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Miracle of the Shroud V - Blood and Limestone

- Here's my story, and I'm s-s-stickin to it!
Please try to understand what people are explaining to you. If you did understand, you would not stick to the ridiculously wrong notions you set out below.

1. An event can be consistent with both an hypothesis and its complement.
Yes.
2. Being consistent with an hypothesis simply means that the event does not eliminate the hypothesis.
Yes, but you are stepping towards a wrong conclusion....
3. But such an event can still support one hypothesis over the other.
...And there you concluded wrongly. If it's consistent with both hypotheses, it supports both hypotheses.
4. If one hypothesis is that the 'event' is a dog, and the other is that it's an elephant, having four legs doesn't support one hypothesis over the other.
OK, except that your two hypotheses together do not cover all possibilities/
5. But if one hypothesis is that the event is a dog, and the other hypothesis is that it isn't a dog, having four legs is supportive of the dog hypothesis over the non-dog hypothesis.
NO. NO, NO, No and no. It is equally supportive of everything with four legs that is not a dog.

6. Our basic question here is how is such determined...
Your basic question might be that, everybody else's basic question is "Jabba, please can we return to discussing the CIQ?"
7. For instance fingerprints on the murder weapon is consistent with both guilt and innocence, but it's supportive of guilt.
No. And if you really believe that, then please never serve on a jury or involve yourself in law enforcement. Unless you eliminate all the innocent explanations for the fingerprints, the fingerprints support both guilt and innocence.
8. Not that such fingerprints prove guilt, but, they can be added to the guilt side of the equation.
NO! Please never use this wrong idea in an actual investigation or trial.
9. To determine that, we compare the likelihood of fingerprints given innocence to the likelihood of fingerprints given guilt.
We really, really should not do that.
10. Comparing those two, we get that the suspect's fingerprints on the murder weapon are more likely if the suspect is guilty than if he's innocent.
NO! Please, never use this wrong idea in an actual investigation or trial.
11. Consequently, fingerprints support guilt over innocence.
No! Please, never serve on a jury if you really think this.

12. Also, they are circumstantial evidence all by themselves -- they don't need any more bits of evidence in order to be considered circumstantial evidence.
So what? It's all inapplicable to the shroud.

13. Also, direct evidence (e.g., witness testimony) can be false.
Witness testimony is not direct evidence.

14. And finally, these principles apply to both science and law.
No. And please, never use your principles in law, as you may well be instrumental in convicting an innocent person.
15. And four legs supports dog over non-dog.
NO. It is supportive of dog just as much as any other four-legged thing which is not a dog.

Now please, return to the CIQ.
 
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- Here's my story, and I'm s-s-stickin to it!

1. An event can be consistent with both an hypothesis and its complement.
2. Being consistent with an hypothesis simply means that the event does not eliminate the hypothesis.
3. But such an event can still support one hypothesis over the other.
4. If one hypothesis is that the 'event' is a dog, and the other is that it's an elephant, having four legs doesn't support one hypothesis over the other.
5. But if one hypothesis is that the event is a dog, and the other hypothesis is that it isn't a dog, having four legs is supportive of the dog hypothesis over the non-dog hypothesis.

6. Our basic question here is how is such determined...
7. For instance fingerprints on the murder weapon is consistent with both guilt and innocence, but it's supportive of guilt.
8. Not that such fingerprints prove guilt, but, they can be added to the guilt side of the equation.
9. To determine that, we compare the likelihood of fingerprints given innocence to the likelihood of fingerprints given guilt.
10. Comparing those two, we get that the suspect's fingerprints on the murder weapon are more likely if the suspect is guilty than if he's innocent.
11. Consequently, fingerprints support guilt over innocence.

12. Also, they are circumstantial evidence all by themselves -- they don't need any more bits of evidence in order to be considered circumstantial evidence.

13. Also, direct evidence (e.g., witness testimony) can be false.

14. And finally, these principles apply to both science and law.
15. And four legs supports dog over non-dog.


Lovely. I sure hope you're not a dog owner. It would starve to death while you debated with it.

