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Continuation Part 20: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Do you have any evidence that Amanda Knox paid Peter Gill and Forensic Science International to publish information that is known to be incorrect and/or misleading? Do you even KNOW what you believe is wrong in the paper? Or do you only "know" it has to be wrong because it supports the innocence of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito? What is specifically wrong in the paper, Vixen?

Does the international forensic science community know that they have been infiltrated by the Amanda Knox PR campaign, and the entire field of forensics as has been practiced for the past 30 years is in danger of collapsing around them? Forensic Science International has been corrupted, nothing can be trusted anymore. All because of the pagan witch sorceress Amanda Knox and her manga vampire slayer boyfriend. Have you contacted the proper authorities and let them know Amanda Knox is subverting all of science? (What did they say lol?)

Or... maybe it is possible that since you are a layman at science, none of this is true, maybe the top forensic geneticist in the world publishing in the top forensic science journal in the world is right, and the DNA evidence used against Amanda and Raffaele was analyzed and interpreted incorrectly in this case, just like Peter Gill and every other expert in the world has said. Have you considered that possibility? You know, that an admitted layman (you) in forensic science is just... uh... wrong?

There is plenty of evidence that Amanda Knox Raff and his defence team paid Peter Gill and Forensic Science International to publish information that is known to be incorrect and/or misleading. How do we know this? Prof. Gill - unlike Dr. Stefanoni - did not at any stage examine or analyse the evidence. He did not witness the murder scene. He did not see or collect any of the samples.

Gill got ALL of hs information from the fraudulent and "intellectually dishonest" (~Chieffi) Conti & Vecchiotti report for Hellmann, whose report was ignominously struck out. Raff's attorney Maori is facing charges of wining and dining Conti & Vecchiotti before and during the trial, a big NO-NO for any barrister.
 
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From M&B - In the face of a
missing evidence , insufficient or contradictory, the court must confine itself to take
act and give a judgment of acquittal , pursuant to art , 530 , paragraph 2 , cod .
proc . pen . , even if animated by genuine moral conviction of guilt
accused.


Whoa - "even if animated by genuine moral conviction of guilt" so even if the court is pretty sure the defendant is guilty when the evidence is "missing , insufficient or contradictory" the court must find not guilty (acquittal) verdict under 530 para 2. Note not para 1.

I want to know why so many of you ignore the words "even if". BM is clearly saying that ANY judge or jury may not use " a moral conviction of guilt in deciding a criminal court case.. They are not saying that they in fact have that moral conviction.

Why is this so hard to comprehend?
 
There is plenty of evidence that Amanda Knox Raff and his defence team paid Peter Gill and Forensic Science International to publish information that is known to be incorrect and/or misleading. How do we know this? Prof. Gill - unlike Dr. Stefanoni - did not at any stage examine or analyse the evidence. He did not witness the murder scene. He did not see or collect any of the samples.

Vixen, you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding about how science works. When someone does an experiment, they log and record it. That way the procedures and results can be examined by someone else and replicated if desired. This is literally how ALL experimental science is done. If the person performing the experiment or original analysis screwed up, it is there for everyone to see.

Just because everyone else (besides Stefanoni) did not DIRECTLY do the original experiment, does not mean that ONLY Stefanoni is able to give an accurate opinion on the evidence. This position of yours is honestly antithetical to all of science and reason.

Are you honestly saying that anytime someone disagrees with the original person who directly performed an experiment, then this is evidence the person must have been "paid off"? Because I have news for you, this happens all the time when someone screws up scientific research.

The fact that people disagree with Stefanoni (and you) about the DNA evidence is not by itself evidence they were paid off by Raffaele or anyone else. It is mind boggling you need this spelled out for you.

Gill got ALL of hs information from the fraudulent and "intellectually dishonest" (~Chieffi) Conti & Vecchiotti report for Hellmann, whose report was ignominously struck out. Raff's attorney Maori is facing charges of wining and dining Conti & Vecchiotti before and during the trial, a big NO-NO for any barrister.

NO VIXEN. All of the DNA work is in public domain. Gill received all of his information the EXACT SAME WAY everyone else has gotten it. There is something seriously wrong with you.
 
Imagine believing Raff paid an English scientist to make comments outside of Italy in English after the trial was already over. What a brilliant use of money. Let's see $100,000 bribe divided by 20 obsessive pip/pgp still following this case... Raff spent $5,000 a head to convince us :D

Man he should have just mailed us the checks directly.
 
