• Security incident: ISF was recently accessed by intruders. Please change your password, and change it anywhere else you used it. Read more

Continuation Part 20: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

Status
Not open for further replies.
So how do any of these witnesses tell us what was happening inside the flat? You claim they are witnesses to a flurry of activity in the flat. But those that claim to see Knox and Sollecito see them outside the flat. The 'ear' witnesses heard an unidentified scream and say nothing about Knox and Sollecito.

Do you know what a picagram is? Because I don't. The DNA was trace, low copy number (by the way these refer to two different attributes and are not synonyms). I do not claim that the profile was not Sollecito's. Although i think the statistics of attribution of mixed DNA are difficult, and my grasp of statistics is better than yours.

The Raff DNA was NOT low copy. The external third party witnesses - contrary to your assertions - are not irrelevant to what was going on in the cottage.

If your "grasp of statistics is better" than mine, I'm surprised you have never acknowledged that I am indeed correct that game theory is probability theory. If you recall, you announced on the forum game theory had nothing to do with probability theory.

How would you know you have a better grasp of statistics? That sounds like an entirely fatuous claim. It is laughable.
 
Skimming Massei's report p. 354ff, in relation to Vixen's repetition of "Amanda's size 37's were found in the murder room," left me wondering if she is prepared for the implications of that.

Is Vixen also claiming AK changed shoes mid-participation?

Maybe, maybe not. But Inspector Boemia thought what he saw were women's ASICS . Isn't there ANYTHING which the remaining PGP can raise without causing another difficulty?

Professor Boemia had analysed over 10K forensic footprints and handprints. He came to the conclusion it was a ladies shoe, because of the narrowness of the heel. He then researched a possible trainer based on his scientifically measured dimensions and came up with the ASCIS ladies size 37 as being of a similar fit.

I don't know if you are aware, but shoe manufacturers use a narrower sole template for ladies shoes than they do for gents as females tend to have smaller bone structure.

At no time did he claim the ASICS was Amanda's shoe.

To "explain" away the inconvenient presence of this print within the murder room, the armchair PIP have had to invent a ludicrous story of it being Rudy's shoe on some doubled up sheet, hence the narrow dimension of the sole.

Really, is there ANYTHING you claim Rudy didn't do?
 
It's fine to propose that a print is compatible with a shoe size but this disintegrates into nothing when the shoe tread impression cannot be matched to any shoe on the market of that size. As B/M said...."a flawed investigation". To find the shoe brand to match the tread of a women's size 36 to 38 should not be that difficult and when someone's entire life depends on this finding its criminal in itself to bring into court "evidence" of this nature.

A parallel might be finding a tyre print matching a 205/55R16 size tyre but being unable to find the tyre brand of that size that has the matching tread. This is evidence of a flawed finding and flawed reasoning.

A tyre and a shoe that don't exist?

Not all shoes are made on the mass market. I bought a pair of handmade leather sandals when I was in Jericho, Israel/Palestine - for which it's famous - which I doubt would be easily researched by any forensics team, were I to leave a footprint with them.
 
Chief Inspector Boemia’s investigation of merchants and shoe manufacturers led him to identify a woman’s shoe brand, ASICS, on which he then focussed his attention in consideration of the specific form of the sole, whose width was equal to 40mm, which contained a circle just next to the hind part of the heel.
Inspector Boemia reiterated during the course of his deposition that the photo 105 print could not have corresponded to that left behind by a man’s shoe, taking into account the different range in width one would expect from a man’s shoe, measuring around 60mm in width.
The purpose of the investigation of merchants and shoe manufacturers was not to propose the ASICS as the shoe that produced the print in question


Now if you have something where Boemia claimed as you said above the prints were left by ASICS shoes now would be a good time to link it.

Of interest is the false attribution of a woman's footprint had been made before the arrest of Knox. One of the pluses of the extensive trawl through early newspaper reports for the one you posted and deleted.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepag...irls-phones-Meredith-Kercher-Amanda-Knox.html

Cops have not ruled out the killer being a woman. Size seven footprints were found plus strands of long hair. Bloody finger marks are also being analysed.

This article also is an early report of the "blond man"
Pals said she did not have a boyfriend, but recently spurned the advances of a blond Italian man.
I think it possible that the person the locals had in mind was someone Amanda Knox had spurned, rather than Meredith Kercher.