As you are well aware, for whatever the reason, the powers that be are letting you continue your really crap game. I suggest you try to at least make it look like you are having a debate about the topic of this thread.

Spamming irrelevant claptrap repeatedly is naughty.
Your reason for this thread is questionable.

Be careful and listen when nice people suggest that you quit the silly games and start behaving.
 
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5. But if one hypothesis is that the event is a dog, and the other hypothesis is that it isn't a dog, having four legs is supportive of the dog hypothesis over the non-dog hypothesis.
.

If the other hypothesis is that it is something that has four legs but is not a dog, then saying it has four legs is meaningless.

So it's a fake with blood on it. Considering there is no reason that a fake can't have blood on it, having blood tells you nothing.

Although I still wonder, why do you think that an authentic shroud would have blood on it, especially in the places you claim are "bloodstains"? You've never answered that.
 
- Here's my story, and I'm s-s-stickin to it!

1. An event can be consistent with both an hypothesis and its complement.
2. Being consistent with an hypothesis simply means that the event does not eliminate the hypothesis.
3. But such an event can still support one hypothesis over the other.

 
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- Here's my story, and I'm s-s-stickin to it!

Do not simply keep resetting the argument by restating your disproven claims ad nauseaum. They have been amply dealt with, and your stated refusal to examine the dealings does not authorize you to assert them repeatedly.

The difference between consistency and support in evidence has been explained to you numerous times in numerous ways. There is no magical legal, logical, or statistical process that transforms mere consistency into one-sided support.

You have continued to foist this false dichotomy,
"But if one hypothesis is that the event is a dog, and the other hypothesis is that it isn't a dog, having four legs is supportive of the dog hypothesis over the non-dog hypothesis."​

It has been explained to you at length how under one of your lines of reasoning it amounts simply to a circular argument. It has been explained to you at length how under your other line of reasoning it violates the a priori consistency condition of your argument. Until you demonstrate a willingness to address those explanations, rather than just skip them to spend time doing other things, you do not have a right to repeat your claims and expend a more extensive answer than this.

Also, they are circumstantial evidence all by themselves -- they don't need any more bits of evidence in order to be considered circumstantial evidence.

No. You're citing the definition of direct evidence and just calling it circumstantial evidence. You do not understand how circumstantial evidence, where proffered, is assembled into a case that may be tested. You ignore the elements of your sources that explain this to you.

In short, you may not simply dictate what evidence your critics are somehow bound to accept -- especially simply by calling it a name you read somewhere. Your paltry argument may be all you have, but in that case the outcome is the failure of your case and not an obligatory decrescendo in the standard of proof until you appear to prevail.

Also, direct evidence (e.g., witness testimony) can be false.

Any evidence of any kind can be false. To determine whether evidence is false or otherwise non-probative, it must be presented and tested. Witnesses are cross-examined to determine the strength of their testimony. Lab results are interpreted by experts to show how they may be produced by other causes.

You are patently unwilling to present your evidence and let it be tested, regardless of how you characterize it. You prefer to engage in rhetorical shenanigans apparently calculated to trick or browbeat your critics into accepting self-serving terms as a condition of your presentation of it.

If you will not present your evidence, then a reasonable person is forced to conclude either that you were bluffing when you said you had any, or that you are well aware that what you have is not convincing. Either way the reasonable conclusion to this four-year odyssey is that you cannot support the claim of authenticity with evidence.

And finally, these principles apply to both science and law.

No. The law imposes treatments on evidence for its own purposes such as justiciability and the need for trials eventually to end. Those qualifications, such as classifications of evidence, are wholly unneeded in science and wholly detrimental to science's purpose to determine ultimate truth.

Your fervent desire to interpolate legal rules of evidence into a scientific debate does not mean it is proper to do so, nor that your critics are obliged to let you. Your desperation in equating the law to science does not mean you can do it.
 
- Here's my story, and I'm s-s-stickin to it!

My Dear Mr. Savage:

"Come heck or high water", eh?

1. An event can be consistent with both an hypothesis and its complement.

Trivially true.

2. Being consistent with an hypothesis simply means that the event does not eliminate the hypothesis.

Trivially true.