It's common sense. Where you have a great deal of blood, then the resulting footprints, rich quantities of DNA and luminol glows are almost certainly correlated.

For example, in the Justin Back case, whose parents reported him missing, but before anyone knew he had been killed by his two friends, a detective noticed a spot of blood on the carpet of the living room. He had his men pull the carpet up, and sure enough, underneath was a huge pool of congealed blood. He then got the luminol squad in, and the kitchen, where Mosely and Myers garrotted, stabbed and shot Back, lit up like a Christmas tree.
Was it blood that made it glow? We'll never know. But common sense tells you it was, likewise in the Kercher murder. What else did the kids dip their feet in?

Did the follow-up presumptive test to the luminol in this case test negative?

You then go on to say "was it blood that made it glow? We'll never know." So you're saying in this case, they never followed up the luminol hit with another presumptive or confirmatory test?
 
Imagine believing Raff paid an English scientist to make comments outside of Italy in English after the trial was already over. What a brilliant use of money. Let's see $100,000 bribe divided by 20 obsessive pip/pgp still following this case... Raff spent $5,000 a head to convince us :D

Man he should have just mailed us the checks directly.

The world must be a very disorienting place living in this kind of bubble.

"This world renowned expert disagrees with my layperson opinion, he must have been paid off by someone in a different country after the trial is over for literally no discernible reason. GLAD WE GOT THIS FIGURED OUT GUYS. GOSH PMF IS SUCH A GOOD RESOURCE."

I'm convinced the guilters have monthly contests for who can come up with the most outlandish story on why no expert on the planet seems to agree with them.
 
There is plenty of evidence that Amanda Knox Raff and his defence team paid Peter Gill and Forensic Science International to publish information that is known to be incorrect and/or misleading. How do we know this? Prof. Gill - unlike Dr. Stefanoni - did not at any stage examine or analyse the evidence. He did not witness the murder scene. He did not see or collect any of the samples.

Gill got ALL of hs information from the fraudulent and "intellectually dishonest" (~Chieffi) Conti & Vecchiotti report for Hellmann, whose report was ignominously struck out. Raff's attorney Maori is facing charges of wining and dining Conti & Vecchiotti before and during the trial, a big NO-NO for any barrister.

Vixen, you seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding about how science works. When someone does an experiment, they log and record it. That way the procedures and results can be examined by someone else and replicated if desired. This is literally how ALL experimental science is done. If the person performing the experiment or original analysis screwed up, it is there for everyone to see.

Just because everyone else (besides Stefanoni) did not DIRECTLY do the original experiment, does not mean that ONLY Stefanoni is able to give an accurate opinion on the evidence. This position of yours is honestly antithetical to all of science and reason.

Are you honestly saying that anytime someone disagrees with the original person who directly performed an experiment, then this is evidence the person must have been "paid off"? Because I have news for you, this happens all the time when someone screws up scientific research.

The fact that people disagree with Stefanoni (and you) about the DNA evidence is not by itself evidence they were paid off by Raffaele or anyone else. It is mind boggling you need this spelled out for you.



NO VIXEN. All of the DNA work is in public domain. Gill received all of his information the EXACT SAME WAY everyone else has gotten it. There is something seriously wrong with you.

Vixen's post (copied above) is a hilarious non-sequitur.

Apparently anyone who publishes a scientific paper analyzing the work of others is "paid off", based on Vixen's post.

Vixen's post totally ignores that one of the functions of scientists is to review fairly and intelligently criticize the work of others, and if possible, to reproduce the results claimed by others. That is how errors and even frauds are detected in science.

Vixen's posts show a contrary approach: to review with bias and present uninformed, illogical and unreasonable criticism.
 
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I want to know why so many of you ignore the words "even if". BM is clearly saying that ANY judge or jury may not use " a moral conviction of guilt in deciding a criminal court case.. They are not saying that they in fact have that moral conviction.

Why is this so hard to comprehend?


What they are saying is that Massei and Nencini believed in guilt but they should have dismissed the case as para 2 not guilty because the evidence wasn't sufficient, was lacking and/or contradictory. Besides the choice of paras the wording of the MR makes clear as Cheli said it wasn't a clear statement of innocence.

M&B clearly stated two thing: The kids should not have been found guilty BARD and the ILE messed up the investigation.
 
Mike has a very good point about cases that could fall under CPP Art. 530.1.

