China Draws Sabre

[Childlike Empress]

 

[Beerina]

You're even more wrong now than you were then. China's GNP is currently roughly 60% of the US economy, and slowing. Which doesn't even make China look good, considering that China has 4 times the population of the US, and is already choking in it's own fumes.

The rest of your assertions are subjective opinions, but this one is mathematically wrong.

BTW, China tanks if it loses it's highly China-favorable US trade.

15 years ago I predicted the US could stop China from becoming too uppity by encouraging them to leap over laissez-faire capitalism and go straight to European-style heavy handed socialism to crush their economic power. India shows the way on this.

We have an even better, much more recent example: Ukraine/Crimea.

The Russians came, the Russians took, and I haven't seen anyone doing much about it.

China must feel fairly comfortable that their nation-expanding won't cause any kind of war.

Europe could do nothing to stop intra-European wars of conquest. Normally this is a good thing as having the backs of European nations broken, for anything major anyway, serves greater world peace. The US may whine about Europe not carrying its own weight in its defense, but that presumes the success of a larger goal which has already happened: no more European world wars.

Russia stuck its toe in, the US refused to get involved. Europe couldn't stop it. The response was sanctions and buttressing the rest of the Ukraine, which seems to have worked. But nobody thinks pure appeasement would have stopped Russia where it is.

 

[Jules Galen]

15 years ago I predicted the US could stop China from becoming too uppity by encouraging them to leap over laissez-faire capitalism and go straight to European-style heavy handed socialism to crush their economic power. India shows the way on this.

And China did neither. China did not adopt European-style socialism, nor did it adopt Laissez-faire Capitilism. Instead, China adopted a somewhat Capitilistic System under ultimate Government Authority. As a result, the government of China is still the ultimate authority in China - as opposed to Corporate Authority (which is the primary power in the US).

Hey...the last big movement for change in this country occupied Wall Street and not Washington....because we really know who is ultimately calling the shots.

 

[Toontown]

And China did neither. China did not adopt European-style socialism, nor did it adopt Laissez-faire Capitilism. Instead, China adopted a somewhat Capitilistic System under ultimate Government Authority. As a result, the government of China is still the ultimate authority in China - as opposed to Corporate Authority (which is the primary power in the US).

I remain unimpressed by China's presumed economic prowess and it's "somewhat Capitilistic System under ultimate Government Authority".

China is the world's most populous country and has plenty of resources. Therefore, all other things being equal, China should have the world's biggest economy. China's economy should be 4 times the size of the US economy.

But all other things are not equal. China is an underachieving country. And also a pain in the ass with it's constant currency manipulation, theft of intellectual property, and cyber attacks.

Mostly an example of what an advanced civilization would not be.

Hey...the last big movement for change in this country occupied Wall Street and not Washington....because we really know who is ultimately calling the shots.

That was hardly a "big movement for change". That was some people camping out in town. And if Wall Street was really calling the shots, the campers would have been forced to camp somewhere else.

 

[Jules Galen]

China is the world's most populous country and has plenty of resources. Therefore, all other things being equal, China should have the world's biggest economy. China's economy should be 4 times the size of the US economy.

But...all things are not equal. Maybe you should read a little bit of history and try to understand why China fell behind the West after having lead the world for 2000 Years. If you read some history, I think you will learn that China's present condition of playing "Catch-Up" is temporary (they are most likely going to regain the world's #1 Cultural Status very quickly now), and you might begin to understand China's antipathy towards the West (which I expect will fade away as they become even stronger).

Or...you can deny what is happening and miss witnessing perhaps the greatest Cultural/Societal/Economic transformations in Human History.

Seriously, the only people I've ever seen in history move so so far and at such speed are the Japanese - but even they will be outdone if China can keep up the pace over the next 10-20 years.

 

[Toontown]

Well, that will be great. If China doesn't render the earth uninhabitable in the process.

Trouble is, that's exactly where China is headed.

Refuses to do anything to control it's pollution. Cheats every way it can. Steals everything it can. Maintains an army of cyber attackers.

Yeah, we got us a great Cultural Revolution building up here. I'm so excited.

 

[Jules Galen]

Well, that will be great. If China doesn't render the earth uninhabitable in the process.

Trouble is, that's exactly where China is headed.

Refuses to do anything to control it's pollution. Cheats every way it can. Steals everything it can. Maintains an army of cyber attackers.

Yeah, we got us a great Cultural Revolution building up here. I'm so excited.

Nevertheless, you refuse to see the truth of the matter. The Chinese Government has elevated hundreds-of-millions of people out of poverty in the past 30 years and is continuing that trend. In the past 30 years, China has transformed from a Backwater to having the wealthiest economy in the world.