3. But such an event can still support one hypothesis over the other.

Unsupported assertion. Suppose you provide an example?

4. If one hypothesis is that the 'event' is a dog, and the other is that it's an elephant, having four legs doesn't support one hypothesis over the other.

Trivially true.

5. But if one hypothesis is that the event is a dog, and the other hypothesis is that it isn't a dog, having four legs is supportive of the dog hypothesis over the non-dog hypothesis.

No, not at all. It may be "supportive" of [DOG] over part (and only part) of [~DOG]; as has been pointed out to you. It does not, in any way, support [DOG] over and against, say, [[PIG], or [TWO-WOMAN BOBSLED TEAM], or, for than matter [ANY ~DOG QUADRUPED].

It...doesn't.

6. Our basic question here is how is such determined...

Content-free place holder; like clearing your throat.

7. For instance fingerprints on the murder weapon is consistent with both guilt and innocence, but it's supportive of guilt.

In addition to being OT, this is incorrect. My slingshots all have my fingerprints on them, no matter how I clean them. Those fingerprints are evidence...that I touch my slingshots.

My fingerprints, in and of themselves, support do not "support" "guilt" over "innocence"

...and this is STILL an inappropriate standard for questions of fact.

8. Not that such fingerprints prove guilt, but, they can be added to the guilt side of the equation.

No. They can be "added" to the "I play with my toys" side of the "equation"...

9. To determine that, we compare the likelihood of fingerprints given innocence to the likelihood of fingerprints given guilt.

Wait. I thought you said it was "probability". Asymmetrical standard, much?

10. Comparing those two, we get that the suspect's fingerprints on the murder weapon are more likely if the suspect is guilty than if he's innocent.

Notice that you have added a condition in order to force your assumed consequent (again). In what way am I a "suspect", especially if the murder happened 50 years before I was born?

11. Consequently, fingerprints support guilt over innocence.

No, as explained above. My fingerprints on my slingshots "support" "I play with my toys" over "I collect slingshots I don't use".

12. Also, they are circumstantial evidence all by themselves -- they don't need any more bits of evidence in order to be considered circumstantial evidence.

Ummm, no. My fingerprints, on my slingshots are evidence that my fingerprints are on my slingshots.

13. Also, direct evidence (e.g., witness testimony) can be false.

Why, Mr. Savage! This looks like you are trying to front load more calumniation against Mme F-L, and Dr. McCrone, and unsupported calumniation at that.

Tsk, tsk.

14. And finally, these principles apply to both science and law.

No, not at all. On what authority do you make this...odd...claim, especially as both practitioners of Science and practitioners of the Law, her on this very forum, have pointed out otherwise?

Please provide a source to support your assertion, or withdraw it.

15. And four legs supports dog over non-dog.

So much for "finally", eh? See above.

I remain instructively yours & ct.
 
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Even supposing the cloth could be dated to someone who died about 2,000 years ago, by crucifixion, how does that explain the image of a man on it? Are we supposed to accept that this is something that just happens when deities are buried?
 
- Here's my story, and I'm s-s-stickin to it!

Circumstantial evidence is only applicable in law, not science, and only when there is no hard evidence that to counter it. It can NEVER override hard factual evidence. Plus it is primarily used to determine lines of further investigation to uncover the hard evidence necessary for proof. In science it only provides a potential avenue for investigation to obtain REAL evidence.

Story: The owner of a restaurant was found stabbed to death in the back of his restaurant. They collect finger prints, what appear to be blood samples, and witness statements. Among other unidentified samples Bob’s fingerprints are on the murder weapon, tests on the blood are not conclusive as to type or origin. Bob was seen having a heated discussion with owner several days before. These are all circumstantial evidence that point at Bob as a POTENTIAL suspect and additional data needs to be gathered to determine if it is relevant.

Bob is the chef at the restaurant and would be expected that his finger prints would be on the tools of his profession where he works. The finger prints have no value as circumstantial evidence in this case. (Limestone)

The kitchen serves a lot of beef that they cut to order before cooking. Unless specific data is available mere presence of blood has no value as circumstantial evidence in this case as it could be expected to be present. (Blood) Now even if they could prove human blood or Bob’s blood then that is still circumstantial as it could be expected to be present and would not carry any value.

