Creationist argument about DNA and information

[Lukraak_Sisser]

How do you explain that random sequences of RNA can from a self - replicating molecule that contains it's own information on what to replicate and how?

Of course the fact that DNA gets compared to books or software shows total ignorance of what it actually is or how it works.

Now I'm not saying that there is no chance that there is no designer for DNA, but I sure as heck hope so, because if something *designed* our genes and the way life works on a molecular level that entity is a total incompetent.
Given god-like powers any first year biochemistry student can design something better.

 

[RussDill]

So the 3rd Possibility is aliens?

Hmmm:

1. Nature (unguided)

2. Intelligent Design/GOD (Guided)

Your Choice --- 3. "Aliens". Would this fit in any of the 2 Categories above?

This is basically a punt: same questions, different Genesis location.


regards

So you are saying that God contains no information?

 

[Daniel]

I see we have a new member who doesn't understand what feedback loops are and what happens when they operate for millions of years.

Begging The Question x 2: 1. "Feedback Loops" and 2. "millions of years".

1. These require Information, which is neither Matter/Energy; ergo, where'd you get "Information" ??

2. "millions of years". Please Scientifically Validate....

Post the Formal Scientific Hypothesis then Experiment(s) that validates your claim....?
Highlight the "Independent Variable" used in the TESTS...?

regards

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Appeal to Ridicule (Fallacy).

You laugh at Nature, it laughs at you.

the tenets of Specific Complexity, Irreducible Complexity, and Common Sense Rule Nature out...Laughingly so.

'Specific Complexity' is pseudoscience, complexity isn't irreducible, and 'Common Sense' has no place in science.

Do you have a cogent substantive position or argument?

First show that you can present a cogent substantive position or argument. Stop spouting pseudo-scientific rubbish and the dog might stop laughing.

 

[Tolls]

So Ink/Paper/Glue Molecules can author War and Peace?

Neither can DNA.
Your point is?

 

[Daniel]

How do you explain that random sequences of RNA can from a self - replicating molecule that contains it's own information on what to replicate and how?

1. Begging The Question: where'd you get "Functional" RNA?? Start here...

"Functional" RNA, NEVER forms "Naturally" spontaneously from it's respective building blocks. To refute, please post a "Functional" 30-mer or larger RNA....? Cite Reference Please....?

The DeltaG for Nucleosides wickering themselves together from bases and sugars is "POSITIVE" as is the Phosphorylation into Nucleotides. Sunlight is a severe demonstrable antagonist to ALL of it (as it destroys Nucleo-Bases and Amino Acids). That's not even speaking to: Stereoisomerization, Hydrolysis, Brownian Motion, Oxidation, pH, and Cross Reactions from here to Christmas. I'd also like to see the precursors for those Bases (purines and pyrimidines) all "Natural" like within the constraints of 2LOT.

From the Grand Poobahs of OOL Research (That's not even "Science", btw)...

"We conclude that the direct synthesis of the nucleosides or nucleotides from prebiotic precursors in reasonable yield and unaccompanied by larger amounts of related molecules could not be achieved by presently known chemical reactions."
Gerald F. Joyce, and Leslie E. Orgel, "Prospects for Understanding the Origin of the RNA World," p. 18 The RNA World, R.F. Gesteland and J.F. Atkins, eds. Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory Press, 1993.

This is well, WELL before we discuss any "replication" scenario. And Light Years away from...

2. Show where the "Information" is specifically, in any molecule...?

Of course the fact that DNA gets compared to books or software shows total ignorance of what it actually is or how it works.

Yes, they are TOTALLY IGNORANT...

"DNA is ACTUALLY the Software of Life... Chemically we wrote the Genome starting with 4 bottles of chemicals, LITERALLY going from the one's and zero's in the computer to writing the Four Letter Alphabet and shown in fact that it's TOTALLY INTERCHANGEABLE between the digital world and the biological world. We then wrote the entire 1.1 million Letters of the Genetic Code booted it up and gotta New CELL driven totally by the SOFTWARE.
So that's what we call Synthetic Life, we actually used living cells to boot it up but YOU CHANGE THE SOFTWARE AND YOU CHANGE THE SPECIES." {emphasis mine}
Craig Venter PhD Geneticist (NIH, Celera Genomics), Video Interview

"The genetic code performs a mapping between the sequences of the four nucleotides in mRNA to the sequences of the 20 amino acids in protein. It is highly relevant to the origin of life that the genetic code is constructed to confront and solve the problems of communication and recording by the same principles found both in the genetic information system and in modern computer and communication codes." {emphasis mine}
Yockey, HP; Origin of life on earth and Shannon's theory of communication. In open problems of computational molecular biology. Computers and Chemistry; 24(1):105-123, Jan 2000

You heard of the Dunning–Kruger effect ??