They have, among many things become the country with the following traits:

* Has the most skyscrapers
* Has the most highway
* Has the most high-speed rail
* World's largest Importer
* World's largest exporter
* Only country that will have 4G communications nationwide by 2018
* World's largest maker of automobiles
* World's largest market for automobiles
* Poured more concrete from 2012-2015 than America poured in the entire 100 years of the 20th century
* World's largest manufacturer of Electronics
* Has become the premeire provider of commercial sattellite launch services
* Has a working GPS System in Asia and the Western Pacific and will have a completed constellation of Sattellites in 2020
* Has four of the world's largest Banks
* Has started a New Bank - the AIIB - that is the equivalent of the World Bank.
* Has the largest holdings of Foreign Reserves
* Just approved $150 Billion Dollars for a 4-year plan to complete the Internet Infrastructure of the entire country by 2019.


Yeah....go ahead and ignore that....belittle the accomplishment if it helps you deal with the humiliation. But to pretend that China is some second-rate power is not only delusional....it borders on Dangerous.

Like it, or not, we are seeing the rise of the next World's Super-Power. Now, we can chose to work with it, or work against it. I don't see us getting into a shooting war with China - that would be suicide. But, I do see us being shut out of a good thing if we can't correct a lot of the knee-jerk anti-China attitudes in this country - or control the Bitterness associated with the fact that America's run as #1 has come to an end.

Ever since the World destroyed itself during World War 2, America has had it easy as the rest of the world was rebuilding from the carnage. In fact, America had it so easy that it forgot that its reign as Hyper-Power was an accident, and not some glorious achievement of its superior culture. But...think about it. If the world had not first killed all its young men and bankrupted itself (i.e., World War 1) and then finished the job by burning itself to the ground (i.e., World War 2) do you think America would have reigned as sole Hyper-Power all these years? Really?

 

[rjh01]

Nevertheless, you refuse to see the truth of the matter. The Chinese Government has elevated hundreds-of-millions of people out of poverty in the past 30 years and is continuing that trend. In the past 30 years, China has transformed from a Backwater to having the wealthiest economy in the world.

They have, among many things become the country with the following traits:

* Has the most skyscrapers
* Has the most highway
* Has the most high-speed rail
* World's largest Importer
* World's largest exporter
* Only country that will have 4G communications nationwide by 2018
* World's largest maker of automobiles
* World's largest market for automobiles
* Poured more concrete from 2012-2015 than America poured in the entire 100 years of the 20th century
* World's largest manufacturer of Electronics
* Has become the premeire provider of commercial sattellite launch services
* Has a working GPS System in Asia and the Western Pacific and will have a completed constellation of Sattellites in 2020
* Has four of the world's largest Banks
* Has started a New Bank - the AIIB - that is the equivalent of the World Bank.
* Has the largest holdings of Foreign Reserves
* Just approved $150 Billion Dollars for a 4-year plan to complete the Internet Infrastructure of the entire country by 2019.


Yeah....go ahead and ignore that....belittle the accomplishment if it helps you deal with the humiliation. But to pretend that China is some second-rate power is not only delusional....it borders on Dangerous.

Like it, or not, we are seeing the rise of the next World's Super-Power. Now, we can chose to work with it, or work against it. I don't see us getting into a shooting war with China - that would be suicide. But, I do see us being shut out of a good thing if we can't correct a lot of the knee-jerk anti-China attitudes in this country - or control the Bitterness associated with the fact that America's run as #1 has come to an end.

Ever since the World destroyed itself during World War 2, America has had it easy as the rest of the world was rebuilding from the carnage. In fact, America had it so easy that it forgot that its reign as Hyper-Power was an accident, and not some glorious achievement of its superior culture. But...think about it. If the world had not first killed all its young men and bankrupted itself (i.e., World War 1) and then finished the job by burning itself to the ground (i.e., World War 2) do you think America would have reigned as sole Hyper-Power all these years? Really?

All true. However none of which addresses either of the points Toontown raised
- Pollution
- Army of cyber attackers

Not to mention
- censorship of the Internet
- still a dictatorship
- GDP per person is still small.

Yes, China has a high GDP and everything that goes with it. That takes a lot of whatever it takes. But it also includes a massive population.

I also like your view on America as expressed in your last paragraph. What is worrying about that is that it no longer has the highest standard of living in the world. And the trend is down. It too, depends on having a large population to ensure that it remains as having the top GDP figure. I just wonder when it will cease to be number 1 (even ignoring China).

 

[Jules Galen]

All true. However none of which addresses either of the points Toontown raised
- Pollution
- Army of cyber attackers

Not to mention
- censorship of the Internet
- still a dictatorship
- GDP per person is still small.

Yes, China has a high GDP and everything that goes with it. That takes a lot of whatever it takes. But it also includes a massive population.