Bob and the owner were longtime friends, Bob reported that the argument was over the fact that he suspect that the owner was having an affair and was giving him heck for it. A plausible explanation has been provided but needs further validation as Bob could be lying, this is inconclusive at best.

Bob wasn’t even in town on the day of the murder. He claims that he was at an awards banquet in a different state at the time. He produces plane tickets (documented history beginning 700ya) and photographs from the event from several social media sources indicating his place at the time (C14, weave). This is hard evidence that he could not have been the murder.

You are in effect are claiming that you are convinced that Bob IS the murder based solely on the circumstantial evidence from the scene because the hard evidence was probably faked. Furthermore you have not provided any factual support that those things were faked, merely speculation on how they could have been, false claims or other irrelevant aspersions. (Invisible Patch, Conspiracy, Improper Testing Protocol, Grumpy, Scared of the Truth)
 
Even supposing the cloth could be dated to someone who died about 2,000 years ago, by crucifixion, how does that explain the image of a man on it? Are we supposed to accept that this is something that just happens when deities are buried?

As has been noted that even if he could demonstrate (which he hasn’t) that this is an authentic burial shroud from 2000 years ago in Jerusalem how would you even begin to tie it to any particular individual. Crucifixion was not uncommon in that era and many victims were likely Jewish. They could be expected to be treated in the traditional manner by family members. Why is this not the shroud of the dude to the left or right of Jesus? Or a dude that was crucified earlier or later in the month… year…
 
Even supposing the cloth could be dated to someone who died about 2,000 years ago, by crucifixion, how does that explain the image of a man on it? Are we supposed to accept that this is something that just happens when deities are buried?

I would consider it progress, not proof. The age is the elephant in the room and dancing around with talks of blood and limestone doesn't address that it's not even half as old as it should be. Arguing favorably that it is that old would be a good step in the right direction.
 
Jabba's claims about 'circumstantial evidence'

- All I have is (what I consider to be) circumstantial evidence.


OK, let's look at the claims you have made about 'circumstantial evidence'.

Claim 1: Blood on the cloth would be circumstantial evidence for authenticity.
Has the presence of blood been demonstrated? No.
Does this support authenticity? No.

Claim 2: if it could be established that the cloth has been to Jerusalem, this would be circumstantial evidence of authenticity.
Has it been established that the cloth has been to Jerusalem? No.
Does this support authenticity? No.

Claim 3: four legs is circumstantial evidence for a dog.
Has it been established that the image on the shroud has four legs? Yes.
Does this support authenticity? No.

So the preponderance of circumstantial evidence supports DOG over AUTHENTIC SHROUD.
 
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- Here's my story, and I'm s-s-stickin to it!

1. An event can be consistent with both an hypothesis and its complement.
2. Being consistent with an hypothesis simply means that the event does not eliminate the hypothesis.
3. But such an event can still support one hypothesis over the other.
4. If one hypothesis is that the 'event' is a dog, and the other is that it's an elephant, having four legs doesn't support one hypothesis over the other.
5. But if one hypothesis is that the event is a dog, and the other hypothesis is that it isn't a dog, having four legs is supportive of the dog hypothesis over the non-dog hypothesis.

6. Our basic question here is how is such determined...
7. For instance fingerprints on the murder weapon is consistent with both guilt and innocence, but it's supportive of guilt.
8. Not that such fingerprints prove guilt, but, they can be added to the guilt side of the equation.
9. To determine that, we compare the likelihood of fingerprints given innocence to the likelihood of fingerprints given guilt.
10. Comparing those two, we get that the suspect's fingerprints on the murder weapon are more likely if the suspect is guilty than if he's innocent.
11. Consequently, fingerprints support guilt over innocence.

12. Also, they are circumstantial evidence all by themselves -- they don't need any more bits of evidence in order to be considered circumstantial evidence.

13. Also, direct evidence (e.g., witness testimony) can be false.

14. And finally, these principles apply to both science and law.
15. And four legs supports dog over non-dog.

I thought this thread was about the shroud.

