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Continuation Part 20: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Maybe to have one last crack at that "even-if" stuff, as in, "even if the prosecution facts were true, they'd still be innocent," stuff.....

It's like saying that in mid-game, that I had managed to control the centre of the board and had your Queen pinned. Yet you managed a skillful sacrifice of a rook, and the next thing I knew you had promoted a pawn to another Queen and three moves later my King was begging for mercy.....

The "motivation report" written by post-game prognosticators would be something like, "even though he'd proven himself skillful by mid-game with a strong and patient attack, a fatal flaw in the player's reasoning allowed his opponent to come back. The mid-game-position which seemed secure and unassailable, was in fact a house of cards once the sacrifice was made."

Me, I'd still claim it was genius to get you in the faux-stranglehold at mid-game. Like PGP commentators here, I'd avoid like the plague mentioning that I'd lost.


That was a rather rash Black Italian opening there, to my sharp Giuoco Piano. I'll raise my Scotch Gambit to your Sicilian.

Don't surround yourself with yourself. Move on back two squares.

Bruno and Marasca were a couple of Patzers playing a Deferred Schliemann which leads us into the Ruy Lopez variations of Rudy agitating for a retrial.
 
What part of "there is NO evidence of AK and RS in the murder room" as per the B/M report are you struggling with?

Some things are difficult for some posters to grasp.

There is nothing, except the testimony of 1 out of 8 experts to suggest there had to be more than one assailant. I see no reason to doubt the other 7.
 
That was a rather rash Black Italian opening there, to my sharp Giuoco Piano. I'll raise my Scotch Gambit to your Sicilian.

Don't surround yourself with yourself. Move on back two squares.

Bruno and Marasca were a couple of Patzers playing a Deferred Schliemann which leads us into the Ruy Lopez variations of Rudy agitating for a retrial.

My opinion only. Rudy would not fare well at a re-trial, assuming that is even possible. Yet, if in some imaged-way Rudy had been wrongfully convicted, and Cassazione had wrongfully made the conviction definitive, there has to be some mechanism to address it, with at least the possibility of reversing what once was definitive.

It does not work the other way. Once an acquittal is definitive, double jeopardy kicks in.

There's also the issue of what Raffaele would do if people start defaming him. Rudy would do well to serve his time as per Italian law and get on with life.
 
I would be happy is Guede simply "Sins No More". . . . .No more murders, rapes, or robberies. I don't care so much about the religious definition of sin.
 
Some things are difficult for some posters to grasp.

There is nothing, except the testimony of 1 out of 8 experts to suggest there had to be more than one assailant. I see no reason to doubt the other 7.

Did nothing sink in? Machiavelli explained that evidence is to do with quality not quantity.

None of those eight ruled out multiple attackers.

It's as if you are a recording machine unable to change the tape.
 
Vixen said:
There is a ladies sized 37 footprint in blood in the murder room.

What part of "there is NO evidence of AK and RS in the murder room" as per the B/M report are you struggling with?

Judge Massei has a full discussion on the prints found at the cottage, from page 354ff. There is no mention of such a print found, "in the murder room."

A quick read shows that the size 37 shoe can only be used "for negative purposes", meaning, that in some of the places it was found can only, "not rule out Amanda Knox," rather than prove she was there. But the "there" in the quick read is the hallway, not the room.

There's a complete listing of the shoes tested. In grand suspect-centrism, a quick read shows that only Amanda's shoes were taken - women's shoes that is.

If I am reading Massei correctly - and I assume you'll let me know if I am not, the size 37's were found in the hallway and were exhibits 71 and 73. Exhibits 86, 87 and 88 are the ones found in the murder room.

These exhibits refer to Rudy's presumed Nikes Outbreak 2 (size 11) which were never found, but which the forensic people bought an exact duplicate pair. They were a match for the three exhibits found on the murder room.

Once again, correct me if I have this wrong. There was no "size 37 women's shoe" found in Meredith's room.
 
My opinion only. Rudy would not fare well at a re-trial, assuming that is even possible. Yet, if in some imaged-way Rudy had been wrongfully convicted, and Cassazione had wrongfully made the conviction definitive, there has to be some mechanism to address it, with at least the possibility of reversing what once was definitive.

It does not work the other way. Once an acquittal is definitive, double jeopardy kicks in.

There's also the issue of what Raffaele would do if people start defaming him. Rudy would do well to serve his time as per Italian law and get on with life.

However, this was not definitive, it was "insufficient evidence" = get sufficient evidence and come back.

All Rudy did was quote Bruno-Marasca. As they are the law, there is no libel there, contrary to what your chum "Mike" would have us believe.