In Waiting To Be Heard Knox quotes a Mail on Sunday report saying that a woman was a suspect and concludes that this indicates police already thought she had committed the murder. I can see why she might think that, but it is more likely it was just a result of the spurious phantom shoe print identification. So in this instance more cock-up than conspiracy.
Although I wouldn't be surprised if the police thought she was withholding information.

While it is easy with hindsight to criticize the identification - and they especially should have dropped it once the Sollecitos supplied the genuine shoe print. However, in isolation and without the reference shoe sole it is a surprising real looking artefact.

And lets face it, the Sollecitos probably had the advantage of inside knowledge when they identified the shoes correctly - unless Uncle Guiseppe is an unacknowledged footwear specialist. In my view they more than likely used their contacts to find out the exact make of shoes Hicham Khiri was wearing that night.
 
Last edited:
But we do NOT know a flurry of activity occurred, there are no eye witnesses to the happenings inside the cottage other than Guede. What witnesses we have Curatalo, KoKomani place Knox and Sollecito outside the flat. By the time you combine the observations of Popovic, Curatalo and Kokomani exactly when would Knox and Sollecito have had time for this flurry of activity you claim? If you accept the validity of these witnesses then they place Knox and Sollecito away from the flat. Then you have the broken down car and pick up truck who noticed no activity despite being best positioned to do so.
Planigale, you need to treat this as an Italian crime in a particular Italian social setting and not a quarrel about untended garden verges between two nice middle-class neighbours.

If you actually look at the CCTV images that the Friends of Amanda clown squad have uploaded, it is blindingly obvious that there are no images of tow-truck outside the driveway.
This one is the best
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/CCTV-Tow-Truck-6.jpg
It is just a bunch of cars. Kokomani was definite that there was no tow truck outside, but he did see a van.

The broken down car and the tow truck was just the cover story for the fact that a bunch of cars suddenly appeared outside the house in the immediate aftermath of the murder. Hence, why Kokomani is a very unreliable witness, unlike the others, he is not completely dishonest and if you can work out how he is being influenced by the duress he is under, you can extract more than he explicitly says.

You need to realize that Perugia is a place where small businesses still pay protection money to the local Mob.
This is quite a useful article, because although written six months after the murder, it seems uninterested or unaffected by the PR campaign that was still in its infancy
http://www.theamericanmag.com/article_print.php?article=1590&show_images=1

The underworld connection here has nothing to do with garbage collection or funeral homes — at least for the time being — but focuses instead on torrents of cash that have flowed into the region for earthquake restoration. The available cash has drawn organized crime to such an extent that many of the teams of construction workers employed pay pizzo, or protection money, simply to be allowed to work.

Pippo Calò.

Proof of Mafia presence, if it were needed, came when police recently discovered the decomposed body of a Sicilian gangster in the woods near Gubbio. He had been lured to the spot by another Mafioso and riddled with bullets — just like in the movies. Subsequent inquiries revealed that he and his alleged assassin headed a gang that has made its base in Umbria, deliberately chosen for its clean record and pristine image.

The headquarters of the new criminal operations is, apparently, Perugia, from which they have conducted a series of armed robberies and which acts as the center for their flourishing arms and drugs trafficking business. The boss alleged to have dispatched his erstwhile colleague in the woods of Gubbio was arrested in a well known nightclub in Perugia, as he sat drinking with several girls.

The Perugia connection comes as no surprise in Spoleto. The Umbrian capital is well known as being chockablock with freemasons. "If you want to get anywhere in Perugia, you absolutely have to join the freemasons," a policeman friend of mine told me the other day. Shades of the P2 Masonic Lodge — the other big story that gripped the interest of many a foreign journalist down the years.

Sounds like an idea for a great movie.

So if you are a local small business garage and the local Mob turn up on your doorstep and ask for a favor - are you really going to say no?

So these are the two scenarios:
1. A bunch of cars break down in front the house where a murder has just taken place and an invisible tow truck comes and takes them away.
or
2. After the murder occurs some friends of the perpetrator turn up to assist unaware that there is a CCTV opposite. They are disturbed around 23:00 by Knox and Sollecito. In order to conceal their activity they strong arm a local garage and some associates from the capital to account for the CCTV images.

