Creationist argument about DNA and information

I don't understand your question. You want me to explain "information" using Natural Law?

Yea. You said...

"The reason is because we have no way to identify things that are not amenable to a natural law explanation."

So, Go ahead....?

You are asking me to do something I said couldn't be done - identify things that are not amenable to a natural law explanation.

Marplots
What does it mean if I can (to your satisfaction)?

You can't; Information is neither matter or energy.

Marplots
What does it mean if I cannot?

Your entire post is FALSE!

Not at all. All it demonstrates is that I cannot meet your request. This may be because I am not well versed in the subject or some other reason. It only says something about me, personally, not the claim.

You say that information is neither matter nor energy and I think you mean to say that this excludes it from investigation/explanation by way of natural law. Is that your claim?

If it is, it's not enough. You would also have to claim that "information" can never be subject to natural laws - something I don't think can be done, although I'd be interested in seeing an attempt at it. If you are going to rely on "not matter nor energy," that only shifts the burden to having to explain why natural laws cannot, now nor in the future, ever address things that are not matter or energy. I see no reason why this must be so.

I suspect we have a different idea of what a natural law might be, and that is why I laid out my meaning in the earlier post as "a regular pattern in the world around us which we rely on to make predictions." You are, of course, free to suggest some other meaning for the concept.
 
You are asking me to do something I said couldn't be done - identify things that are not amenable to a natural law explanation.


What on Earth sir?? So you're saying INFORMATION doesn't exist...you can't Identify it ??

You're EXPOSED.

regards
 
What on Earth sir?? So you're saying INFORMATION doesn't exist...you can't Identify it ??

You're EXPOSED.

regards

I don't mind. I have lots to learn about the world.

I admit that "information" is a tricky thing to identify. I mean, I can't point to it or identify it in a lineup. So maybe it's just a concept I have, a way of ordering the world, like mathematics or words. But it sounds like you are suggesting information is a "thing," out there in the world. Something a zebra might stumble over.

But you also said it wasn't composed of matter or energy, so it can't be the usual sort of "thing" and won't impair the travel of zebras.

Maybe you could describe it better so I can grasp what you mean by information?
 
Common Sense.

Can you list a 3rd/4th/5th ect Category....?

Do you need Citation? ....

George Wald Nobel Prize Medicine and Physiology...

“The reasonable view was to believe in spontaneous generation; the only alternative, to believe in a single, primary act of supernatural creation. THERE IS NO THIRD POSITION. …Most modern biologists, having reviewed with satisfaction the downfall of the spontaneous generation hypothesis, yet unwilling to accept the alternative belief in special creation, are left with nothing.” {emphasis mine}
Wald, G., “The Origin of Life,” Scientific American, 191 [2]: 45-46, 1954.
http://www.academia.edu/2739607/Scientific_GOD_Journal pg. 175


regards

Nope. Common sense is not a way to know.

Nor is Argument from Ignorance

Nor is Argument from Authority

So I ask you again. How do you know the choices are Natural or God?
 
I admit that "information" is a tricky thing to identify. I mean, I can't point to it or identify it in a lineup.


Yea, especially when you just used it to write this sentence and every sentence you ever wrote or read or will ever write or read.


Maybe you could describe it better so I can grasp what you mean by information?


Sure. Information--- informs and/or instructs, it's the basis of all communication; it's neither matter or energy; it's Semiotic. It's the sine qua non of LIFE: SEE " DNA ".
It is only ever ever ever sourced by Intelligent Agency, without Exception!!!

Good?


regards
 
The Date of the Citation has NOTHING to do with the veracity of the message. We're not trying to pin down the Exact Dosage for the Cancer Fighting benefits of B12 here.

The Laws of Thermodynamics were codified in the late 1800's, are they Old Hat?? Has the rest of the world 'moved on' ?? :rolleyes:

regards

Let's see. 1954. We'd not yet gone into orbit, we had no computers and no mobile phones (cell phones), Aids was in the future as was the medical controls for it, the human genome hadn't been cracked (in fact, Crick and Watson only announced their discovery of the structure of DNA to the world the previous year), and the world's first nuclear power station was opened. So yeah, Danielscience may be stuck in 1954, but there is rather a lot that has happened since, including the removal of any necessity for a creator myth as an explanation for the existence of the universe.
 