Craig
 
I would consider it progress, not proof. The age is the elephant in the room and dancing around with talks of blood and limestone doesn't address that it's not even half as old as it should be. Arguing favorably that it is that old would be a good step in the right direction.

Jabba wants to mount an inductive case based on circumstantial evidence. Sadly he's approaching it from such a comically biased direction that he can't see the radiocarbon dating as a "circumstance" he must include.

Aside briefly, let's recall Jabba is trying to equivocate between two meanings of "circumstantial evidence." Even accepting arguendo that circumstantial evidence is useful in this case, Jabba's shenanigans surrounding it are inexcusable. "Is X circumstantial evidence?" he asks. "Is X circumstantial evidence of authenticity?" He's asking for individual examples of circumstantial evidence in order to blur the distinction between one individual line of evidence that participates in a circumstantial case, and the entire case itself. The latter may be probative. The former certainly is not.

How can I say that with such confidence? Because the difference between circumstantial evidence and direct evidence is exactly the difference between support and mere consistency. A single piece of evidence may be consistent with several hypothesis. As such it may be considered circumstantial evidence. But of what? Of nothing. It is circumstantial in nature. It is not evidence supporting of some particular hypothesis over another. Specifically it is not evidence supportive of one of the several consistent hypotheses over the other.

In this debate even the word "evidence" becomes putty in Jabba's hands. Were I not to write this caution, I'm sure Jabba would -- as he has before -- co-opt this post to ask, "Are you saying I have evidence?" There is a neutral meaning to "evidence," but when you want to start talking about support for a hypothesis then you need one of the more qualified definitions. I can speak of "evidence in the case," but you won't know without further discussion whether I intend the evidence to be inculpatory or exculpatory.

How do bits of circumstantial evidence -- individually inconclusive -- form a case? By means of convergence and consilience. A single bit of "circumstantial evidence" proves nothing either way. By definition, a single bit of "circumstantial evidence" cannot by itself support one hypothesis over another, except those hypotheses that are simply inconsistent with the evidence. (Jabba has co-opted this exclusion principle and misapplied it to his claims.) We don't consider hypotheses that are inconsistent with any of our evidence. We consider only consistent hypotheses.

Hence I cannot give you a single example of "circumstantial evidence in favor of X?" if by that is meant a single bit of evidence. I can give you an example of circumstantial evidence that may be developed into evidence for X, but that requires additional effort. I can give you an example of a case for X composed entirely of circumstantial evidence, but that would not be just a single item. In essence, what Jabba is asking for simply doesn't exist by definition.

So what is "convergence" in this sense? As I said, you assemble the body of relevant evidence. You postulate in each case what possible collection of causes produced that one observation. That hypothesis set becomes a category of hypotheses that is susceptible to propositional (categorical) reasoning. Now if you do this honestly and carefully for each line of evidence, and the set of hypotheses common to all of them contains but one hypothesis, then the evidence is said to have converged. Not all bodies of circumstantial evidence do this. But the important thing to remember is that circumstantial evidence does not support a hypothesis unless there is convergence.

This is why circumstantial evidence must be taken as a whole in order to have any probative value. The logical analysis simply doesn't occur unless there exist several categories of hypotheses whose intersection can be reasoned.

Blood is circumstantial evidence. It is arguably consistent both with authenticity and certain artificial means of production. Limestone is circumstantial evidence. Even more so than the blood, it is simply refractory to the question of authenticity. Limestone on the cloth would occur simply from the cloth's known history since 1300 CE, regardless of its history, if any, before then. Are these things circumstantial evidence of authenticity? Clearly not. Taking the intersection of the hypotheses sets, we find no unity or clarity. The evidence, as considered here, does not converge. There is no proof here by circumstantial evidence.

Jabba's categories of hypothesization are simply just so far out there as to be irretrievably biased. He wants to consider things like blood and limestone to be a body of evidence that favors authenticity. He wants to consider the radiocarbon evidence to be in a separate body of evidence that favors forgery. He wants to put them on opposite sides of a scale and argue over which way the scale tilts. And he concludes it tilts toward authenticity.