...because if something *designed* our genes and the way life works on a molecular level that entity is a total incompetent.

This is a tear jerkin belly laugher. I'd be shocked if you've taken an 80 level Biology Course.

But please, wicker together Kinesin for us....?

Given god-like powers any first year biochemistry student can design something better.

Sure, and Anna Nicole married for Love and Pol Pot was her Florist.

SHOW....?


regards

 

[Daniel]

You laugh at Nature, it laughs at you.

Cute

'Specific Complexity' is pseudoscience...

"In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity. Crystals are usually taken as the prototypes of simple well-specified structures, because they consist of a very large number of identical molecules packed together in a uniform way. Lumps of granite or random mixtures of polymers are examples of structures that are complex but not specified. The crystals fail to qualify as living because they lack complexity; the mixtures of polymers fail to qualify because they lack specificity" {emphasis mine}
Leslie E. Orgel, The Origins of Life: Molecules and Natural Selection, pg. 189 (Chapman & Hall: London, 1973

So you're saying Dr. Leslie Orgel was a Pseudo-Scientist?

complexity isn't irreducible

So you're a fan of Irreducible Complexity?

and 'Common Sense' has no place in science.

Do you even know what "Science" is....?

Define it...?

Post the tenets of a Scientific Hypothesis and provide an example of one...?

What is a Scientific Theory....?

What is a Scientific Law....?

First show that you can present a cogent substantive position or argument.

I already have.

Stop spouting pseudo-scientific rubbish and the dog might stop laughing.

1. Appeal to Ridicule Fallacy (again)

2. Ipse Dixit Generalized Sweeping Baseless 'bald' Assertion Fallacy. Show a for instance...?


regards

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed

I'm not going to search trough all literature for you. It's your ignorance, not mine.
Nucleotides can be formed easily from non-organic molecules, especially in the anoxic environments of pre-biotic earth. Self assembly is in no way impossible either, nor is there any reason the assume the earliest self replicating molecules.

And sure, I'll show you how to create better life. You provide me with god-like powers, or as next best thing, an unlimited budget, 200 labworkers and lets say 20 years time.

In return I promise to design a living cell that does NOT contain an unnecessary double genetic code, whose main energy producers CAN be created from it's own DNA, a protein synthesis mechanism that does NOT need an intermediary or something as expensively complex as a ribosome, an energy producing pathway that is not damaged by the oxygen producing the energy, no genes producing non-functional proteins for essential amino acids etc etc etc.

 

[Daniel]

Neither can DNA.

Yea, it is and authors Exponential Magnitudes greater Functional Sequence/Specific Complexity than anything man could construct or even consider conceiving of: "Life".

Your point is?

Information/Software/Code is only ever ever ever sourced by Intelligent Agency, without Exception!!


regards

 

[AdamSK]

"In brief, living organisms are distinguished by their specified complexity.

Except that "specified complexity" is a subjective concept. It's not something that you can objectively demonstrate exists from the facts alone; you have to determine it exists by your intuition.

There is no actual evidence for specified complexity in biological systems. Natural selection working on self-replicating systems according to the laws of chemistry entirely account for what we observe, without postulating any intelligent source for the structure or function of the systems.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

Begging The Question x 2: 1. "Feedback Loops" and 2. "millions of years".

1. These require Information, which is neither Matter/Energy; ergo, where'd you get "Information" ??

2. "millions of years". Please Scientifically Validate....

Post the Formal Scientific Hypothesis then Experiment(s) that validates your claim....?
Highlight the "Independent Variable" used in the TESTS...?

regards

Have a blessed Leap Day.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Specified complexity

is a pseudoscientific concept proposed by William Dembski and used by him and others to promote intelligent design.

So you're a fan of Irreducible Complexity?

Do you even know what "Science" is....?

I already have.

 

[RussDill]

I see we've completed sidestepped the whole special pleading issue when it comes to a comparison between aliens and God writing Earth DNA.

 

[stanfr]

Cute

That would be Copper and Tellurium...and interesting alloy but not one I as designer whip up every day--it just doesn't deliver the right INFO (Iodine, Nitrogen, Fluorine, Oxygen...I'm working on that one

 

[Daniel]

I see we've completed sidestepped the whole special pleading issue when it comes to a comparison between aliens and God writing Earth DNA.

