An Eye on Israel

[Navigator]

I thought it might be prudent to create a thread focusing on current events as they unfold in relation to The State of Israel.

Ron Dermer - Israel's Ambassador to the United States and his stirring address of hope for the future! Despite all the terror and destruction engulfing the Middle East, history is on the side of Israel.

Video [3:46]

An eloquent writer and speaker, Ron Dermer, a religious Jew, originally from Miami Beach, Florida, became Israel’s ambassador to the United States in 2013. In his speech to the Christians United for Israel organization, he explains that as in most middle east countries the Christian population is drastically shrinking, in Israel it is growing and thriving.
In an eloquent affirmation of good will and cooperation between Israel and the United States, he appeals to the organization to continue their staunch support of Israel and the Jewish People.

Many believe that biblical prophesies are coming into their time of fulfillment - and while this subject could be considered a religious one which belongs in the Religion and Philosophy forum, this is a subject which is very much both a social issue as well as a current and ongoing event and The State of Israel is not ashamed to call itself a G-d believing G-d motivated state which sees itself the in the role of the best example as to how a country should conduct itself and how other nations would be wise to follow Her example and support Her against the tyranny of hatred and terror.

Perhaps they have a point...?

 

[Puppycow]

Wow. That's quite a statement (as well as an epic run-on sentence)!

Do you believe that biblical prophesies are coming into their time of fulfillment?

It kinda sounds like you do, or at least you are open to the idea.

So we should support Israel because it's "not ashamed to call itself a G-d believing G-d motivated state which sees itself the in the role of the best example as to how a country should conduct itself"? This is your position?

 

[MikeG]

...... The State of Israel is not ashamed to call itself a .......state which sees itself the in the role of the best example as to how a country should conduct itself.........

Well, they're wrong. Obeying international law and getting the hell out of other people's lands should be a starting point.

 

[Puppycow]

Well, they're wrong. Obeying international law and getting the hell out of other people's lands should be a starting point.

But G-d says that land belongs to Israel. Clearly G-d is the higher authority.

 

[Navigator]

Do you believe that biblical prophesies are coming into their time of fulfillment?

It kinda sounds like you do, or at least you are open to the idea.

I am under the impression that it does not actually matter what I believe in relation to Israel or prophesies to do with her.
The impression I have is that as a people, Israelis believe this to be the case, as this video demonstrates.


Certainly I am open to examining the idea critically to find out if there are other possible reasons for why prophesy from a few thousand years ago appears to have come to pass in relation to The State of Israel.

So we should support Israel because it's "not ashamed to call itself a G-d believing G-d motivated state which sees itself the in the role of the best example as to how a country should conduct itself"? This is your position?

My position is that I am someone who thinks that human beings have the potential to create a kind of Utopian type world system on the planet.
Of course, having the potential is not the same as actually doing anything about making the potential real.
But nonetheless, that is my position.

In observing what Israel is doing and their stated reasons for doing so, in comparison to the western allied countries, and world superpowers it appears that Israel has an edge on how they are achieving their goals as a people.

One small example is how the country I was born in has allowed the bankers and corporations from other countries to loan money to farmers so that they in turn can develop the land for the dairy industry and overstock the land in order to maximise profits in relation to trade with other countries, particularly with China who will buy as much as the industry can produce.

The result of this is that our once pristine waters are being seriously polluted and the land is under a lot of stress. This is happening because profits before people is the motivation. It is an extremely short-sighted system.

Israel on the other hand, works on ways of conserving water and maximising the use of the land.

They support their citizens and have some of the best minds in the world set to tasks of improving ways in which to support and nurture life, and build on what the have already achieved to make it even better.

So do I think it would be wise for the rest of the world to take notice and learn by what Israel is achieving?

Yes I do.

The fact that they choose to be motivated by their G-d concepts is, perhaps, besides the point.

Well, they're wrong. Obeying international law and getting the hell out of other people's lands should be a starting point.

A nice ideal but impractical. I say this in relation to what the superpowers have been doing with other countries - specifically oil producing countries - and while it is a nice sentiment, coming from the international forum doesn't really amount to a sack of beans.

Besides which, Israel has simply returned to land She once occupied (just as those prophecies said She would) and those who took umbrage at this event and declared war on Israel paid the price in relation to the rules of warfare and victors getting the spoils.