Nope. Common sense is not a way to know.


Are you speaking from personal experience?


Nor is Argument from Ignorance

Nor is Argument from Authority


So you're rebuttal is "Na'ahh"?? How Scientific of you.


Can you please show how the conclusion of the 2 choices are either of your Baseless 'bald' Assertion Fallacies for us...?

regards
 
Except when it isn't.

More Danielscience: pseudo-science by dictat.


SHOW....? Here's the Null Hypothesis (AGAIN)...

Nature/Natural Law causation CAN NOT create Algorithmic Cybernetic CODING and de-CODING Schemes.

If you can't FALSIFY the NULL (which Nobody on the Planet can/will EVER do), then Ya hear that Sound??? ...that's you and your World-View circling the Drain at Light Speed !!


regards
 
Are you speaking from personal experience?





So you're rebuttal is "Na'ahh"?? How Scientific of you.


Can you please show how the conclusion of the 2 choices are either of your Baseless 'bald' Assertion Fallacies for us...?

regards

Sorry do you have an English translation of the above?

I asked how you know those are the only 2 choices. You didn't provide an answer. You merely stated that you couldn't think of a 3rd one (argument from ignorance) and then showed someone else's opinion (argument from authority). I even let you off with the fact that the authority you quoted didn't even say the same thing as you said.

So far you have an argument with 2 unsupported premises. I thought I would start by asking you to support 1.
 
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SHOW....? Here's the Null Hypothesis (AGAIN)...

Nature/Natural Law causation CAN NOT create Algorithmic Cybernetic CODING and de-CODING Schemes...........

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.........Once you reckon that there MUST BE "A CREATOR", then it's time to find out WHO that is.
I can tell you that it is Jesus Christ...........

You can tell us all you like, but it's not only bollocks, it's unprovable bollocks. If your chap even existed, he was an Arab from the bronze age, and very much a human. Nothing special. Unless, of course, you have any evidence to the contrary. Null hypothesis and all that.
 
SHOW....? Here's the Null Hypothesis (AGAIN)...

Nature/Natural Law causation CAN NOT create Algorithmic Cybernetic CODING and de-CODING Schemes.

If you can't FALSIFY the NULL (which Nobody on the Planet can/will EVER do), then Ya hear that Sound??? ...that's you and your World-View circling the Drain at Light Speed !!


regards

Here is a a positive hypothesis.

[Nature/Natural Law] can create Algorithmic Cybernetic CODING and de-CODING schemes.

If you can't falsify this positive hypothesis, then you can't claim to know that it is not true.


My second hypothesis is that nature/natural law did so at least once in this universe. Life as seen currently on earth is defined by algorithmic cybernetic coding and decoding schemes.

Now, my second hypothesis is sufficient but not necessary to prove the first. If you manage to falsify the second hypothesis, then the the first may still be valid. However, if I validate the second hypothesis than the first (null) is validated.

Life could have been created by a superior intellect on Europa while life emerged on earth by unguided processes. Or vica versa. Life could have been generated by unguided processes on earth but was created by a a Master designer on earth. Or quite possibly life could have been generated by unguided processes on both planets.

You have not provided evidence that cybernetic codes could not have been created by unguided processes given a very long time. In fact, you have not provided a formal definition of cybernetic processes.

The shape of any fractal structure can be interpreted as a code. I claim that the formation of a snowflake is a 'cybernetic process'. Microscopic order (the flake is a six fold symmetric fractal) is created from a microscopic state (the water vapor is randomly distributed triatomic molecules). You angles in the fractal shape are a code. No intelligent designer was directly involved in building the snow flake. If I am wrong, then please tell us how a cybernetic process or code is defined.

So your challenge has actually made it less likely that you will be proved completely right. The second hypothesis is what the OP was concerned with. However, you added a second hypothesis that needs proving. You have not proved, nor tried to falsify, the notion that a 'cybernetic code' has to be designed.