It is a legal fact, Rudy was an accessory to murder in consort with Amanda and Raff, according to Judge Micheli. According to Judge Massei, Amanda caused the fatal injury. No court has decreed Rudy did it alone or inflicted the fatal injury.

So, a judicial review, as being pressed for by the Viterbo criminology unit is a distinct possibility.
 
If a judge makes a ruling, it doesn't matter how crap his reasoning, if he or she says, say, you are now divorced, or bankrupt, then - tough titty - that's now a legal fact.

Hilarious. Divorce and bankruptcy are legal decrees. It is the result of a legal process and it is imposed by the court. It has nothing to do with empirical evidence being accurate and reliable, and it has nothing to do with the interpretation of that evidence being correct or incorrect, in order to infer probability of an event having occurred in the past.

Legal fact is NOT THE SAME THING as empirical/actual fact. Courts can make mistakes Vixen. We understand that (some of) the lower courts found them guilty. We also understand that the highest court in Italy found them not guilty/innocent. We also understand that the EMPIRICAL FACT (based on all of the evidence available) is that they were not in the house when Rudy murdered Meredith. This is different than the legal facts found by Massei and Nencini. It is the same as that found by Hellman and the highest court in Italy. The court that has precedence and authority over Massei and Nencini.

Bruno-Marasca acquitted the kids for reasons other than facts found, being "flawed investigation" and "too much media attention". They did not find the pair "innocent" nor "exonerated", they simply dropped the charges, using a lower court toolkit of Section 530 para 2, of "insufficient evidence". There is no statute of limitations on murder, so the kids can be tried again if new evidence comes to light.

I mean, even giving you all of this and assuming you are right about the interpretation of BM, you DO understand that if there is "insufficient evidence" to infer guilt then not guilty/innocent is the correct conclusion, right? You don't get to start with an assumption of guilty, you have to prove guilt based on evidence.

(I know you don't actually understand this, and trust me when I say this is truly mind-boggling.)

Bruno-Marasca decreed the pair's connection to the crime is "strongly suspicious".

Legal fact.

WTF. How is an opinion in a report a "legal fact". This is nonsense. You just make things up as you go. It's amazing, actually.

(And anyway, they only said their connection was strongly suspicious in context of one small piece of evidence. When you incorporate all of the evidence of innocence and the fact Rudy painted the murder room with only evidence of him it is obvious Amanda and Raf are innocent and there is "insufficient evidence" to convict them. Which is exactly what BM said at the end.)
 
Vixen not even the judge that changed Curatolo's testimony and forgot to establish if anywhere at anytime a murder knife was tested and DNA of the victim was found but no blood at all, concluded the partial shoe print from Rudi was Amanda's. The incompetent boobs never found a shoe to match the prints after searching far and wide, not even in Amanda's closet.

The purpose of the investigation of merchants and shoe manufacturers was not to propose the ASICS as the shoe that produced the print in question; the objective, more modestly, was simply to indicate how the dimensions of the print (held to be sufficiently complete and not merely partial) were in themselves comparable to women’s shoes available on the market, with the consequence of providing support for the hypothesis of two types of footwear at the murder scene, above all Rudy Guede’s indisputably identified shoe, and, on the other hand, a woman’s shoe, whose dimensions, being indicated as between size 36 and size 38, are compatible with Amanda Knox’s shoe size, which is size 37.
With respect to Boemia's professional opinion, Professor Vinci, who is Raffaele Sollecito's technical consultant and who performed an in-depth study of the print in photo 105 as well as other studies on different matters, holds a contrary opinion.
Vinci’s report arrived at a completely different conclusion from that of Forensics. Comparing the sole of the right shoe of Guede’s Nike Outbreak model 2s with the enlargement of the 105 print found on Meredith’s pillow (cf. tables of the technical report), the expert witness reconciles imprint 105 with the pattern on the sole of Guede’s right shoe.
The print would therefore have been left by the co-accused’s *=Rudy’s+ second shod foot, namely the right one [shoe] (the arc-like elements being indicated as
344
corresponding to the homologous elements of the pattern on the anterior part of the right shoe, [368] in effect abandoning the methodical approach of Forensics, who want to attribute the print [as being] the part [of the foot] positioned near the heel rather than to that [part from] the forefoot) , with the result of excluding from the murder scene the presence of a co-participant who necessarily would have worn a small-size shoe, in considering the dimensions of print 105 as fully complete.
The Court, on this point, takes notice of the opposing conclusions without expressing a specific opinion. It cannot in fact be excluded that Guede alone tread on the cushion lying on the floor, to the exclusion of Knox (the smaller dimensions of the right foot can be explained by the characteristics of the underlying surface, the pillow, having a non-rigid structure and where the material of the pillow-slip may have been not perfectly straightened out, but, on the contrary, soft and as such determining the curvature), to whom [=Knox], actually, one [must] attribute moving herself about the murder scene essentially in bare feet, as shown in the part of the report that examines the genetic investigations that were done on certain biological traces and the positive Luminol prints.