So issues of 'right' and 'wrong' have always been constantly shifting goal-posts throughout human history and while you and I might not agree to some of the rules of living in the material world, if we want to point the finger then perhaps the best place to start is in our own neighbourhoods.

Because, from what I have read of the criticisms aimed at Israel, Her responses very often point out the hypocrisies of those doing the accusing...and I have to admit that She does have a point.

I don't know if you are seriously saying that the Israelis should pack up and leave Israel, but if you are - I don't think you have thought that through very well.

 

[The Fool]

I am under the impression that it does not actually matter what I believe in relation to Israel or prophesies to do with her.
The impression I have is that as a people, Israelis believe this to be the case, as this video demonstrates.


Certainly I am open to examining the idea critically to find out if there are other possible reasons for why prophesy from a few thousand years ago appears to have come to pass in relation to The State of Israel.




My position is that I am someone who thinks that human beings have the potential to create a kind of Utopian type world system on the planet.
Of course, having the potential is not the same as actually doing anything about making the potential real.
But nonetheless, that is my position.

In observing what Israel is doing and their stated reasons for doing so, in comparison to the western allied countries, and world superpowers it appears that Israel has an edge on how they are achieving their goals as a people.

One small example is how the country I was born in has allowed the bankers and corporations from other countries to loan money to farmers so that they in turn can develop the land for the dairy industry and overstock the land in order to maximise profits in relation to trade with other countries, particularly with China who will buy as much as the industry can produce.

The result of this is that our once pristine waters are being seriously polluted and the land is under a lot of stress. This is happening because profits before people is the motivation. It is an extremely short-sighted system.

Israel on the other hand, works on ways of conserving water and maximising the use of the land.

They support their citizens and have some of the best minds in the world set to tasks of improving ways in which to support and nurture life, and build on what the have already achieved to make it even better.

So do I think it would be wise for the rest of the world to take notice and learn by what Israel is achieving?

Yes I do.

The fact that they choose to be motivated by their G-d concepts is, perhaps, besides the point.



A nice ideal but impractical. I say this in relation to what the superpowers have been doing with other countries - specifically oil producing countries - and while it is a nice sentiment, coming from the international forum doesn't really amount to a sack of beans.

Besides which, Israel has simply returned to land She once occupied (just as those prophecies said She would) and those who took umbrage at this event and declared war on Israel paid the price in relation to the rules of warfare and victors getting the spoils.

So issues of 'right' and 'wrong' have always been constantly shifting goal-posts throughout human history and while you and I might not agree to some of the rules of living in the material world, if we want to point the finger then perhaps the best place to start is in our own neighbourhoods.

Because, from what I have read of the criticisms aimed at Israel, Her responses very often point out the hypocrisies of those doing the accusing...and I have to admit that She does have a point.

I don't know if you are seriously saying that the Israelis should pack up and leave Israel, but if you are - I don't think you have thought that through very well.

Does the principle of compulsory categorization of citizens based on Genetics particularly appeal to you?

 

[Navigator]

Does the principle of compulsory categorization of citizens based on Genetics particularly appeal to you?

Are you talking about 'race'? Can you expand on exactly what you are referring to?

 

[The Fool]

Are you talking about 'race'? Can you expand on exactly what you are referring to?

I am referring to Israels compulsory categorization of its citizens based on their Genetics. Being such a fan of all things they do I would have thought you would be aware of the Israeli governments compulsory requirements regarding classification of their citizens.

 

[Darth Rotor]

The Fool, have they gotten to the tattooing thing yet?

 

[The Fool]

The Fool, have they gotten to the tattooing thing yet?

Who is advocating tattooing people? In the case of the Israeli Government classifying its citizens having a different style of birth date on their ID card is deemed sufficient.

Personally I have some issues with the current Likud coalition government that sort of precludes me from putting them on a pedestal and worshiping their brilliance.

 

[Navigator]

I am referring to Israels compulsory categorization of its citizens based on their Genetics. Being such a fan of all things they do I would have thought you would be aware of the Israeli governments compulsory requirements regarding classification of their citizens.

Do you have a link to that information please?

ETA

Wiki makes no mention of this practice...According to the Israeli Nationality Law

 

[The Fool]

Do you have a link to that information please?

ETA

Wiki makes no mention of this practice...According to the Israeli Nationality Law

If you are an Israeli citizen the government insists on knowing and recording if you are a Jew, an Arab, a Druze or something like 100+ other possibilities. Its compulsory to be categorized in this way..does this process appeal to you? Or do you need to know for sure if Israel does it or not before you know if you agree with it? If so....google is your friend.