I don't think you even know what a cybernetic process is. Why should a string of DNA be any more cybernetic than another string of DNA?
 
I asked how you know those are the only 2 choices. You didn't provide an answer.


Are you BLIND?? I provided the answer the CITED a Reference from a Nobel Prize winner SUPPORTING IT.... On a subject that's tantamount to CITING a Reference that Rib-Eye's come from Cows!! for goodness sakes.


You merely stated that you couldn't think of a 3rd one (argument from ignorance)


What on Earth??

1. I never said I couldn't think of one !!! Please don't Lie to clumsily attempt to support your trainwreck Baseless Assertion (Fallacies). mmm K?

I SAID please provide a 3rd,4th,5th choice so as to SUPPORT your Na'aah argument.


and then showed someone else's opinion (argument from authority).


That's NOT an Argument from Authority, professor...

Appeal to Authority (Fallacy)--- This fallacy is committed when the person in question is not a legitimate authority on the subject.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html

Are you saying Dr. Wald a Nobel Prize Winner (Medicine and Physiology) is not a legitimate authority on the matter? :rolleyes:

How bout a bring in a 3rd grader to set you straight?


I even let you off with the fact that the authority you quoted didn't even say the same thing as you said.


Stop Pretending, before I really embarrass you.


regards
 
Are you BLIND?? I provided the answer the CITED a Reference from a Nobel Prize winner SUPPORTING IT.... On a subject that's tantamount to CITING a Reference that Rib-Eye's come from Cows!! for goodness sakes.

Erm. No you didn't. If you did perhaps you could provide it one more time without the superfluous nonsense. Was it the bit where you said 'Common Sense' as if that was meaningful?

What on Earth??

1. I never said I couldn't think of one !!! Please don't Lie to clumsily attempt to support your trainwreck Baseless Assertion (Fallacies). mmm K?

I SAID please provide a 3rd,4th,5th choice so as to SUPPORT your Na'aah argument.

My argument was that you had an unsupported premise. I don't need to do your work for you. Your premise YOU support it.

That's NOT an Argument from Authority, professor...

Appeal to Authority (Fallacy)--- This fallacy is committed when the person in question is not a legitimate authority on the subject.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html

Are you saying Dr. Wald a Nobel Prize Winner (Medicine and Physiology) is not a legitimate authority on the matter? :rolleyes:

How bout a bring in a 3rd grader to set you straight?

He's an authority on the creation of all things? Really? That's your evidence?

Stop Pretending, before I really embarrass you.

regards

Well it's easy enough. Simply quote the part of the text you provided where ID or God are mentioned. And then after you've done that you can reflect on the fact that if he does agree with you then it could simply be that he's wrong as well.
 
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Here is a a positive hypothesis.

[Nature/Natural Law] can create Algorithmic Cybernetic CODING and de-CODING schemes.

If you can't falsify this positive hypothesis, then you can't claim to know that it is not true.


Well this isn't a Null Hypothesis (lol) so it's not my job to falsify it, "YOU" have to VALIDATE IT....whereby Falsifying the Default Position: The NULL Hypothesis...

Nature/Natural Law CAN NOT create Algorithmic Cybernetic CODING and de-CODING schemes.



My second hypothesis is that nature/natural law did so at least once in this universe. Life as seen currently on earth is defined by algorithmic cybernetic coding and decoding schemes.


Lets see THE TEST...? Highlight The Independent and Dependent Variables for us...?


Life could have been created by a superior intellect on Europa while life emerged on earth by unguided processes. Or vica versa. Life could have been generated by unguided processes on earth but was created by a a Master designer on earth. Or quite possibly life could have been generated by unguided processes on both planets.


And Anna Nicole could have married for Love and had Pol Pot as her Florist.

life emerged on earth by unguided processes.


Really?? Well, SHOW...

1. Functional DNA/RNA/Proteins NEVER spontaneously form "naturally", outside already existing cells, from Sugars, Bases, Phosphates, and Aminos, respectively.
It's Physically and Chemically IMPOSSIBLE.
That's just the Hardware!