I also like your view on America as expressed in your last paragraph. What is worrying about that is that it no longer has the highest standard of living in the world. And the trend is down. It too, depends on having a large population to ensure that it remains as having the top GDP figure. I just wonder when it will cease to be number 1 (even ignoring China).

So...China has pollution. All growing economies are affected by it sooner or later and they will find a solution like we did - and the Japanese did - and the Europeans did.

Yes...China is also more authoritarian than we would like it to be and that is not going to change until....China feels safe. Considering the rampant colonialism that infected China for over 100 years, I am surprised that China is even as open as it has been.

I keep hearing about this Army of Cyber Attackers from China but one thing that seems to be absent is....Proof. Hadn't seen any proof that China is attacking us with some kind of Cyber Army. But...I have seen proof of America's Cyber Army - it's attacks and thievery. Maybe this is just America projecting its delusions on China...certainly seems like it.

On the other hand, China has been spying on the US for years - the good old-fashioned way. I have no doubt that a lot of Chinese businessmen in this country are government agents collecting information to send back to China.

On the bright side, China is not stupid. In 2014 the Vietnamese "taught them a lesson" about the stupidity of China drilling in Vietnam's territory. Did China over-react? No...they just let things cool down and left. In the end, both countries acted impressively: Vietnam was shrewed and cunning while China quickly realized that doubling-down on a mistaken policy was a dumb thing to do. Nobody died.

 

[Toontown]

Nevertheless, you refuse to see the truth of the matter. The Chinese Government has elevated hundreds-of-millions of people out of poverty in the past 30 years and is continuing that trend. In the past 30 years, China has transformed from a Backwater to having the wealthiest economy in the world.

They have, among many things become the country with the following traits:

* Has the most skyscrapers
* Has the most highway
* Has the most high-speed rail
* World's largest Importer
* World's largest exporter
* Only country that will have 4G communications nationwide by 2018
* World's largest maker of automobiles
* World's largest market for automobiles
* Poured more concrete from 2012-2015 than America poured in the entire 100 years of the 20th century
* World's largest manufacturer of Electronics
* Has become the premeire provider of commercial sattellite launch services
* Has a working GPS System in Asia and the Western Pacific and will have a completed constellation of Sattellites in 2020
* Has four of the world's largest Banks
* Has started a New Bank - the AIIB - that is the equivalent of the World Bank.
* Has the largest holdings of Foreign Reserves
* Just approved $150 Billion Dollars for a 4-year plan to complete the Internet Infrastructure of the entire country by 2019.


Yeah....go ahead and ignore that....belittle the accomplishment if it helps you deal with the humiliation. But to pretend that China is some second-rate power is not only delusional....it borders on Dangerous.

Like it, or not, we are seeing the rise of the next World's Super-Power. Now, we can chose to work with it, or work against it. I don't see us getting into a shooting war with China - that would be suicide. But, I do see us being shut out of a good thing if we can't correct a lot of the knee-jerk anti-China attitudes in this country - or control the Bitterness associated with the fact that America's run as #1 has come to an end.

Ever since the World destroyed itself during World War 2, America has had it easy as the rest of the world was rebuilding from the carnage. In fact, America had it so easy that it forgot that its reign as Hyper-Power was an accident, and not some glorious achievement of its superior culture. But...think about it. If the world had not first killed all its young men and bankrupted itself (i.e., World War 1) and then finished the job by burning itself to the ground (i.e., World War 2) do you think America would have reigned as sole Hyper-Power all these years? Really?

Excitable fellow, aren't you. Slapping down your money, betting on world domination by a non-innovative, overpopulated communist country.

You could be right, but I wouldn't bet on the 21st century favoring non-innovative, overpopulated communist countries. Not for long anyhow. But maybe China will transform.

Whatever. Doesn't matter to me. Barring the Everett interpretation of quantum mechanics, or something else equally wierd, I won't be around long enough to see the last best hope of communism be crowned Hyper-Power In The 21st and 1/2 Century!

 

[rjh01]

<snip>

I keep hearing about this Army of Cyber Attackers from China but one thing that seems to be absent is....Proof. Hadn't seen any proof that China is attacking us with some kind of Cyber Army. But...I have seen proof of America's Cyber Army - it's attacks and thievery. Maybe this is just America projecting its delusions on China...certainly seems like it.