In my opinion, to deliver a verdict in a reasonable way, the judge must evaluate the prosecution case and its evidence. If the evidence does not meet the standard of proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, then the judge must acquit. It doesn't matter whether the amount of reasonable doubt is small or large or overwhelming; there must be an evaluation of the evidence. This suggests to me that CPP Art. 530.2 is universally applicable, while 530.1 is redundant.

My suspicion or hypothesis is that CPP Art. 530.1 is a survivor from the inquisitorial system of justice that Italy had prior to the reforms of 1988 - 2006. The BARD concept was only introduced into Italian law starting in 1988, and was only "completely" part of law with the Italian parliament enacting a law that resulted in CPP Art. 533.1.

So CPP 530.1 is, in my hypothesis, the standard for acquittal that Italian law used during the inquisitorial system period, when a defendant was obligated to prove innocence and was otherwise considered guilty.

Without identifying the paragraph numbers specifically, in Gialuz's essay on Italian law in Gialuz, Gialuz states that in 1988, the CPP was modified for the purpose of advancing to the adversarial system of law. The exact wording of Gialuz is as follows:



My interpretation of Gialuz's statement quoted above: The new wording introduced in 1988 clearly went into CPP Article 530.2. Prior to that reform, apparently the defendant had to prove innocence by some profound measure, in accordance with the absolute wording of CPP Article 530.1, or the judge apparently could evaluate the prosecution evidence and find it insufficient. Otherwise, apparently the only verdict available was that the defendant was guilty (although perhaps some other acquittal by Article 530.1, such as the crime did not occur, might have been available).

My hypothesis is the persons in Italy of a certain age may recall that defendants prior to the complete change to the adversarial system had to prove their innocence, and therefore find verdicts of acquittal based on failure to prove guilt BARD unsatisfactory. There is certainly a large section in the Hellmann court MR devoted to a justification of the use of BARD and includes considerable legal and judicial history (CSC court decisions) relating to its adoption in Italy. The Massei court MR (annulled by the Hellmann court verdict) used probabilistic arguments or supremacy of prosecution arguments norms to reach it a verdict of guilty, an apparent survival of the inquisitorial system in the Knox - Sollecito case.

A discussion about Italy's turn to an adversarial justice system from an inquisitional one may be found in posts from about October, 2014 on Continuation 10. Looking at the methods used in the inquisitional system helps to understand the issues surrounding CPP Articles 530 (acquittals) and the relatively new Article 533 (convictions based upon BARD) . Here is one of my posts (#4211) from Continuation 10:

From: The frustrated turn to adversarial procedure n Italy (G. Illuminati*) - referring to Italian trials under the inquisitional system:

{The Code [of Criminal Procedure] of 1930, drafted in the fascist era, also suffered a strong influence from the Napoleonic Code: criminal proceedings were divided into two phases, the investigative stage ... and the trial stage.... On recommendation from the public prosecutor, the investigating judge would direct the investigation in order to "ascertain the truth.".... All the evidence obtained in the course of the investigation would be recorded in the trial dossier, upon which the trial judge based his decision.

Originally the defense was forbidden to participate in the investigative phase. Later reforms and a series of decisions of the Constitutional Court in the 1970s allowed the defense opportunities to challenge or contradict information that was gathered....}**

It is easy to understand why the preliminary investigative phase served as the central process of criminal proceedings, as this was when evidence was actually collected. In most cases the trial phase did not add to what had been done in the investigative phase or disavow the conclusion reached during the investigation. The trial simply functioned as a control on what had been previously decided. The trial often turned out to be merely an occasion for the “official reading” of the record formed during the investigative stage.
It is true that witnesses could be called to trial to testify and their testimony could differ from that given to the investigating judge. But the decision still could be based solely on the investigative dossier, disregarding the evidence presented during the trial phase. Moreover, in most cases the witness was asked to simply “confirm” the statements given to the investigating judge. The ability of the trial judge to rely exclusively upon the investigative dossier is determinant in establishing the inquisitorial profile of this system. ____
The Italian courts sometimes (Nencini, Massei) revert to the inquisitorial system de facto, IMO

* Giulio Illuminati, The frustrated turn to adversarial procedure in Italy (Italian Criminal Procedure Code of 1988), 4 Wash. U. Glob. Stud. L. Rev. 567 (2005); available online through:

digitalcommons.law.wustl.edu/globalstudies

** I have added text - enclosed in { } - from Illuminati's article to the excerpt for clarity.

ETA: For Italians who remember the inquisitorial system with fondness, or for any with an authoritarian inclination, the failure of the adversarial system to simply follow the dictates of the prosecution is an unwelcome aberration. This accounts for the emphasis by some on a nearly impossible acquittal by "proof of innocence" allegedly provided by citation of CPP Article 530.1 by a judge, rather than the acquittal by "failure to establish proof of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt" provided by CPP Articles 533.1 and 530.2. (My opinion.)
 