To refute, Please show a Functional 30 mer- RNA or Protein (most are 250 AA or larger) that formed spontaneously "Outside" a Cell/Living Organism, CITE SOURCE! The smallest "Functional" DNA (Genome) is a little over 100,000 Nucleotides... so that ain't happenin !

Conclusion from the Grand Poobah's of OOL Research...

"We conclude that the direct synthesis of the nucleosides or nucleotides from prebiotic precursors in reasonable yield and unaccompanied by larger amounts of related molecules could not be achieved by presently known chemical reactions."
Gerald F. Joyce, and Leslie E. Orgel, "Prospects for Understanding the Origin of the RNA World," p. 18 The RNA World, R.F. Gesteland and J.F. Atkins, eds. Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory Press, 1993.

Then the WOOLLY Mammoth in the Room...

2. How Did Stupid Atoms Write Their Own Software....? In other words, show how Ink/Paper/Glue Molecules can Author Technical Instruction Manuals/Blueprints...?


You have not provided evidence that cybernetic codes could not have been created by unguided processes given a very long time.


Well isn't it the Acme of foolishness to even attempt to provide evidence for the Absence of Something (Argument from Complete Ignorance)?? Your appeal here is Non-Sequitur, on Steroids.


In fact, you have not provided a formal definition of cybernetic processes.


It's "INFORMATION"... informs or instructs; the basis of all communication. It's neither Matter or Energy; it's Semiotic.


The shape of any fractal structure can be interpreted as a code.


Fractals aren't CODES. Codes communicate MESSAGES/instructions . Do fractals send you messages?? Please post the medium and the messages they send you...?

CODES:
"We repeatedly consider the following scenario: a sender (say, A) wants to communicate or transmit some information to a receiver (say, B). The information to be transmitted is an element from some set X . It will be communicated by sending a binary string, called the message. When B receives the message, he can decode it again and (hopefully) reconstruct the element of X that was sent. To achieve this, A and B NEED TO AGREE on a code or description method BEFORE communicating." {emphasis mine]
Grunwald, P., Vitanyi, P ; Algorithmic Information Theory; p. 10, 14 Sept 2005
http://www.illc.uva.nl/HPI/Algorithmic_Complexity.pdf

I claim that the formation of a snowflake is a 'cybernetic process'.


Snowflakes send you messages/instructions also?


Microscopic order (the flake is a six fold symmetric fractal) is created from a microscopic state (the water vapor is randomly distributed triatomic molecules).


We're not discussing mere "order" here, we're talking about Functional Sequence/Specified Complexity...

There are 3 Types of Complexity 1) random sequence complexity (RSC), 2) ordered sequence complexity (OSC), or 3) Functional Sequence Complexity (FSC)."

Random (RSC): fgskztosbclgdsk.
Order (OSC): hhhhhhdddddduuuuuu: Crystals, Snow Flakes, Sand Dunes, Fractals.

Functional Sequence Complexity (FSC): "It Puts The Lotion in the Basket", Sand Castles, The Genetic CODE, Barbecue Grills, Indy Cars, Hyper-NanoTech Machines and Robots (Kinesin, ATP Synthase, Flagellum, Cilia....ad nauseam) et al.

So RSC and OSC = "Nature" construct, "Shannon Information".

FSC = Intelligent Design Construct.

"In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity"
Leslie E. Orgel, The Origins of Life: Molecules and Natural Selection, pg. 189 (Chapman & Hall: London, 1973

"The attempts to relate the idea of order...with biological organization or specificity must be regarded as a play on words that cannot stand careful scrutiny. Informational macromolecules can code genetic messages and therefore can carry information because the sequence of bases or residues is affected very little, if at all, by [self-organizing] physicochemical factors".
H.P. Yockey; "A Calculation of Probability of Spontaneous Biogenesis by Information Theory"; Journal of Theoretical Biology 67, 1977; p. 390.



You angles in the fractal shape are a code.


Yea, if you're on shrooms.



regards
 

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