The fact that Kokomani saw the cars but the occupants of the cars didnt see Kokomani, should tell you scenario 2 is more likely
 
Professor Boemia had analysed over 10K forensic footprints and handprints. He came to the conclusion it was a ladies shoe, because of the narrowness of the heel. He then researched a possible trainer based on his scientifically measured dimensions and came up with the ASCIS ladies size 37 as being of a similar fit.

I don't know if you are aware, but shoe manufacturers use a narrower sole template for ladies shoes than they do for gents as females tend to have smaller bone structure.

At no time did he claim the ASICS was Amanda's shoe.

To "explain" away the inconvenient presence of this print within the murder room, the armchair PIP have had to invent a ludicrous story of it being Rudy's shoe on some doubled up sheet, hence the narrow dimension of the sole.

Really, is there ANYTHING you claim Rudy didn't do?

cpycqQa.jpg


Vixen please quote this image and tell me they were made by different shoes so I can witness the depths of your self delusion.
 
Not all shoes are made on the mass market. I bought a pair of handmade leather sandals when I was in Jericho, Israel/Palestine - for which it's famous - which I doubt would be easily researched by any forensics team, were I to leave a footprint with them.

Vixen did the birds note that Amanda had some strange brand of shoe they didn't recognize that was now missing?

Were there other examples of the shoe print anywhere else in the house?

Was there a spot where the little shoe stepped in the blood?

What happened to these shoes?

Do you think Amanda and Rudi coordinated shoes in order to produce similar ring prints?
 
Here's the image the prosecution used to conclude it was a ladies sized footprint, i have highlighted in blue the vertical line that was actually the border of a second shoeprint they wrongfully believed was from the very same print:

2mB505s.jpg


Here's Vinci showing the numerous and significant match points:

vLztNfo.jpg


Here's Vinci proving beyond a doubt that there were multiple shoe prints overlapping:

AuVHsUK.jpg


Here's the final composite of the shoe prints:

s2B2sj4.jpg


Here's the PGP dealing with this irrefutable conclusion:

confusion.jpg
 
bagels very disappointed in you. It is obvious that Amanda and Rudi went out and found shoes that had similar tread patterns and wore those shoes the night of the murder. Amanda went to Raf's afterward and flushed them down the toilet or ground them up and put them down the sink which clogged it up and they had to tear apart the sink plumbing but having anticipated that, they had told Raf's dad an hour before the murder the pipes had broken.
 
Here's the PGP dealing with this irrefutable conclusion:

[qimg]https://miriaminjuarez.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/confusion.jpg[/qimg]

Not really. A skeptic might be filled with questions and admit that the evidence doesn't fit what is claimed.

Others just press on ahead using their premise ("A woman's size 37 was found in Meredith's room,") as the proof that Amanda was in Meredith's room.
 
Here's the image the prosecution used to conclude it was a ladies sized footprint, i have highlighted in blue the vertical line that was actually the border of a second shoeprint they wrongfully believed was from the very same print:

[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/2mB505s.jpg[/qimg]

Here's Vinci showing the numerous and significant match points:

[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/vLztNfo.jpg[/qimg]

Here's Vinci proving beyond a doubt that there were multiple shoe prints overlapping:

[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/AuVHsUK.jpg[/qimg]

Here's the final composite of the shoe prints:

[qimg]http://i.imgur.com/s2B2sj4.jpg[/qimg]

Here's the PGP dealing with this irrefutable conclusion:

[qimg]https://miriaminjuarez.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/confusion.jpg[/qimg]

It reminds me of the scene on Chicago where Lucy Liu comes home to find her lover Harry in bed with 2 women and the guy says "he's alone" she replies "Alone? You got 2 other women in bed with you." Harry says, "c'mon doll, you going to believe what you see or what I tell you?"

If Vixen can't look at those images and see for herself what's true, she's as deluded as Harry hopes Lucy is.

Lucy was smarter. She trusted her own eyes and shot all 3 of them.
 
More from Filomena on the 2nd:

"I got a call from Amanda asking me if I knew anything that had come to our house and there was blood in his bathroom, while the front door appeared open. Immediacy not alarmed me greatly, because at first I thought that the girls had left the door open. Anyway I asked Amanda to do a check of the house and let me know if there was something wrong. From this moment on, I can not say for sure if she called me before Amanda or if it was me calling her because they in succession many phone calls between us."

