Creationist argument about DNA and information

Huh? Go ahead and show a case where "Information" is present and there is no sender and receiver....?

DNA.
Who is the sender and receiver?

We are going around in circles now. I asked you how you could tell information was present without already knowing the sender and receiver. You replied, "I already posted what "Information" was, it's apodictic."

I accepted that to be polite, and now you have gone back to the sender-->information-->receiver sandwich.

Do you know what "apodictic" means?
 
That's the Point! Information is neither matter or energy; it's Semiotic, i.e., it's beyond Physical Laws.

No. Information is data that has a meaning in a given context.

Really? This is tantamount to viewing a Magnetic Board with the message:

"Be back Later, Gone Fishing. The Instructions are on the table, have the Exponential Specifically Complex Space Shuttle built when I return. Have a nice day"; then concluding...

That the force between Magnets of the Letters and the Board is responsible for the Construction, Arrangement of those Letters, and the Message thereof!!
This is your position?

No. It is not even a well constructed strawman.

Hans
 
1. Please show HOW/WHY this is "special pleading"....?

"Special pleading is a form of fallacious argument that involves an attempt to cite something as an exception to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exception."

So here is your rule that you have declared as absolute:

And information never comes about by chance; it always comes from a mind.

And you've said that aliens could not have created the information in DNA, because who would create the information necessary for the aliens to function? It'd be turtles all the way down. And yet, you then claim that God does not need someone to create the information that makes up God. By your information rule, a mind would have needed to of created God. Hence, special pleading.

ETA: BTW, 1LOT "Pillar of Science" is a reference that you only use. If you want people to "See:", you'll need to actually describe what it is you are talking about.
 
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3. "Laws of Chemistry account for what you observe"?? Well go ahead...

Please show us, HOW on Earth does:

CCU, CCC, CCA, CCG = ....................... Proline.
CUU, CUC, CUA, CUG, UUA, UUG =.................... Leucine
UAA, UAG, UGA =................................... STOP!


Please show the Physico-Chemical links....? If you can't, (and you can't) then, you hear that sound?? That's your World-View circling the drain @ Light Speed!
Are you really suggesting that the physico-chemical processes by which mRNA codons are translated to amino acids via tRNA are not known?
 
2) "the instructions to form a living being" - "instructions" assumes too much, it sneaks in the conclusion they are trying to reach.
It also ignores a basic fact of biology. DNA by itself cannot form a living being! Look at your foot - when was the last time that it formed a living being?
A living being for bisexual species needs the DNA of its mother to provide an environment , e.g. the uterus of mammals. The DNA of a fetus provides a framework in which a living being forms as also influenced by their environment (think of the many problems that a bad environment has, e.g. fetal alcohol spectrum disorder).

The environment can have a massive effect, e.g. the temperature of the eggs of some species determines the gender.
 
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Most are aware that the Answers In Genesis website gives arguments about creationism. One of their arguments is:
This is ignorance and circular reasoning: An ignorant definition of information as stuff created by a mind. God has a mind. Thus all information (not only in DNA!) comes from God.
Followed a delusion about what an atheist would say.
Atheist would probably say: "Given a rational definition of information, DNA contains information. There are several known mechanisms that generate information in DNA (mutation, etc.)".
 
So Ink/Paper/Glue Molecules can author War and Peace?
...
hope it helps
Gibberish does not help anyone, Daniel.
We know that DNA contains biological information in its sequence of nucleobases. We know that this information is not a computer program or language or blueprint. These are incomplete analogies.
 
The Laws of Physics, Chemistry/ Biochemistry, Information; and the tenets of Specific Complexity, Irreducible Complexity, and Common Sense Rule Nature out...Laughingly so.
We really have to laugh at such ignorance, Daniel.
:dl:
The Laws of Physics are Nature!
The Laws of Chemistry are Nature!
The Laws of Biochemistry are Nature!
The Laws of Information do not rule out Nature (except to the ignorant creationists at AIG).
Specific Complexity is invalid pseudoscience that creationists in disguise tout and rational, knowledgeable people laugh at. A decade years now and not one actual calculation for a real biological system :eek:!
Irreducible Complexity is invalid pseudoscience that creationists in disguise tout and rational, knowledgeable people laugh at. A decade years now and not one actual example of a real biological system that is correctly irreducibly complex (not Behe's original strawman argument) :eek:!

Anyone with common sense would learn about the facts and scientific theory of evolution and the role of information in it and rule Nature in.
 