1. Please show HOW/WHY this is "special pleading"....?

2. Moreover, from someone who 'Stage 5 Clings' to the Mother of Mothers of Special Pleading Fallacies...

Something from Nothing. (SEE: 1LOT "Pillar of Science")

Pot meet Kettle.


regards

 

[MRC_Hans]

Sorry for jumping in before reading the whole thread:

Answers In Genesis[/URL] website gives arguments about creationism. One of their arguments is:

Christian: “DNA has information in it—the instructions to form a living being. And information never comes about by chance; it always comes from a mind. So DNA proves that God created the first creatures.”

The fault is in the highlighted part. What law of nature says that information is always made by a mind?

Answer: None. Nature is full of information that comes from natural, mindless processes.

Hans

 

[Daniel]

Except that "specified complexity" is a subjective concept.

Really? How so...?

It's not something that you can objectively demonstrate exists....

Ahhh, you just "Objectively Demonstrated It" with your sentence here. Unless I'm to assume that the Display Pixels conspired with a Keyboard to construct the letters, form them into sentences, and assign the meaning, thereof!!

Natural selection working on self-replicating systems according to the laws of chemistry entirely account for what we observe, without postulating any intelligent source for the structure or function of the systems.

1. Natural Selection Working?? Reification Fallacy:

Natural Selection is a Contradiction in Terms. To be able to "SELECT" you must have the ability to REASON; Sentience and Intelligence...is "Nature" Alive??

Natural Selection is a "Concept"; Non-Physical/Immaterial. "Concepts" aren't Mechanisms because the Non-Physical can't Manipulate the Physical.
It's Tantamount to claiming that the "Race for Space" (Concept) was the Mechanism for the Apollo 11 Lunar Module, or Freedom (Concept) developed the Battle Plans for the Revolutionary War.

William Provine Cornell University Professor evolutionary Biology.....

"Natural selection does not act on anything, nor does it select (for or against), force, maximize, create, modify, shape, operate, drive, favor, maintain, push, or adjust. NATURAL SELECTION DOES NOTHING….Having natural selection select is nifty because it excuses the necessity of talking about the actual causation of natural selection. Such talk was excusable for Charles Darwin, but inexcusable for evolutionists now. Creationists have discovered our empty “natural selection” language, and the “actions” of natural selection make huge, vulnerable targets."{emphasis mine}
Provine, W., The Origin of Theoretical Population Genetics (University of Chicago Press, Re-issue 2001), pg. 199-200

2. "self replicating systems"?? For instance...?

3. "Laws of Chemistry account for what you observe"?? Well go ahead...

Please show us, HOW on Earth does:

CCU, CCC, CCA, CCG = ....................... Proline.
CUU, CUC, CUA, CUG, UUA, UUG =.................... Leucine
UAA, UAG, UGA =................................... STOP!


Please show the Physico-Chemical links....? If you can't, (and you can't) then, you hear that sound?? That's your World-View circling the drain @ Light Speed!

Ed Lewis PhD Genetics, Nobel Laureate ....

"The Laws of Genetics have never depended upon knowing what genes are chemically and would hold true even if they were made of green cheese".--caltechedu (07/22/2004)

That is, "The Medium" (Physical DNA/RNA) is quite Irrelevant and Arbitrary.


regards

 

[Daniel]

Sorry for jumping in before reading the whole thread:

What law of nature says that information is always made by a mind?

That's the Point! Information is neither matter or energy; it's Semiotic, i.e., it's beyond Physical Laws.

Nature is full of information that comes from natural, mindless processes.

Really? This is tantamount to viewing a Magnetic Board with the message:

"Be back Later, Gone Fishing. The Instructions are on the table, have the Exponential Specifically Complex Space Shuttle built when I return. Have a nice day"; then concluding...

That the force between Magnets of the Letters and the Board is responsible for the Construction, Arrangement of those Letters, and the Message thereof!!
This is your position?


regards

 

[AdamSK]

Really? How so...?

Because it can't be objectively defined. You can't come up with an objective set of rules that can be used to determine whether a system demonstrates specified complexity and to what extent.

Or can you? Do you have a set of objective rules for determining whether a system has specified complexity or not that we can examine? I not, the rest of your argument is essentially question-begging.

 

[AdamSK]

Natural Selection is a Contradiction in Terms. To be able to "SELECT" you must have the ability to REASON; Sentience and Intelligence...

Incorrect. To select, all that has to exist is a property that differentiates and an environment that responds to the differential.

Turbulence in water selects for density of particles, resulting in graded sediment:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graded_bedding

Similar phenomena occur in nature all the time. Certain particles filter into particular environments or are leached out; particular sorts of materials are selected to remain in orbit while others are selectively stripped by magnetic fields or collisions.
And, similarly, natural selection works to preserve animals with traits that survive differentially better in a given environment than their competitors. No intelligence necessary; simply an interaction with a difference.