Nencini's idiotic meme (picked up from the even dumber Mignini?) that Filomena had 1 minute "dropped calls" to Amanda demolished in a single blow.

My timeline of the morning of the 2nd is now pretty solid IMO:

~11:00ish Amanda arrives at the cottage to take a shower and get ready for the road trip and is slightly alarmed by the open door and blood and crap in the toilet.

~11:30 Amanda arrives back at Raffs. She mops up the kitchen floor from the broken pipe while he makes breakfast.

~12:00 During breakfast Amanda tells Raff about the strange things she noticed at the cottage. Raff says she should just ask one of her roommates.

12:07 Amanda calls Meredith, gets no answer

12:08 Amanda calls Filomena and asks if she knows anything going on at the cottage, Filomena says no and tells Amanda to asks Meredith.

12:11 This time Amanda tries Meredith's Italian phone, no answer

12:11 She tries the UK phone again no answer

12:12 Filomena calls back, this was probably Filomena telling Amanda she just remembered Laura is out of town, Amanda probably tells her Meredith isn't picking up her phone.

12:16 Filomena calls Meredith's UK phone

12:20 Amanda is waiting for Raff to finish getting ready, she checks gmail on his computer. (Perugia Shock)

12:20 Filomena calls Amanda again and asks her what she sees at the cottage, Amanda tells her has not even yet left the house.

12:22 Amanda checks her friends facebook page after getting off the phone with Filomena

~12:24 Raff is ready and they leave for the cottage

~12:30 Amanda and Raff arrive at the cottage. Within minutes they discover Filomena's room has a break-in

12:34 Filomena calls, Amanda tells her about the break-in, she says she's on her way home

12:35 Raff uses his phone to recharge his minutes

12:38 Raff gets a notification of new minutes on his phone

12:40 Raff gets a call from his father

12:40 Filomena calls her boyfriend and tells him to meet her at the cottage, if he arrives first to call the police

~12:45 Raff and Amanda have tried busting open Meredith's door and peeking in from the balcony.

12:47 Amanda calls her mom, presumably while waiting for Filomena to arrive. Amanda's mom tells her to call the police, she relays this to Raff.

12:50 Raff calls his sister, a police officer, for advice, she says to call the emergency number

12:51 Raff calls the emergency number and reports the break-in

12:55 The call to the police ends

12:55 Amanda and Raff go outside and wait for the police and Filomena to arrive

~12:57 The postal police find the two students waiting outside.

A wonderful reconstruction with only one tiny snag. The CCTV clearly shows the postal police doing exactly what they said they did at 12:35-36. Pausing in the entrance of the carpark and then backing out and moving into the driveway with a 12:36 timestamp.

So lets create the "Investigative Amnesia" reconstruction. This reconstruction is trying to solve the following puzzles
- why the postal police searched Lana's garden when the phones were thrown there
- why the postal police arrived at 12:35 (confirmed by CCTV) and were met by Knox and Sollecito who were waiting for them
- why Filomena lied about internet access on the witness stand
- why Filomena extracted her laptop and then showed it to the police that evening supposedly not working
--------------------------------------

21:52 Giacomo S. and Stefano B. depart cottage by car for Porto San Giorgio to obtain an alibi. They leave behind Daniele De L.
21:59 alerted by incoming SMS, they decide to discard phones by throwing into Lana's garden. Lana or children retrieve one phone (Filomena's) and call postal police.
22:15 Postal police arrive, search rest of garden but do not find the English phone, return to station with Filomena's phone

~ 11:00 in response to a text from Luca Altieri, police ring Altieri using Filomena's phone to try and locate owner and why it was thrown in garden. Altieri stonewalls.