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Yea, it is and authors Exponential Magnitudes greater Functional Sequence/Specific Complexity than anything man could construct or even consider conceiving of: "Life".

What does that have to do with War and Peace?

Information/Software/Code is only ever ever ever sourced by Intelligent Agency, without Exception!!

Balls.
For starters, DNA is not software or code, other than via an analogy and, as with all analogies, it is very rough.
DNA is also only information insomuch as any chemical interaction (indeed any bit of physics) contains information. Or are you going to tell me that carbon forming diamond is "code"?
 
Why? The designer of Windows 7 "Software" isn't in my CPU and not standing beside me... but my computer continues to work.






I already posted what "Information" was, it's apodictic.





I think I understand, see if this helps...

You walk into a restaurant, open up the Menu and read "Peking Duck with Roasted Garlic $28.95" ---- INFORMATION; then conclude, that until you see the Specific Intelligent Agent that wrote it.... that there's an Equal Chance that the Ink/Paper/Glue Molecules that make up the menu are responsible for the: Construction, Arrangement of the Letters, and the Message thereof!
Quite preposterous.

DNA contains INFORMATION: Algorithms "Programs" within "Programs" in Sub-Folders of "Programs". It has enough Functionally Specific Complex Information (1/1000th of which would make Einstein Blush) in a teaspoon to fill a stack of Books from here to the Moon 500 Times! Your conclusion: Absent the Specific Intelligent Agent...... Ribose, Nucleo-Bases, and Activated Phosphates (The Ink/Paper/Glue Molecules) wrote The "Programs".....Genetic CODE.
Again, preposterous.

Moreover, "Information" displays Functionally Sequence/Specific Complexity; as opposed to Ordered Sequence Complexity or Random Sequence Complexity.


regards

This all sounds pretty complex. Tell me, What test can i use to determine if something is/has Functionally Sequence/Specific Complexity?
 
Huh? Go ahead and show a case where "Information" is present and there is no sender and receiver....?





Yes, it's Functionally Sequence/Specifically Complex.





You only have 2 choices as to "How" we are here: Nature (Unguided) or Intelligent Design (GOD - Guided). The Laws of Physics, Chemistry/ Biochemistry, Information; and the tenets of Specific Complexity, Irreducible Complexity, and Common Sense Rule Nature out...Laughingly so. If you summarily rule one of the choices out.... where does it leave you?
Based on the Law of Non-Contradiction--- two things that are contradictory can't be responsible @ the same time (or do you disagree?). This is not a False Dichotomy (Bifurcation Fallacy) because there is no THIRD CHOICE. Now if I summarily refute Nature (Unguided) the choice MUST BE ID. YOU MAY THEN conjure thousands of possibilities under ID; however, it has ZERO to do with the tenets of first postulate.





It's not merely "complex"; again, it's Functional Sequence/Specifically Complexity that is the compelling factor of the matter.

There are 3 Types of Complexity 1) random sequence complexity (RSC), 2) ordered sequence complexity (OSC), or Functional Sequence Complexity (FSC)."

Random (RSC): fgskztosbclgdsk.

Order (OSC): hhhhhhdddddduuuuuu: Crystals, Snow Flakes, Sand Dunes.

Functional Sequence Complexity (FSC): "It Puts The Lotion in the Basket", Sand Castles, The Genetic CODE, Barbecue Grills, Indy Cars, Hyper-NanoTech Machines and Robots (Kinesin, ATP Synthase, Flagellum, Cilia....ad nauseam) et al.

So RSC and OSC = "Nature", "Shannon Information".

FSC = Intelligent Design Construct.

"In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity". {emphasis mine}
Leslie E. Orgel, The Origins of Life: Molecules and Natural Selection, pg. 189 (Chapman & Hall: London, 1973

"The attempts to relate the idea of order...with biological organization or specificity must be regarded as a play on words that cannot stand careful scrutiny. Informational macromolecules can code genetic messages and therefore can carry information because the sequence of bases or residues is affected very little, if at all, by [self-organizing] physicochemical factors".
H.P. Yockey; "A Calculation of Probability of Spontaneous Biogenesis by Information Theory"; Journal of Theoretical Biology 67, 1977; p. 390.





1. You can't even get the Physical Molecules, "Functional" (DNA/ RNA/ Proteins) "Naturally":

a. Functional DNA/RNA/Proteins NEVER spontaneously form "naturally", outside already existing cells, from Sugars, Bases, Phosphates, and Aminos, respectively.
It's Physically and Chemically IMPOSSIBLE!
That's just the Hardware!

