Continuation Part 20: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Grinder]

AFAIK (and correct me if I'm wrong Grinder) but my understanding is that Grinder is open to the possibility of a second accomplice who would make a more probable candidate for the unexplained alleged semen stain. So you're accusing Grinder of covering up an article that supports his own theory

You are correct that I believe the defense shouldn't have put all their eggs in one basket. I am nonplussed that a drug dealer of the nationality of the drug gang of the area isn't more of a focus of both the prosecution and the defense. If the kids could be accomplices and leave nothing but the claimed DNA in the murder room on the bra, there is no reason why another accomplice couldn't have been there. Nothing about Koko makes sense.

But in a country that refers to people that complete three years of college as doctors instead of dropouts, nothing should surprise.

 

[bagels]

What a lot of co-incidences need to be overlooked to believe in the Lone Wolf scenario.


- Guede describing one of the intruders being blond, wearing a white woollen cap and jacket with the Norwegian flag on it - with precisely the same clothing being worn by a similar man at 5-6 am in Piazza Grimana

Edit: I just realized that this story broke in the times the same day Guede gave his statement to Mignini. I think it's Richard Owen doing what he has done this whole story, either making a narrative up based off what was coming from the police, or being fed bs by the police. It's best to ignore every article he ever wrote TBH.

 

[Bill Williams]

Maybe that should be the 5th uncanny coincidence for Lone Wolf Guede?

- he positioned the body of Meredith Kercher precisely on top of the semen stain on a pillow left by Giacomo Silenzi.

Thank God Dr Stefanoni and Dr Luca "I'll just take another look at my notes" Lalli were on hand to unravel the Ivorian's diabolical plot.

Can you provide a cite for this? No you cannot. Then again you post here not for dialogue, just so that you can put stuff in the thread which is your opinion, and you don't want to talk about it after that.

Lessee - what's another possibility. The lone wolf attacker, whose DNA was found inside the victim's genitals, left his own semen on the pillow. What's my cite for this? I have none. Judge Massei in his 2010 motivations report gives the judicial-reason (judicial truth?) why it did not need to be tested. Massei said that a presumed semen stain does not leave a date-stamp, so it would be no good to test it.

However, if it had been Sollecito's that I would be a guilter. If it had been Silenzi's THEN Massei might have had a point. If it had been Guede's then that would buttress a lone-attacker.

But no testing of it was presented in court. That is as much a failure of the court-process as it was of the investigation. Many (I'm not one) regard the failure to test to be part of a cover-up by the cops. However, on this point alone the Marasca-Bruno report is right to say that the whole case against AK and RS was a shambles, and inept from the beginning.

 

[acbytesla]

You are correct that I believe the defense shouldn't have put all their eggs in one basket.

Who says they did?

I am nonplussed that a drug dealer of the nationality of the drug gang of the area isn't more of a focus of both the prosecution and the defense.

Seems like out in left field to me. Despite what guilter nut jobs say there is nothing really that points to a drug related crime. (Other than Koko being in the area)

If the kids could be accomplices and leave nothing but the claimed DNA in the murder room on the bra, there is no reason why another accomplice couldn't have been there.

Absolutely. Still, the juxtaposition of the true mountain of evidence implicating one person does make a compelling case for a fair jury.

Nothing about Koko makes sense.

That's a fact. In this puzzle, he is the oddest piece.

 

[Bill Williams]

You are correct that I believe the defense shouldn't have put all their eggs in one basket.

Who says they did?

"The defence" took many forms. Indeed, "the defence" was criticized at the 2009 trial for NOT putting their eggs all in one basket. So much so that even Barbie Nadeau said in Dec 2009 the night of the first conviction, "The case against the pair was weak, but the defence was weaker."

It was during the Hellmann trial (the first acquittal) when they arguably DID put all their eggs in one basket; Bongiorno at closing said a lot about Knox (like Jessica Rabbit, she's not a bad person, she's just drawn that way), not just about her client Raffaele.

Then after the Nencini re-conviction, Bongiorno crafted the separation strategy. That can hardly be called, "putting all their eggs in one basket."!!!

