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Turkish support for ISIS

Henri McPhee said:
Isis and Al Qaeda just don't want a peaceful solution.
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They want peace after their victory. First over everybody else, then over each other.

No serious player expects these movements to be more than a ripple on a very big pond in ten years time. I speak as one who remembers the threat that of Palestinian (remember them? Or heard about them?) terrorism posed to civilization.

Turkey wants a foothold in Syria and Iraq, for its support for the so-called Islamic state, and war on the Kurds.
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This is where Erdogan's Turkey loses coherence. Turkey's Kurdish problem is a nationalist problem, but Erdogan projects himself as a religious champion. A Sunni Islamic champion. In direct opposition to that competing Sunni champion, Saudi Arabia. Arab versus Turk but all about Islam.

Erdogan's biggest problem is Ataturk's legacy. Turkish nationalism is closely identified with the Turkish military, and with secularism. Until relatively recently it was their mission to protect the nation from the likes of Erdogan. It was also their mission to make the Kurds good Turks, taking Turkish names, and adopting a national Turkish identity. The inevitable grinding conflict that resulted is what wore down the military's prestige and morale enough to allow an Erdogan to emerge.

Egypt demonstrates how tenuous such a success can be, and I doubt I've spotted something Erdogan hasn't.

Israel wants bloody slaughter.
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Have you noticed how marginalised Israel is these days? Hysterics about Arab stabbers really doesn't make the cut in today's Middle East. One has to really care about Israel or the Palestinians these days, and let's face it, who does?


Bad characters are coming into Europe along with refugee families.
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I'll back our own bad characters against them any day.

The CIA has been gathering intelligence and trying to topple Assad, but they are also deciding policy, which is always dangerous.
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You type a lot of stuff that isn't even wrong.

The real world is way more fascinating than the funniest cartoon.
 
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The prime minister of Turkey has said publicly on TV that he and Turkey supports any opposition to Assad in Syria. That would presumably include Isis. A Saudi Arabian pundit on TV has said that Syria is within the Turkish sphere of influence. Isis has been reported as saying that they want to make Jerusalem the capital of their so-called Islamic state.
 
Henri McPhee said:
The prime minister of Turkey has said publicly on TV that he and Turkey supports any opposition to Assad in Syria. That would presumably include Isis. A Saudi Arabian pundit on TV has said that Syria is within the Turkish sphere of influence. Isis has been reported as saying that they want to make Jerusalem the capital of their so-called Islamic state.
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Edrogan would be happy if ISIS destroyed Assad and took over most of Syria, not because he's a great fan of ISIS, but because no one would substantially oppose the efforts to destroy ISIS alone. The statement is equally true if you replace Assad with FSA and Edrogan with Assad.

Most if not all criticism against Edrogan should be directed against Assad as well. Both will need to recieve the same treatment eventually.

McHrozni
 
Erdogan and his wily prime minister are being given many billions by the European Political Union. There is no guarantee it is going to the refugees. The refugees don't have a right to work in Turkey.

There is something funny going on in Lebanon at the moment. The public are being kept in the dark as usual by the Murdoch media so that they don't understand what is going on. Saudi Arabia has withdrawn its finance for the Lebanon army and ordered its citizens to return to Saudi Arabia. I don't know if Lebanon has solved its garbage problem yet. I suspect it's a plan for aggression against Syria and Lebanon with an alliance between Saudi Arabia and Turkey so that eventually Jordan will be no more and Israel will be dumped into the sea, and Isis will be in control in Damascus and Jerusalem.

All with the support of the CIA and European Political Union. There is some background information to this at:

http://www.moonofalabama.org/2016/0...from-lebanon-with-saudi-and-turkish-help.html
 
There is an argument for saying that Turkey is occupying Kurdistan rather than the other way round, as Erdogan insists. I think the Kurds are being very reasonable about it all, but still Turkey supports Isis in their war on the Kurds.