The police weren't looking for shoes that matched. Just basic dimensions. These are alleged to be experts but they don't know the basic ratios of shoe sizes? No prosecution expert showed or Vinci was wrong. Also, the question is raised: If Amanda's shoes (or any woman's) left the print on the pillow where else did the print show up? Nowhere.

I'm moving to the latest Italian fiasco and I now believe Meredith committed suicide and the footprint was hers.
 
Judge Massei has a full discussion on the prints found at the cottage, from page 354ff. There is no mention of such a print found, "in the murder room."

A quick read shows that the size 37 shoe can only be used "for negative purposes", meaning, that in some of the places it was found can only, "not rule out Amanda Knox," rather than prove she was there. But the "there" in the quick read is the hallway, not the room.

There's a complete listing of the shoes tested. In grand suspect-centrism, a quick read shows that only Amanda's shoes were taken - women's shoes that is.

If I am reading Massei correctly - and I assume you'll let me know if I am not, the size 37's were found in the hallway and were exhibits 71 and 73. Exhibits 86, 87 and 88 are the ones found in the murder room.

These exhibits refer to Rudy's presumed Nikes Outbreak 2 (size 11) which were never found, but which the forensic people bought an exact duplicate pair. They were a match for the three exhibits found on the murder room.

Once again, correct me if I have this wrong. There was no "size 37 women's shoe" found in Meredith's room.

Wrong Bill. Read my post.
 
Did nothing sink in? Machiavelli explained that evidence is to do with quality not quantity.

None of those eight ruled out multiple attackers.

It's as if you are a recording machine unable to change the tape.

It's a good tape.

Machiavelli's explanation was absurd. The single opinion is not any more qualitative than the 7 others. In fact, it is less so. It is not supported by the evidence. There are only a single set of footprints in Meredith's blood. The claim that there is a woman's shoe print does not hold up to scrutiny.

There is no evidence linking Rudy to Amanda or Raffaele.. All I ever hear from you, Machiavelli and other guilters are explanations that are not supported by the evidence. Wild speculations following wild speculations following poor logic.
 
Bill Williams said:
Judge Massei has a full discussion on the prints found at the cottage, from page 354ff. There is no mention of such a print found, "in the murder room."

A quick read shows that the size 37 shoe can only be used "for negative purposes", meaning, that in some of the places it was found can only, "not rule out Amanda Knox," rather than prove she was there. But the "there" in the quick read is the hallway, not the room.

There's a complete listing of the shoes tested. In grand suspect-centrism, a quick read shows that only Amanda's shoes were taken - women's shoes that is.

If I am reading Massei correctly - and I assume you'll let me know if I am not, the size 37's were found in the hallway and were exhibits 71 and 73. Exhibits 86, 87 and 88 are the ones found in the murder room.

These exhibits refer to Rudy's presumed Nikes Outbreak 2 (size 11) which were never found, but which the forensic people bought an exact duplicate pair. They were a match for the three exhibits found on the murder room.

Once again, correct me if I have this wrong. There was no "size 37 women's shoe" found in Meredith's room.
Wrong Bill. Read my post.

Not sure why it's "wrong", it is a skimmed summary of what Massei wrote in pages 354ff.

If what is outstanding is about the pillow-show-print, nowhere can I see that Massei id's it as soecfically a size-37 women's shoe..... which is perhaps the point you are making in your post. He says he comes to no conclusion.

What you're focussing on is Massei's discussion on Inspector Boemia's thesis that the print on the pillow was a women's ASICS. Massei had already listed Knox's shoes as Skechers size 7 (37 cm). What was "found" by Inspector Boemia was a size 36-38 women's ASICS, and about this Judge Massei concludes:

The Court, on this point, takes notice of the opposing conclusions without expressing a specific opinion. It cannot in fact be excluded that Guede alone tread on the cushion lying on the floor, to the exclusion of Knox (the smaller dimensions of the right foot can be explained by the characteristics of the underlying surface, the pillow, having a non-rigid structure and where the material of the pillow-slip may have been not perfectly straightened out, but, on the contrary, soft and as such determining the curvature), to whom [=Knox], actually, one [must] attribute moving herself about the murder scene essentially in bare feet, as shown in the part of the report that examines the genetic investigations that were done on certain biological traces and the positive Luminol prints.​

The strangest part of the way Massei describes it all, is that the pliable nature of the receiving medium (the pillowcase) needs to be pliable or else it's not a 37.... and once again, Massei does not keep his own counsel in the difference between evidence that cannot rule people out, versus ruling them in.
 