Re: Jessica Rabbit. In Winterbottom's film, the "Knox" character was called "Jessica". Coincidence? I think not. I think despite the failure of the film, between Winterbottom and screenwriter Viragh, they though the whole case against the pair to be bogus.

 

[Grinder]

Who says they did?

Can you refer me to the defense making a case other than lone-wolf. Did they ever point out that koko was there two night in row and ran off to Albania after the criome?

Seems like out in left field to me. Despite what guilter nut jobs say there is nothing really that points to a drug related crime. (Other than Koko being in the area)

The area was known as a drug place. Curatolo dealt smack in the plaza. IIRC paraphernalia was often found around the cottage. Koko is Albanian and the Albanians ran the drug biz there. Koko and Rudi had worked at the same place.

Absolutely. Still, the juxtaposition of the true mountain of evidence implicating one person does make a compelling case for a fair jury.
That's a fact. In this puzzle, he is the oddest piece.

As my original point remains, the defense didn't say "what about him?"

 

[Grinder]

"The defence" took many forms. Indeed, "the defence" was criticized at the 2009 trial for NOT putting their eggs all in one basket. So much so that even Barbie Nadeau said in Dec 2009 the night of the first conviction, "The case against the pair was weak, but the defence was weaker."

Really she said that? She didn't say they should have pushed the LW theory more.

It was during the Hellmann trial (the first acquittal) when they arguably DID put all their eggs in one basket; Bongiorno at closing said a lot about Knox (like Jessica Rabbit, she's not a bad person, she's just drawn that way), not just about her client Raffaele.

Then after the Nencini re-conviction, Bongiorno crafted the separation strategy. That can hardly be called, "putting all their eggs in one basket."!!!

Did she mention Koko as an accomplice?

They never strayed from the LW theory. Bongiorno did at times separate RS from AK.

 

[Bill Williams]

"The defence" took many forms. Indeed, "the defence" was criticized at the 2009 trial for NOT putting their eggs all in one basket. So much so that even Barbie Nadeau said in Dec 2009 the night of the first conviction, "The case against the pair was weak, but the defence was weaker."

Really she said that? She didn't say they should have pushed the LW theory more.

For the life of me, I cannot recall Nadeau saying anything about a LW theory.

Did she mention Koko as an accomplice?

Not that I can recall.

They never strayed from the LW theory. Bongiorno did at times separate RS from AK.

I can only remember once reading something from one of Knox's lawyers, which amounted to what Hellmann said in his motivations report: (paraphrase) "On the issue of more than one attacker, all this court was required to rule was if AK and RS were those attackers. Otherwise, we did not need to inquire into it." Otherwise, this may have been a one-off from that lawyer but that's all I can recall.

Yes, Bongiorno was very good at distinguishing the "case against Knox" as opposed to "the case against Sollecito." Guilters love to make it seem like Raffaele threw Amanda under a bus, but that never was what Bongiorno did. The separation strategy was simply, "you cannot use evidence against Knox, however tenuous, as if it has something to do with my client."

 

[acbytesla]

Can you refer me to the defense making a case other than lone-wolf. Did they ever point out that koko was there two night in row and ran off to Albania after the criome?

I don't know. Didn't they? I haven't read everything.There was a lot of testimony that hadn't been translated.

The area was known as a drug place. Curatolo dealt smack in the plaza. IIRC paraphernalia was often found around the cottage. Koko is Albanian and the Albanians ran the drug biz there. Koko and Rudi had worked at the same place.

You could say all of Perugia was a known drug place. And Meredith wasn't shot in the head. She was sexually assaulted and stabbed. Doesn't seem all that drug related to me. I think it is possible that Koko was the wheel man for Rudy...and may be the intent was to rob the boys downstairs of their drugs and Rudy went off script. That seems very possible. As I agreed with you, Koko definitely seems as if he could have been involved. He definitely has a stronger connection to Rudy than either defendant.