There is a bit of background to this matter in a book called Unofficial History published in 1959 by Field Marshal Sir William Slim:

"Kurdistan is something of a Middle East Poland. It is inhabited by a warlike race, very conscious of its nationality and of its distinctiveness from the often hostile peoples who surround it. Like Poland too, it has spent much of its history forcibly partitioned among these larger neighbours and, under their yoke, the fierce Kurdish desire for independence has simmered and bubbled. At this time Iraq, Turkey, and Persia each had their share."
 
Henri McPhee said:
There is a bit of background to this matter in a book called Unofficial History published in 1959 by Field Marshal Sir William Slim:



"Kurdistan is something of a Middle East Poland. It is inhabited by a warlike race, very conscious of its nationality and of its distinctiveness from the often hostile peoples who surround it. Like Poland too, it has spent much of its history forcibly partitioned among these larger neighbours and, under their yoke, the fierce Kurdish desire for independence has simmered and bubbled. At this time Iraq, Turkey, and Persia each had their share."
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Except that, unlike Poland, what we now call Kurdistan has never been a unified independent state.
 
Border Reiver said:
Except that, unlike Poland, what we now call Kurdistan has never been a unified independent state.
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Erdogan has said publicly that America should support Turkey or the Kurds. I think America should support the Kurds. At least the Kurds have fighting capability against Isis, unlike Iraq or Turkey.

I still think that Turkey and Israel and Saudi Arabia and Qatar and the CIA and Hillary Clinton want a war with Iran, and that thery are not really interested in Isis, which I consider to be the greater danger. That's why those countries only seem interested in trying to topple Assad in Syria, who is pro-Iran. Erdogan is an admirer of Hitler. I think Erdogan supports Isis and the new Turks in their ambition to have Jerusalem as the capital of their so-called Islamic State.

My own opinion is that Isis want to replace Erdogan with Turkish Intelligence in order for Isis to take control of Turkey. That's why it is very convenient for Isis if the Turks blame the Kurds every time a bomb goes off in Ankara, when it fact it was done by Isis. That helps Isis in their war with the Kurds.

The latest madcap CIA strategy seems to be for Assad to maintain control of the west part of Syria while Isis maintains its grip on Eastern Syria and Western Iraq. I can't quite see that lasting very long. We should not assume that statesmen are sensible. Obama needs to get a thorough grasp of the subject.
 
Henri McPhee said:
Erdogan has said publicly that America should support Turkey or the Kurds. I think America should support the Kurds. At least the Kurds have fighting capability against Isis, unlike Iraq or Turkey.
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OK, that's one thought. Pros and cons can be argued, and the longer term US position on NATO and Turkey weighed.
I still think that Turkey and Israel and Saudi Arabia and Qatar and the CIA and Hillary Clinton want a war with Iran, and that they are not really interested in Isis, which I consider to be the greater danger.
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That, on the other hand, barely resembles a coherent thought, but it does represent a bit of raving, though ISIS as a problem remains valid.
That's why those countries only seem interested in trying to topple Assad in Syria, who is pro-Iran. Erdogan is an admirer of Hitler. I think Erdogan supports Isis and the new Turks in their ambition to have Jerusalem as the capital of their so-called Islamic State.
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Hitler? OK, Erdogan can be a heel for supporting ISIS without being accused of anything to do with Hitler. He has an ample record of his own to evaluate.
My own opinion is that Isis want to replace Erdogan with Turkish Intelligence in order for Isis to take control of Turkey.
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Right, because conspiracy theories are so cool to ponder. Erdogan has his share of enemies in Turkey, to be sure.
That's why it is very convenient for Isis if the Turks blame the Kurds every time a bomb goes off in Ankara, when it fact it was done by Isis. That helps Isis in their war with the Kurds.
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Kurds and Turks have had rough relationships for longer than I've been alive. Whether or not a Kurdish group is setting off bombs, or ISIS and trying to get the finger pointed at the Kurds ... I suppose that's possible, but I' skeptical.
The latest madcap CIA strategy seems to be for Assad to maintain control of the west part of Syria while Isis maintains its grip on Eastern Syria and Western Iraq.
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I think you mistake Mr Putin's aims with the CIA-conspiracy-theory-of-all-that-is-evil.

