thing. No laws of physics from any Stone Age tribe, nor the Incas; that sort of thing).

Therefore it is civilizations dominated by white men which create the laws of physics, not pace annnnoid, intelligence. Go ahead, list books of physics which contain the first publications of any law of physics which are NOT causally derived from such!

Clearly, I need to study the actual words (and WORDS) anol uses; equally clearly I must understand the role of "....", how to correctly use verbs like "create", "generate", "produce", with the idiosyncratic meanings they have in anol. Also, I have to learn how to write so as to cause confusion in the minds of the ISF readers who bother to read the lengthy screeds anol demands.

I think, though, I'll draw the line at the anol use of put-downs, etc.

Should be fun.:D
 
Thanks for your patience.
You're welcome.
You also draw the Line @ Actual Science too.
The way you define it, sure.
How do they explain the billions of fossils without a World-Wide Flood?
OK, who is "they"? I've never said there wasn't a worldwide flood - why do you think one is necessary for fossils to form?
2. How do they explain Dino-Soft Tissue in 80-120 Million Year Old BONES (Not Fossils)?
According to you, as far as I can tell, the soft tissue is maybe 4,000 years old? If you allow for it to remain after thousands of years, why do you draw the line at millions?

Some background info here from the Smithsonian:
Dinosaur Shocker
Probing a 68-million-year-old T. rex, Mary Schweitzer stumbled upon astonishing signs of life that may radically change our view of the ancient beasts

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/dinosaur-shocker-115306469/#3cjSzUfQUpsRjIk1.99
She’s horrified that some Christians accuse her of hiding the true meaning of her data. “They treat you really bad,” she says. “They twist your words and they manipulate your data.”
This lady describes herself as a Christian though I don't know if she would pass muster with you.

3. How fast can fossils form?
I don't know.
4. How do they explain the formation of the Grand Canyon?
You are asking how fossils explain the formation of the Grand Canyon? I haven't said they do. You switch up your "theys," so I'm not really sure what you mean here.
5. How do they explain the 160 million years of missing strata in the GC?
The sources I'm reading say up to 1 billion years, and go into much more detail than I can here:

The Great Unconformity of the Grand Canyon and the Late Proterozoic-Cambrian Time Interval: Part I - Defining It
http://written-in-stone-seen-through-my-lens.blogspot.com/2012/01/great-unconformity-of-grand-canyon-part.html

ETA: Doesn't the phrase "160 million years of missing strata" imply that the strata under the gap are older than 160 million years?
 
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JeanTate said:
Hmmm

Perhaps I have misunderstood; let me rephrase, leaving out all but the essential genes words (and adding some bold): "It is physically impossible for any X to form from Y, outside a cell; the definition of X includes "inside a cell"".

Is that about right?
Yeah, pretty much.
Thanks.

So we are left with just two logical conclusions: that willful deceit is a core element of Danielscience; or that for all the blather about Fallacy this, and Fallacy that, Danielscience, is at its core, nothing but a set of logical inconsistencies.

Here, then, is a more accurate statement of A:

A. "Functional" DNA/RNA/Proteins NEVER spontaneously form "naturally", outside already existing cells, from Sugars, Bases, Phosphates, and Aminos, respectively.
It's Physically and Chemically Logically IMPOSSIBLE.

It seems that what several ISF members have written is right, Danielscience is not about science, or religion, it's about politics (and money).
 

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