12:07 Knox calls Meredith. No answer, ringing alerts Lana or children and the English phone is found.
12:08 Knox calls Filomena, gets postal police. Asked if she can go around to apartment to receive phone.
12:11 Knox calls Guede (number on yellow post it note) - no answer
12:11 Knox calls Meredith again. Phone now being transported to station by Lana and children, they don't answer.
12:12 Postal police call Knox using Filomena's phone. Tell them about 2nd phone being brought in. Knox suggests it might belong to Meredith
12:16 Postal police, having a bright idea, try calling Meredith's phone using the address book in Filomena's phone. Lana or children probably don't answer (if they weren't already in station)
12:20 Postal Police call Knox again and say they are on their way and tell them about calling Meredith's phone (answered or not).
12:34 Postal police call Knox and say they can't find apartment. Knox and Sollecito come out onto the road.
12:36 CCTV captures Fiat Punto in entrance of carpark
12:40 Knox rings Altieri using number stored in Filomena's phone. Altieri rings Zaroli in alarm. Zaroli rings his girlfriend to get Filomena back immediately. Both Zaroli and Altieri rush to the house
12:52. After consulting family members Knox and Sollecito call real police
13:00 Filomena arrives and demands door gets broken down
~13:30 Filomena rings lawyer for help, he suggests saying she gave her phone to Kercher. Filomena sees the number on post-it note and suggests that could be the call to Kercher's "Italian" phone.

4th or 5th of November. Guede is traced to Kindergarten in Milan by phone signal. Phone confiscated to become evidence: Meredith's Italian phone. Kitchen knife, hammer, cocaine and laptop placed in backpack

early am 6 November. Knox names wrong black guy. Guede released later that day.

The only puzzle is why the postal police made up the toilet bomb hoax, because the narratives works just as well if they had Meredith's Italian phone overnight in the station. I think perhaps they were so nervous about their 11:00 am conversations with Altieri, they wanted it to be absolutely clear that no phones arrived at the station until 11:30

Quite unnecessarily, because the calls they were worried about looked on paper just normal calls between Filomena and her boyfriend

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6lW1FbSHXA
 
Not all shoes are made on the mass market. I bought a pair of handmade leather sandals when I was in Jericho, Israel/Palestine - for which it's famous - which I doubt would be easily researched by any forensics team, were I to leave a footprint with them.

They are not mass market and therefore would not have mass market shoe prints.
 
I just noticed something. This case is over. (Spoiler Alert. Sorry.)

Okay, Bill / Grinder are right.

• Frank Sfarzo was beaten by these brutes. (Needs fruition.)

• A Killer may get out: Rudy Hermann Guede. (Needs to not.)

• This tragic Murder / Frame job maybe *the* catalyst which jumpstarts the Internet to start self-policing itself. (Wouldn't that be cool? And you heard it here first, on Roller-Derby)


• • • • • • • •

Vixen, what is zugswang? ("zoogz • väng") Even little kids understand this chess Endgame concept.

You used the [Italian] term Giuoco Piano (quiet game). Pronounce it, please.
 
They are not mass market and therefore would not have mass market shoe prints.

Right....a middle class college kid who is working for next to nothing and clearly doesn't care much about fashion is buying hand made shoes....sheesh.

The dancing speculation is amazing.
 
More from Filomena on the 2nd:

"I got a call from Amanda asking me if I knew anything that had come to our house and there was blood in his bathroom, while the front door appeared open. Immediacy not alarmed me greatly, because at first I thought that the girls had left the door open. Anyway I asked Amanda to do a check of the house and let me know if there was something wrong. From this moment on, I can not say for sure if she called me before Amanda or if it was me calling her because they in succession many phone calls between us."

Nencini's idiotic meme (picked up from the even dumber Mignini?) that Filomena had 1 minute "dropped calls" to Amanda demolished in a single blow.

My timeline of the morning of the 2nd is now pretty solid IMO:

~11:00ish Amanda arrives at the cottage to take a shower and get ready for the road trip and is slightly alarmed by the open door and blood and crap in the toilet.

~11:30 Amanda arrives back at Raffs. She mops up the kitchen floor from the broken pipe while he makes breakfast.

~12:00 During breakfast Amanda tells Raff about the strange things she noticed at the cottage. Raff says she should just ask one of her roommates.

12:07 Amanda calls Meredith, gets no answer

12:08 Amanda calls Filomena and asks if she knows anything going on at the cottage, Filomena says no and tells Amanda to asks Meredith.

12:11 This time Amanda tries Meredith's Italian phone, no answer

12:11 She tries the UK phone again no answer

12:12 Filomena calls back, this was probably Filomena telling Amanda she just remembered Laura is out of town, Amanda probably tells her Meredith isn't picking up her phone.