But if you want to reason "circumstantially," then you have to throw all the pertinent evidence into the same pot and look at those hypotheses sets. Lo and behold, when you factor in the weave, the blood, the limestone, and the carbon isotopes and look at the intersection of hypotheses, you find fairly easily that the evidence has converged toward forgery.

Following Jabba's logic, such an exercise would "prove" that blood or limestone is "circumstantial evidence of forgery." But such is not the case. (Jabba commits this error, but in the direction of authenticity.) Not only is it circular reasoning, it commits one of a number of compositional fallacies.

The probative value of the body of evidence does not distill upon its constituents. Just because the Senate may do various things does not mean each individual senator can do any of those things. The power of the Senate is vested in the convened body, not in its elements. Commensurately the proof of a case founded upon circumstantial evidence is vested in the body of it, not in each or any of its elements. Without providing the body and showing convergence, one has no case.

Now onto consilience. This is a different perspective on convergence, which shows merely a common thread in all the hypotheses explaining all the elements of evidence. The law of parsimony tells us that, all other things being equal, the hypothesis that requires the least assumption is most likely to be the truth. But we can go one better. Within the purview of one line of evidence we can apply knowledge to determine, of all the possible ways to explain it, which one most likely explained it.

We do this irrespective of all other lines of evidence. The key to consilience is that we scrupulously avoid bias intruding from other lines of evidence and from some hovering overall conclusion. (Crime labs, incidentally, generally do not do this, which is a big reason why scientific findings in the legal sense are not compatible with pure scientific inquiry.) When we come to the table with evidence that not only converges, but converges to the strongest hypothesis that individually explains each element of evidence, we have a case that can meet a standard of probativity that establishes reliable fact.

The strongest explanation for the radiocarbon dating is that it is, in fact, the scientifically indicated date. Explanations that it arose from switched samples, from non-representative samples, or by means of coercion or conspiracy have been tested and are simply not convincing explanations for that particular bit of evidence. If you develop the other lines of evidence accordingly, but without regard to carbon dating or to whether you favor authenticity or not, you come up with similar comparisons.

And the consilient finding among all the pertinent evidence is that the shroud is an artifice that is roughly 700 years old.

Jabba says he can provide an argument from consilience to the contrary. But he clearly won't, so we reject his argument as bluff and bluster.
 
Oh, I certainly don't believe he has evidence (though according to Wiki there are a couple of unverified claims of it's existence prior to it's debut, though still not nearly old enough) or that he'll move beyond his little word games, but at this point even feigning evidence of something would feel like an escape from the ouroborus we're in.

Otherwise a perfectly cromulent post, Jay, that for obvious reasons I did not quote.
 
Now onto consilience. This is a different perspective on convergence, which shows merely a common thread in all the hypotheses explaining [/b]all the elements of evidence.[/b] .

This is where Jabba fails the hardest. He doesn't actually consider ALL of the evidence. He ignores stuff that goes against authenticity, circumstantial or otherwise.

He also fails in that he focuses solely on confirmatory evidence. A refresher on the Wason Selection Task would help to remind everyone how important it is to rule out the alternative, and evidence that does that is as important as confirmation. This is the significance of the dating. It is direct evidence that says it CANNOT be authentic (because it's not old enough). None of his circumstantial evidence rules out the possibility of it not being authentic.

You can list a bunch of circumstantial characteristics of a dog if you want, but if they are all also consistent with an elephant, you can't discount the observation that it weighs 12000 lbs.
 
Jabba wants to mount an inductive case based on circumstantial evidence. Sadly he's approaching it from such a comically biased direction that he can't see the radiocarbon dating as a "circumstance" he must include.
<snip for brevity>
Jabba has told us out front that this is the only part of your post which he will read. Admittedly erudite and well written as it is, I read all of it. Probably most here read all of it. Jabba has stated he will not. Under any circumstance.
 
Jabba has told us out front that this is the only part of your post which he will read. Admittedly erudite and well written as it is, I read all of it. Probably most here read all of it. Jabba has stated he will not. Under any circumstance.

#RTFM

#shroudapologetics
 

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