 

[bagels]

This is from Filomena's testimony from the day of the discovery (the 2nd):

Google translate:

"In fact, by phone Amanda told me that she noticed that the window my bedroom was broken and my clothes had been thrown across the ground, so I told her to expect that I would be as soon as possible. In the meantime, I called my boyfriend Marco, to tell him that there were thieves and I was stuck in the fair traffic, then join me there and if it came before thinking him to warn the police, as in fact happened. Upon my arrival with Paola, I found my home Mark, Luke, Amanda, Raffaele and two police agents."

This fits with her 12:40 call to Marco after her 12:34 call to Amanda. Filomena doesn't mention anything to Amanda about calling the police, instead she seems to be telling her boyfriend if he gets there first to call the police. She must have wanted a native Italian speaker dealing with the police? At any rate this is the earliest testimony from events that transpired within hours, which is to me the most accurate. It kills the meme floating around for years that she told Amanda to call the police and Amanda said she already had.

 

[Grinder]

Bill here is one Barbie snip- The high court adamantly dismissed the defense theory that Guede acted alone. In their reasoning, they pointed to the fact that Kercher suffered more than 40 knife wounds and lesions to her body, including handprint bruises from what appeared to be different-sized hands and tiny knife pricks on her palms, as if she were protecting herself from a taunting knife.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill here is one Barbie snip- The high court adamantly dismissed the defense theory that Guede acted alone. In their reasoning, they pointed to the fact that Kercher suffered more than 40 knife wounds and lesions to her body, including handprint bruises from what appeared to be different-sized hands and tiny knife pricks on her palms, as if she were protecting herself from a taunting knife.

Is this from the Massei trial or the Marasca/Bruno acquittals? Does that represent her own opinion, or her citation of the court's opinion?

 

[bagels]

More from Filomena on the 2nd:

"I got a call from Amanda asking me if I knew anything that had come to our house and there was blood in his bathroom, while the front door appeared open. Immediacy not alarmed me greatly, because at first I thought that the girls had left the door open. Anyway I asked Amanda to do a check of the house and let me know if there was something wrong. From this moment on, I can not say for sure if she called me before Amanda or if it was me calling her because they in succession many phone calls between us."

Nencini's idiotic meme (picked up from the even dumber Mignini?) that Filomena had 1 minute "dropped calls" to Amanda demolished in a single blow.

My timeline of the morning of the 2nd is now pretty solid IMO:

~11:00ish Amanda arrives at the cottage to take a shower and get ready for the road trip and is slightly alarmed by the open door and blood and crap in the toilet.

~11:30 Amanda arrives back at Raffs. She mops up the kitchen floor from the broken pipe while he makes breakfast.

~12:00 During breakfast Amanda tells Raff about the strange things she noticed at the cottage. Raff says she should just ask one of her roommates.

12:07 Amanda calls Meredith, gets no answer

12:08 Amanda calls Filomena and asks if she knows anything going on at the cottage, Filomena says no and tells Amanda to asks Meredith.

12:11 This time Amanda tries Meredith's Italian phone, no answer

12:11 She tries the UK phone again no answer

12:12 Filomena calls back, this was probably Filomena telling Amanda she just remembered Laura is out of town, Amanda probably tells her Meredith isn't picking up her phone.

12:16 Filomena calls Meredith's UK phone

12:20 Amanda is waiting for Raff to finish getting ready, she checks gmail on his computer. (Perugia Shock)

12:20 Filomena calls Amanda again and asks her what she sees at the cottage, Amanda tells her has not even yet left the house.

12:22 Amanda checks her friends facebook page after getting off the phone with Filomena

~12:24 Raff is ready and they leave for the cottage

~12:30 Amanda and Raff arrive at the cottage. Within minutes they discover Filomena's room has a break-in

12:34 Filomena calls, Amanda tells her about the break-in, she says she's on her way home

12:35 Raff uses his phone to recharge his minutes

12:38 Raff gets a notification of new minutes on his phone

12:40 Raff gets a call from his father

12:40 Filomena calls her boyfriend and tells him to meet her at the cottage, if he arrives first to call the police

~12:45 Raff and Amanda have tried busting open Meredith's door and peeking in from the balcony.