To refute, Please show a Functional 30 mer- RNA or Protein (most are 250 AA or larger) that formed spontaneously "Outside" a Cell/Living Organism, CITE SOURCE! The smallest "Functional" DNA (Genome) is a little over 100,000 Nucleotides... so that ain't happenin.

Then the WOOLLY Mammoth in the Room...

b. How Did Stupid Atoms Write Their Own Software....? In other words, show how Ink/Paper/Glue Molecules can Author Technical Instruction Manuals/Blueprints...?

2. "millions of years"?? Please Scientifically Validate...Post the Formal Scientific Hypothesis then Experiment that confirms your claim...?
Please highlight the "Independent Variable" used in the TESTS....?




Can you validate that there is no "Interference", as you say?




Does that Rule Out HIS presence.





Validate that HE'S "Long Gone"....?




Original Design?? Are you saying it was different 'then' than now?


regards

Information is an artifact of human thought, it has no independent existence.
 
So the 3rd Possibility is aliens?

Hmmm:

1. Nature (unguided)

2. Intelligent Design/GOD (Guided)

Your Choice --- 3. "Aliens". Would this fit in any of the 2 Categories above?

This is basically a punt: same questions, different Genesis location.


regards

Complex things require a designer, god is complex so who designed god?
 
Daniel: "Information is neither matter or energy; it's Semiotic, i.e., it's beyond Physical Laws.


Norbert Wiener Professor Mathematics MIT...

Information is information, neither matter nor energy.
Wiener, N., Cybernetics, or Control and Communication in the Animal and the Machine, Hermann et Cie, The Technology Press, Paris, 1948.

So Information is Matter/Energy, eh? Please show...?


Information is data that has a meaning in a given context.


Ok, how does 'data' acquire "CONTEXT"...? THEN, How does it have "Meaning"...?

Is this Information:

eyfmv sbekfl ehaftjf imyayeod fasfstllgjda kolvn evt4s3refd 42ofdwr pgjdfner yerithdnvkdkg mdskd. ??


No. It is not even a well constructed strawman.


Really, why/how so ??

regards
 
Complex things require a designer, god is complex so who designed god?


The Who Created the CREATOR conundrum, eh?

Well, HE is the CREATOR. The "CREATOR" can't be "created" or else, HE couldn't be the "CREATOR", by simple definition.
Furthermore Logically....for finite things to exist (Universe, Us), there MUST BE an Eternal ("Always Was") Source; it's a Contingent Necessary FACT. SEE: Aristotle (Prime/Unmoved Mover, Un-Caused First Cause). To deny this, you are forced into a logical checkmate then reduced to introducing an Infinite Regress (like you just did in your query)...it's Fallacious.

Nothing can CREATE itself...because that would mean: It Existed Prior To It's Existence. Logical Seppuku
Also, there can be Only One "CREATOR"...considering more than one, even for a Planck Time, is again...Logical Seppuku.


regards

ps. We're not talking about 'complex' but Functional Sequence/Specified Complexity.

Here, pick out then label the 'complex' vs Functional Sequence/Specified Complex:

1. Sand Dune

2. Sand Castle

a. ldnhfufedui vhgfay hvhdft dgseewieo hg dgwru

b. It Puts The Lotion In The Basket !!


regards
 
Got it. God didn't make sand dunes.

We might have a point of agreement here.
 
Daniel: "Information is neither matter or energy; it's Semiotic, i.e., it's beyond Physical Laws.



Norbert Wiener Professor Mathematics MIT...

Information is information, neither matter nor energy.
Wiener, N., Cybernetics, or Control and Communication in the Animal and the Machine, Hermann et Cie, The Technology Press, Paris, 1948.

So Information is Matter/Energy, eh? Please show...?

I did not say it was. I said it is not beyond physical laws. Information IS, however, stored and exchanged as matter/energy.


Ok, how does 'data' acquire "CONTEXT"...? THEN, How does it have "Meaning"...?

Is this Information:

eyfmv sbekfl ehaftjf imyayeod fasfstllgjda kolvn evt4s3refd 42ofdwr pgjdfner yerithdnvkdkg mdskd. ??

I have no idea. Because I don't know the context. If it is enigma code, then it has meaning.

Hans
 
Got it. God didn't make sand dunes.

We might have a point of agreement here.

FWIW, as author of a book on the subject of dunes, I can attest that some dunes are way better designed than some sand castles! :)
 
Nothing can CREATE itself...

Oh ye of little faith...

DrawingHands.jpg
 

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