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It emphatically IS - more or less - equivalent to the Scottish law "Not Proven". I dare say there'll be procedural differences. My source, quote below, is:

Anna Cento Bull is Professor of Italian History and Politics at the University of Bath. Her publications include Social Identities and Political Cultures in Italy (Oxford: Berghahn, 2000); The Lega Nord and The Northern Question in Italian Politics (London: Palgrave, 2001) (with M. Gilbert) and Speaking Out and Silencing: Culture, Society and Politics in Italy in the 1970s. (Legenda: Oxford, 2005) (edited jointly with A. Giorgio).

Thank you. I have long maintained this have been shouted down but of course without anything to back it but bluster.

LOL The PIP are now arguing the kids should/could never have been found innocent under 530.1. LMAO. :o;)

It is humorous. Back a year ago the same characters were adamant it was a para 1 and then when it turned out to be a 2 they began a campaign to minimize the choice. Some of my favorites were that it really wasn't a law but an oversight in the conversion to an adversarial system. Then there was para 1 can only be when the crime didn't occur.

Does one of your books indicate if all acquittals, by custom, contain the words "did not commit the crime" even when only lacking of a BARD conviction?
 
Grinder said:
Bill how does one prove there was no mixed blood?

There was no mixed blood unless the prosecution proves otherwise. It's the way law works.

Did the prosecution prove mixed blood?
But the point is that the defence did not prove it was not mixed blood.

The defence also did not prove a route of contamination.



Pay no attention to that picture.
 
Thank you. I have long maintained this have been shouted down but of course without anything to back it but bluster.



It is humorous. Back a year ago the same characters were adamant it was a para 1 and then when it turned out to be a 2 they began a campaign to minimize the choice. Some of my favorites were that it really wasn't a law but an oversight in the conversion to an adversarial system. Then there was para 1 can only be when the crime didn't occur.

Does one of your books indicate if all acquittals, by custom, contain the words "did not commit the crime" even when only lacking of a BARD conviction?

This post would be readable if it didn't read like the rubrics attached to a screenplay. Of course, all who differ with you are shouters, and instead of making arguments, they "campaign".

Why didn't you tell us this long ago?
 
A 530.1 should never get to court. If innocence can be proved why is the prosecution pursuing the matter.

Italy :confused:

We just had a case that went to court and the defendant was acquitted and found the equivalent of innocent. Basically he had struck a woman and stabbed a "hero". In the courtroom neutral witnesses came forward stating the woman had attacked the defendant, he walked away when attacked by the "hero" who slammed his head into a car until the guy stabbed him. It was a self defense (para 3) acquittal but was enough for him to be refunded his legal expenses.

I know this isn't a perfect example as it was a para3 in Italy but I can imagine a witness giving someone an alibi that the prosecution refused to believe but the court did and would declare a para 1 acquittal.

The fact that a para 1 would be difficult to get doesn't mean there isn't a difference. Go back and read the comments a year ago of the most adamant and expansive opponent to the para 2 meaning something.
 
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But the point is that the defence did not prove it was not mixed blood.

The defence also did not prove a route of contamination.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_5397154cd64bdf2e8d.jpg[/qimg]

Pay no attention to that picture.

Oh dear. Bill you stated there was no mixed blood. How do you know? Saying the prosecution didn't prove there was mixed blood isn't the same as saying there was no mixed blood. I can see why the para 1 and 2 is so difficult for you. Are you part Italian? :rolleyes:
 
There was no mixed blood unless the prosecution proves otherwise. It's the way law works.

Did the prosecution prove mixed blood?

No. Bill stated without qualification there was no mixed blood. Not that there was no mixed blood established by the prosecution.
 
Oh dear. Bill you stated there was no mixed blood. How do you know? Saying the prosecution didn't prove there was mixed blood isn't the same as saying there was no mixed blood. I can see why the para 1 and 2 is so difficult for you. Are you part Italian? :rolleyes:

Sigh. You are cranky this morning!

I perhaps need to repost Massei's conclusions on this. Knox's biological material. Victim's blood.
 
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