12:47 Amanda calls her mom, presumably while waiting for Filomena to arrive. Amanda's mom tells her to call the police, she relays this to Raff.

12:50 Raff calls his sister, a police officer, for advice, she says to call the emergency number

12:51 Raff calls the emergency number and reports the break-in

12:55 The call to the police ends

12:55 Amanda and Raff go outside and wait for the police and Filomena to arrive

~12:57 The postal police find the two students waiting outside.

 

[bagels]

The morning appears to me to be an extremely precise chain of events, well documented and corroborated, that show a slow realization of what's been going on at the cottage, at first nobody is very concerned, and then the concern grows.

If it is all staged, Amanda has pulled it off brilliantly.

 

[Grinder]

Is this from the Massei trial or the Marasca/Bruno acquittals? Does that represent her own opinion, or her citation of the court's opinion?

The quote was to demonstrate the defense theory of the lone wolf. She doesn't say one of the defense theories. AFAIK the defense used the LW theory as their number one defense. I don't remember them ever saying that there is as much evidence of Kokomani taking part as of the kids taking part.

The support PIP certainly still to this day pump the LW. Nina wrote a book trying to back that theory.

 

[Bill Williams]

The quote was to demonstrate the defense theory of the lone wolf. She doesn't say one of the defense theories. AFAIK the defense used the LW theory as their number one defense. I don't remember them ever saying that there is as much evidence of Kokomani taking part as of the kids taking part.

The support PIP certainly still to this day pump the LW. Nina wrote a book trying to back that theory.

It's completely understandable why the/a defence would push a lone wolf theory. At this point nearly a year after definitive acquittals, is perhaps the time to prove the issue once and for all. No one's liberty is on the line.

From what little I know, I'd have no reason at this point to doubt Burleigh's thesis. Mainly because there's nothing about the original tragedy that cannot be explained by a lone wolf.

 

[Bill Williams]

The morning appears to me to be an extremely precise chain of events, well documented and corroborated, that show a slow realization of what's been going on at the cottage, at first nobody is very concerned, and then the concern grows.

If it is all staged, Amanda has pulled it off brilliantly.

All this is made all the more bizarre when one considers that it was Amanda herself who was the first to call attention to the cottage. There is no "Amanda is guilty" scenario which can explain it. Indeed, a guilter meme has always been that AK and RS were caught unawares, perhaps even mid-clean up by the postals.

Or that AK and RS were trying to control the progressive revealing of what the tragedy really was.

 

[bagels]

BTW Grinder this might be of interest to you, I am going over a lot of the depositions and Koko gave his address as "Via S Matteo, Perugia, Italy"

On google maps this is far north of the city proper, and the closest road to take to get there from the cottage crossed over Ponte Rio...that has the tower the 22:13 call used

 

[bagels]

All this is made all the more bizarre when one considers that it was Amanda herself who was the first to call attention to the cottage. There is no "Amanda is guilty" scenario which can explain it. Indeed, a guilter meme has always been that AK and RS were caught unawares, perhaps even mid-clean up by the postals.

Or that AK and RS were trying to control the progressive revealing of what the tragedy really was.

The theory goes Amanda wanted Filomena to be the one who called the police to discover the body so the spotlight would be on her. Except the police would ask Filomena the circumstances of her discovering the cottage scene and Filomena would tell them Amanda told her she had been there and to check it out, and then Amanda would look guilty for running off

 

[bagels]

~21:30 Koko gives Rudy a ride to Koko's place where Rudy cleans up and changes pants and dumps knife.

(20 minutes ride)

~22:00 Koko drives Rudy back into town, Rudy messes with Meredith's phones in the car

~22:13 Incoming text Rudy cancels, pings Ponte Rio tower, Koko and Rudy would be driving on Ponte Rio for most of this ride.

~22:20 Koko drops Rudy off in front of the entrance to the park that goes back to the gate to Rudy's house. Rudy dumps the phones across the street into Lana's garden and walks up into the park home.

Possible I suppose