12:16 Filomena calls Meredith's UK phone

12:20 Amanda is waiting for Raff to finish getting ready, she checks gmail on his computer. (Perugia Shock)

12:20 Filomena calls Amanda again and asks her what she sees at the cottage, Amanda tells her has not even yet left the house.

12:22 Amanda checks her friends facebook page after getting off the phone with Filomena

~12:24 Raff is ready and they leave for the cottage

~12:30 Amanda and Raff arrive at the cottage. Within minutes they discover Filomena's room has a break-in

12:34 Filomena calls, Amanda tells her about the break-in, she says she's on her way home

12:35 Raff uses his phone to recharge his minutes

12:38 Raff gets a notification of new minutes on his phone

12:40 Raff gets a call from his father

12:40 Filomena calls her boyfriend and tells him to meet her at the cottage, if he arrives first to call the police

~12:45 Raff and Amanda have tried busting open Meredith's door and peeking in from the balcony.

12:47 Amanda calls her mom, presumably while waiting for Filomena to arrive. Amanda's mom tells her to call the police, she relays this to Raff.

12:50 Raff calls his sister, a police officer, for advice, she says to call the emergency number

12:51 Raff calls the emergency number and reports the break-in

12:55 The call to the police ends

12:55 Amanda and Raff go outside and wait for the police and Filomena to arrive

~12:57 The postal police find the two students waiting outside.

A far preferable timeline to one which invents calls from the postals to Amanda. The challenge is for someone who doubts this to come up with one of their own that does not skew the evidence.

"~12:57 The postal police find the two students waiting outside" at least has the merit of agreeing with what Judge Massei wrote. Apparently Massei believed it was not crucial to believe Battistelli about the time of their arrival, and Massei conceded that the CCTV time-stamp was unreliable. All these beliefs - so it is implied - do not get in the way of a "Amanda and Raffaele made a last-second choice for evil" the night before because, afterall, Massei convicted them.
 
The Raff DNA was NOT low copy. The external third party witnesses - contrary to your assertions - are not irrelevant to what was going on in the cottage.

If your "grasp of statistics is better" than mine, I'm surprised you have never acknowledged that I am indeed correct that game theory is probability theory. If you recall, you announced on the forum game theory had nothing to do with probability theory.
How would you know you have a better grasp of statistics? That sounds like an entirely fatuous claim. It is laughable.

Game theory is not a subset of statistics. Game theory mostly involves deterministic games with rational players. Thus checkers would be played by game theorists and roulette by irrational statisticians. Game theory mostly involves set theory, vector analysis, graphing theory and geometry/topology; not statistics. That you think game theory is just statistics is what makes me think I have a better grasp of statistics than you.

Sollecito's DNA on the bra was low copy number. (Estimated as less than 200pg although Steffanoni never properly quantified the DNA.)

How do the external third party witnesses tell us what was going on in the flat? How do you resolve the contradiction of Popovic, Curatalo, and Kokomani seeing Knox and Sollecito outside of the flat for most of the evening with the requirement for them to be undertaking a prolonged period of harassment, assault, staging etc. inside the flat. How do you resolve the contradiction of the occupants of the broken down car and recovery vehicle hearing and seeing no activity?
 
Last edited:
I just noticed something. This case is over. (Spoiler Alert. Sorry.)
Okay, Bill / Grinder are right.

• Frank Sfarzo was beaten by these brutes. (Needs fruition.)

• A Killer may get out: Rudy Hermann Guede. (Needs to not.)

• This tragic Murder / Frame job maybe *the* catalyst which jumpstarts the Internet to start self-policing itself. (Wouldn't that be cool? And you heard it here first, on Roller-Derby)


• • • • • • • •

Vixen, what is zugswang? ("zoogz • väng") Even little kids understand this chess Endgame concept.

You used the [Italian] term Giuoco Piano (quiet game). Pronounce it, please.

No, No, no. . . .It can't be over :D
 
According to Vixen the prosecution is just taking a rest.

I think OJ Simpson murdered Nicole but a jury decided differently. As such, it is time to let it go. There are however methods in place to reverse wrongful convictions.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

ISF - Join now!

Every member here is approved by hand. No bots, no spam, just people who care about evidence and honest debate.

Membership is free!

Create your free account

Back
Top Bottom