Try Occam's Razor.
 
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The Turks admit that the latest bombing in Turkey was carried out by an Isis suicide bomber. Turkey can't blame the Kurds for everything. Erdogan supports Isis, like the CIA does, because Isis is opposed to Assad in Syria, and so he uses gangs of Isis fascist beasts to kill Kurdish civilians in the south-east of Turkey. I don't think Erdogan minds that Isis intends to make Jerusalem the capital of their so-called Islamic state, but I don't think he fully appreciates that Isis intends to take control of Turkey as well.

I think it's the utmost folly after the way Isis has shot and beheaded British and American citizens in the past. Britain and America and the EU should stop weakly following the Israeli and Saudi Arabian and Turkish line of having a war with Iran, using Isis as a battering ram, and instead stand firm. Turkish Intelligence should become more intelligent.
 
Darth Rotor said:
Kurds and Turks have had rough relationships for longer than I've been alive.
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This can be charged to that old evil - creating a national identity after the creation of a nation. According to the theory of the time, a Turkish national identity could not encompass a Kurdish identity. Everybody had to take a Turkish name, the language was banned from the education system, and of course everybody had to conform to the newly prescribed Turkish national dress code. And the process continues under Erdogan. (Mind you, I think he's got his eye on the big prize - a revived Turkish Caliphate. Just as Putin has his eye on his big prize - Constantinople.)
 
CapelDodger said:
This can be charged to that old evil - creating a national identity after the creation of a nation. According to the theory of the time, a Turkish national identity could not encompass a Kurdish identity. Everybody had to take a Turkish name, the language was banned from the education system, and of course everybody had to conform to the newly prescribed Turkish national dress code. And the process continues under Erdogan. (Mind you, I think he's got his eye on the big prize - a revived Turkish Caliphate. Just as Putin has his eye on his big prize - Constantinople.)
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The latter is a pretty weird belief. Do you also believe that Dugin is Ras Putin (just curious)?
 
It seems obvious to me that Turkey, along with all the other serious players, expects ISIS to sputter out over the next five to ten years as order is restored - which it will be. It's already stalled, which is something an apocalyptic movement cannot long survive. Suicide attacks, however spectacular, simpy will not cut it. The Caliphate concept, as presented by ISIS theologians, has territory at its heart.

What people are thinking about is the post-ISIS arrangement between Turkey, Iran, Iraq and Russia. At the moment a lot of ground is there for facts to be made on.
 
Childlike Empress said:
The latter is a pretty weird belief. Do you also believe that Dugin is Ras Putin (just curious)?
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Do you really think Putin has never kicked back with a brandy and cigar and thought about this? Putin has a sense of history and Constantinople has been the big prize for Russia since ... well, forever. He's written himself into history with the Crimea, true, but a man can dream.

There's no rule which says the Russo-Turkish thing is over.
 
CapelDodger said:
Do you really think Putin has never kicked back with a brandy and cigar and thought about this? Putin has a sense of history and Constantinople has been the big prize for Russia since ... well, forever. He's written himself into history with the Crimea, true, but a man can dream.
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Yes, I really think that and I also think that there might be a bit of very ... British .. nostalgia and projection involved in your train of thought here. ;)

CapelDodger said:
There's no rule which says the Russo-Turkish thing is over.
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Indeed. Especially the Turkish thing is escalating more and more, and lately there have been some ugly synergy effects between the Sultan and Porky I, crowned by Nuland.

What's coming through the rabid news blockade from the Kurdish regions in Turkey is also pretty ugly.
 
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