Vixen is unable to change tapes. The "ladies size 37 footprint" is self evidently from Rudy's Nike outbreaks:

cpycqQa.jpg


To not see the obvious I think is self delusion bordering on impairment.

The prosecution "expert" got the ladies size because the shoeprint overlaps itself from stepping in the same general area twice, and he used one of the border lines as the opposite border line for the other.
 
It's a good tape.

Machiavelli's explanation was absurd. The single opinion is not any more qualitative than the 7 others. In fact, it is less so. It is not supported by the evidence. There are only a single set of footprints in Meredith's blood. The claim that there is a woman's shoe print does not hold up to scrutiny.

There is no evidence linking Rudy to Amanda or Raffaele.. All I ever hear from you, Machiavelli and other guilters are explanations that are not supported by the evidence. Wild speculations following wild speculations following poor logic.

Given Machiavelli's recent declaration that he's not interested in conclusions, just facts, then he should then agree with you AC.
 
Of course I conceded that Amanda Knox might be wearing shoes with identical tread patterns curving out at identical ratios stepping in the same spot as Rudy at the same time.

To the PGP's credit they searched far and wide and managed to find a pair of women's Nike's (that Amanda was never known to have) that had a similar concentric tread pattern, but it had completely different ratios of curving and lacked that sharp corner on Rudy's, which is unfortunate for them because it removes all doubt whom the shoes belonged to. To hang on to entirely decimated evidence is just a bizarre trait of the PGP that they repeat over and over again with this case.
 
Anyway we were discussing the luminol before the recent interruption. One thing I did discover about one of the prints was that, assuming the prosecution's orientation of the prints is accurate (and I never fully count on that) the footprint matches perfectly with someone walking into Meredith's room coming from the direction of down the hall from the front side of the house, although I wouldn't rule out coming from the bathroom either it's slightly more awkward from that direction.

This print would tend to rule out the possibility that all the luminol prints were deposited by Amanda during her walk to and from the bathroom to her bedroom, unless she happened to step sideways in front of Meredith's door, which would be pretty unlikely.
 
Of course I conceded that Amanda Knox might be wearing shoes with identical tread patterns curving out at identical ratios stepping in the same spot as Rudy at the same time.

To the PGP's credit they searched far and wide and managed to find a pair of women's Nike's (that Amanda was never known to have) that had a similar concentric tread pattern, but it had completely different ratios of curving and lacked that sharp corner on Rudy's, which is unfortunate for them because it removes all doubt whom the shoes belonged to. To hang on to entirely decimated evidence is just a bizarre trait of the PGP that they repeat over and over again with this case.

Skimming Massei's report p. 354ff, in relation to Vixen's repetition of "Amanda's size 37's were found in the murder room," left me wondering if she is prepared for the implications of that.

Is Vixen also claiming AK changed shoes mid-participation?

Maybe, maybe not. But Inspector Boemia thought what he saw were women's ASICS . Isn't there ANYTHING which the remaining PGP can raise without causing another difficulty?
 
Bill why do you keep spewing out this misinformation? The Massei trial did indicate shoe prints of a woman's size 36-38 were found but not for sure considering Vinci's presentation. They never matched the ASICS nor did they try.

The purpose of the investigation of merchants and shoe manufacturers was not to propose the ASICS as the shoe that produced the print in question; the objective, more modestly, was simply to indicate how the dimensions of the print (held to be sufficiently complete and not merely partial) were in themselves comparable to women’s shoes available on the market, with the consequence of providing support for the hypothesis of two types of footwear at the murder scene, above all Rudy Guede’s indisputably identified shoe, and, on the other hand, a woman’s shoe, whose dimensions, being indicated as between size 36 and size 38, are compatible with Amanda Knox’s shoe size, which is size 37.
 
Bill why do you keep spewing out this misinformation? The Massei trial did indicate shoe prints of a woman's size 36-38 were found but not for sure considering Vinci's presentation. They never matched the ASICS nor did they try.

The purpose of the investigation of merchants and shoe manufacturers was not to propose the ASICS as the shoe that produced the print in question; the objective, more modestly, was simply to indicate how the dimensions of the print (held to be sufficiently complete and not merely partial) were in themselves comparable to women’s shoes available on the market, with the consequence of providing support for the hypothesis of two types of footwear at the murder scene, above all Rudy Guede’s indisputably identified shoe, and, on the other hand, a woman’s shoe, whose dimensions, being indicated as between size 36 and size 38, are compatible with Amanda Knox’s shoe size, which is size 37.

Huh!? I was quoting what Massei said from his MR report about Inspector Boemia's claim it was women's ASICs. You claim I'm presenting misinformation, then summarize almost exactly what was printed.

Massei refused to choose, as reprinted above. What's the big deal?
 
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