I just wonder what sort of proof you would want? Mathematical proof do you? Sorry cannot give that to you. I can give you evidence from several sources saying that China is doing cyber attacks. There are plenty more if you do a simple google search.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-34333469

American officials have been making their views about Chinese state-sponsored cyber-espionage clear in the run up to this week's meetings.
"This isn't a mild irritation, it's an economic and national security concern to the United States," US national security adviser Susan Rice said.
"It puts enormous strain on our bilateral relationship, and it is a critical factor in determining the future trajectory of US-China ties."

http://www.forbes.com/sites/lisabro...advanced-persistent-and-ongoing/#1dc583191809

A high-level hacking group dubbed Iron Tiger has been observed stealing trillions of bytes of confidential data from the United States government, US defense contractors and related companies in the United States and abroad, security company Trend Micro reports in its research paper posted Tuesday, Operation Iron Tiger: Exploring Chinese Cyber Espionage Attacks on U.S. Defense Contractors.

http://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tech-ne...ks-u-s-companies-continue-report-says-n447016

The Irvine, California-based company, CrowdStrike, says it documented seven Chinese cyberattacks against U.S. technology and pharmaceuticals companies "where the primary benefit of the intrusions seems clearly aligned to facilitate theft of intellectual property and trade secrets, rather than to conduct traditional national security-related intelligence collection."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2015-12-02/china-blamed-for-cyber-attack-on-bureau-of-meteorology/6993278

China is being blamed for a major cyber attack on the computers at the Bureau of Meteorology, which has compromised sensitive systems across the Federal Government.
Multiple official sources have confirmed the recent attack, and the ABC has been told it will cost millions of dollars to plug the security breach, as other agencies have also been affected.

 

[Mader Levap]

communist country

China already is "communist" only in name (and occassional lip service) for decades. If it will not become superpower, it will be for different reason than it's economic system.

For that reason lines spouted by you like "see the last best hope of communism be crowned Hyper-Power In The 21st and 1/2 Century" are pure nonsense.

 

[Toontown]

China already is "communist" only in name (and occassional lip service) for decades. If it will not become superpower, it will be for different reason than it's economic system.

For that reason lines spouted by you like "see the last best hope of communism be crowned Hyper-Power In The 21st and 1/2 Century" are pure nonsense.

It's still a command economy, so still essentially communistic.

And still extremely overpopulated. That's not going away. Therefore China's population will either continue to age more rapidly than less overpopulated countries, which is the lesser of the two evils. The greater evil would be a disastrous population explosion.

 

[Toontown]

I used to be one of those Bidness-oriented Free-Market Fundies who thought there was never a chance China could catch up to America as long as they were led by the Communist Party. Jesus, was I freakin' wrong!

Great.

But then you traded one false god for another.

That happens a lot.

 

[Jules Galen]

Great.

But then you traded one false god for another.

That happens a lot.

In a way, that's a fair comment. So I'll address it.

No, just because I realized that the ideology of Free-Market Capitilism is a bunch of nonsense, I did not adopt any other ideology in its place. Just like when I gave up Christianity, I did not suddenly adopt some other religion.

Now, I am a Market and Political Agnostic. If it can be proved to work, then I say lets do it. If it's working, then lets keep it and refine it. If it isn't working, then let's try something else. Is that so hard to understand?

Hey...I don't fit in your Left-Right Paradigm. Just as you can not assign a hair color to "Bald", neither can you assign a political bent to a Political/market Agnostic.

 

[Toontown]

I don't think you're going to be convincing Americans to turn over the U.S. economy to the government, a la China, if that's what you're hinting at. There aren't many rooms in the U.S. you wouldn't get laughed out of if you were to suggest that.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I don't think you're going to be convincing Americans to turn over the U.S. economy to the government, a la China, if that's what you're hinting at. There aren't many rooms in the U.S. you wouldn't get laughed out of if you were to suggest that.

And yet Trump believes he can get China to turn over their Economy to him.....

 

[The Atheist]

And yet Trump believes he can get China to turn over their Economy to him.....

They already are: http://www.bloomberg.com/politics/a...ced-by-rich-chinese-who-invest-cash-for-visas

Although it could be the other way round.

 

[Jules Galen]

It's still a command economy, so still essentially communistic.

And still extremely overpopulated. That's not going away. Therefore China's population will either continue to age more rapidly than less overpopulated countries, which is the lesser of the two evils. The greater evil would be a disastrous population explosion.

And...no matter what happens you will declare it a disaster for China.

If China is so bad off population-wise, then why don't you show us some figures? I mean, I've heard for over 35 years that China is either: 1. going to grow old because not enough babies are being born, or; 2. have a massive population problem. Yet...None of this has come to pass.

Then...I've been fed the line on how China's economy will never prosper because they aren't "Free Market"....or some such voodoo. Well...I think think they've got that "Free market" thing down and their recent growth and wealth confirms it. But, Alas....mention China's growth and wealth, and we again are told this is lies...that it's all a Communist Illusion.

We live in a funny world. I mean, just a few months ago it seemed like a lot of the Business Mags were worried that is the Chinese Economy tanked, then it might take the rest of the world with it. Yet, these were the same sources saying that China was just an adjunct to the US Economy back in 2008, and there was little hope that China's economy could "Decouple" (this was the term) from the US Economy. But...it did.

 

[Toontown]

Good for you, Jules. You've found yourself a new home.