 

[Navigator]

If you are an Israeli citizen the government insists on knowing and recording if you are a Jew, an Arab, a Druze or something like 100+ other possibilities. Its compulsory to be categorized in this way..does this process appeal to you? Or do you need to know for sure if Israel does it or not before you know if you agree with it? If so....google is your friend.

It is an intriguing subject so I am using my friend Google to find out more.

So far I have found this:

Genetic studies of Jewish origins

and this:

Q: I have read, "Genetically speaking, nothing differentiates one race from another. All humans share the same set of genes. There is no African gene, no Caucasian gene, no Asian gene." However, I also understand that there are genetic markers such as mtDNA haplotype L1, L2, L3, M, N and etc. that indicate a person's origins. In light of this, isn't it possible to determine "race" through DNA analysis?

-A curious adult from California

[LINK]

and also this:

Are you Jewish?


I have found nothing on what you are claiming so without that info I have no particular context in which to answer your question. You are obviously implying it is not a good thing, but don't offer any data that I can offer an informed answer about it.

Where did you get your information regarding it and why are you reluctant in providing any data about this?

 

[Navigator]

Biblical Prophecy is Happening Today! See it for Yourselves!

From the site...

This interpretation of the verse from Isaiah 11 “..for the knowlege of God will cover the earth as the water covers the sea,” is innovative and at the same time truly profound. We tend to see our technological world as being superficial, many “friends” on facebook are only virtual, many things that are spread over the net may present a one-sided, distorted view of reality. Pictures and facts can be glossed over and misrepresented. We have been exposed to a vast amount of knowledge and ideas, some of which are distorted and being used to influence our world outlook.

Simultaneously, there is a deeper, concealed reason for the widespread surge of technological media we are experiencing today. Our era is one of incredible access to knowledge and the ability to connect with people and ideas all over the globe. Within this superficial network lies depth. Just as the sea is deep and conceals a world that cannot be seen, so our technological world merely cloaks the deeper truths of our existence. Thus the metaphor of the sea is so appropriate and so true.
A video which is truly food for thought.

~ Published: February 20, 2016

Any thoughts on this concept?

 

[Tolls]

Do you have a link to that information please?

ETA

Wiki makes no mention of this practice...According to the Israeli Nationality Law

Try under Israeli Identity Card.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_identity_card#Question_of_ethnicity

 

[sunmaster14]

Try under Israeli Identity Card.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_identity_card#Question_of_ethnicity

That completely contradicts The Fool's claim.

 

[Tolls]

That completely contradicts The Fool's claim.

Well, the date format thing is a stretch, it's true, but:
"
If you are an Israeli citizen the government insists on knowing and recording if you are a Jew, an Arab, a Druze or something like 100+ other possibilities.
"

That's pretty much the case, though no longer on the card itself.

 

[Navigator]

Well thanks for the link - here is the bit about ethnicity from the link.

Question of ethnicity.
Prior to 2005, Identity Cards included a reference to the bearer's ethnic group. The official term for this category in Hebrew was le'om (לאום), and it was officially translated into Arabic as qawmīya (قومية). These terms could be translated into English as "nation" but in the sense of ethnic affiliation rather than citizenship. The le'om attribution was assigned by the Ministry of Interior regardless of the card bearer's preference. There were several attributions, the main ones being Jewish, Arab, Druze and Circassian. Identity Cards issued before 2005 included a disclaimer written in small print in Hebrew and Arabic indicating that the card may serve as a prima facie proof for the data that it includes except le'om, marital status and the spouse's name.
There have been some fierce legal battles about identifying the ethnicity of the bearer in the Israeli Identity card. In the 2000s, the ethnicity indicator began to be officially phased out. In 2002, the Supreme Court of Israel instructed the Ministry of Interior to indicate the ethnicity of people who underwent a Reform conversion as Jews. The minister at the time, Eli Yishai, a member of Shas, an Haredi party, decided he would drop the ethnicity category altogether, rather than list as Jews people whom he considered non-Jews. In 2004, the Supreme Court denied a citizen's petition to reinstate this indicator, stating that the field in the document was meant for statistical collection only, not as a declarative statement of Judaism. As of 2005, the ethnicity has not been printed; a line of eight asterisks appears instead. The bearer's ethnic identity can nevertheless be inferred by other data: the Hebrew calendar's date of birth is often used for Jews, and each community has its own typical first and last names.
The state's registration which serves as the basis for the data in the Identity Cards still indicates the ethnicity of each person, and the information is available upon request in certain circumstances determined by the registration law.
An amendment to the Israeli registration law approved by the Knesset in 2007 determines that a Jew may ask to remove the Hebrew date from his entry and consequently from his Identity Card. That is due to errors that often occur in the registration of the Hebrew date because the Hebrew calendar day starts at sunset, not at midnight. The amendment also introduces an explicit definition for the term "a day according to the Hebrew calendar".

Form what I gather from the various data re DNA + Israel, there is an interest in the science involved with it, which is connected to the peoples great interest and overall pride in their History.

My personal take on being human is that this is how I self identify and it doesn't really matter to me - or my sense of self - what others may label me or even for that matter how they might choose to treat me. None of that has any bearing on how I see my self or how I choose to see and treat others.

The purpose of this thread therefore was to hopefully engage in some discussion regarding the subject of Israel as the best example the world has in relation to how a nation might best handle itself - not just in the face of adversity but also in regards to nurturing the land and the people of the land.

As well as this, I am interested in hearing how others interpret the belief many Israelis have about G-d and particularly the prophesies regarding Israel which have undeniably come to pass.

As far as the claim from 'The Fool' that Israel is involved in " the principle of compulsory categorization of citizens based on Genetics" as per the demands of law regarding identity cards, as can be seen - it wasn't about anything untoward, immoral or otherwise against the normal healthy practices of human beings and their curiosity. Obviously Israel is in a unique position as a country being surrounded as She is by hostile enemies - many of whom want Her annihilated as a State and some even going so far as to want the actual people who self identity as being "Jews" annihilated.

So I would say that the requirement to have ethnic identity on ID cards as having been - at least in part - a way of addressing and combating some of those issues.

It appears though that the practice was stopped at least a decade ago, so the question is not really too relevant. I hope 'The Fool' can come to terms with this and move on - and perhaps even participate in a more positive manner with this thread.

 

[The Fool]

So I would say that the requirement to have ethnic identity on ID cards as having been - at least in part - a way of addressing and combating some of those issues.

It appears though that the practice was stopped at least a decade ago, so the question is not really too relevant. I hope 'The Fool' can come to terms with this and move on - and perhaps even participate in a more positive manner with this thread.

The practice has not stopped. Show me an Israeli identity card and I will tell you if the owner is a Jew or not.

you are an apologist for racism....pure and simple. If you saw it anywhere else it would revolt you. Would you support Australias right to be "the home of the white people" and support Australias right to insist that all citizens are classified as either "white" or "black"?

somehow if these revolting practices happen in Israel you are accepting.


Sorry.....I don't accept these practices anywhere.

 

[Navigator]

you are an apologist for racism....pure and simple.

[my bolding]

Let me tell you that you are predictable.

Let me reiterate...

My personal take on being human is that this is how I self identify and it doesn't really matter to me - or my sense of self - what others may label me or even for that matter how they might choose to treat me. None of that has any bearing on how I see my self or how I choose to see and treat others.

The purpose of this thread therefore was to hopefully engage in some discussion regarding the subject of Israel as the best example the world has in relation to how a nation might best handle itself - not just in the face of adversity but also in regards to nurturing the land and the people of the land.

If you think racial identification is a problem, what might you think of Astralian Aboriginals or NZ Maoris or any other indiginous race who go out of their way to celebrate being part of that RACE?

While it doesn't excite ME all that much, I appreciate that they have their reasons for wanting to self identify as being of a particular RACE and do not condemn them or regard them as thus being...racists...

People take certain pride in the history of their RACE. Why would you have a problem with that?

Take the Maori for example...They have the option of ticking a box on the enrollment form in regard to not only their ethnicity but also their tribe.

I assume since you have a problem with Israelis doing this, perhaps you might just have a problem with non Israelis doing this?

Do you live in a country where you are surrounded by enemies who would like nothing better than to see your RACE wiped off the face of the earth?

Perhaps if you did, you might think in a more productive and understanding manner...

I did notice that there are some citizens of some countries which are simply NOT allowed to enter Israel... do you have a problem with that as well?

Tell me...is there any RACE that you self identify with belonging to?