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Miracle of the Shroud V - Blood and Limestone

Foundational Stuff

My Dear Mr. Savage:

You continue to ask the wrong question, no matter how may times your error is pointed out to you.

If you feel you must cling to a discussion of "circumstantial evidence", please consider joining a thread over at "Trials and Errors"; there, it would be appropriate.

Since the matter of the manifestly medieval CIQ is not a criminal proceeding, "circumstantial evidence" does not apply.

What evidence do you have to offer, that the manifestly medieval ~700-year-old CIQ is actually ~2000 years old? Is it time for you to admit that you have none; that there is none; and move on?

On a different note: have you repaired the grotesque and egregious errors you have included in your "map"?

I remain helpfully yours, &ct.
Slowvehicle,
- All I have is (what I consider to be) circumstantial evidence.
- Jay is happy to provide abstract definitions of circumstantial evidence and consilience that I think I understand, but he keeps telling me that I don't...
- I ask for examples of circumstantial evidence so as to better understand, but everyone keeps telling me (in effect) that I've been given examples that I don't read -- and, they don't want to keep repeating themselves...
- I can go back and try to look up these examples, but that will slow me down -- and as you know, I'm too slow already.
- I have to sit with my grandkids in school this morning -- so, I'll be back.
 
- All I have is (what I consider to be) circumstantial evidence.

What's with this possessiveness? And why are you limiting yourself? You also have the carbon dating evidence, the weave pattern, the letters written around the time the shroud is first recorded, the style of the image; all this information is available to you, too. Why do you ignore these?

The way it works is that you start with the evidence, all of it, and see where it takes you. You don't decide on your conclusion and ignore anything that doesn't fit.
 
I haven’t said this for a while so . . . . .

Jabba, it does not matter what the image is on the cloth, it does not matter what the image on the cloth is made of, it does not matter how many legs a dog, elephant, giraffe or walking fish has. What does matter is the age of the cloth as no other attributes of it (e.g. what dust it has or the image on it) can have occurred before the cloth was made.
What reliable evidence do you have for it being 2000 years old?
 
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Slowvehicle,
- All I have is (what I consider to be) circumstantial evidence.
- Jay is happy to provide abstract definitions of circumstantial evidence and consilience that I think I understand, but he keeps telling me that I don't...
- I ask for examples of circumstantial evidence so as to better understand, but everyone keeps telling me (in effect) that I've been given examples that I don't read -- and, they don't want to keep repeating themselves...
- I can go back and try to look up these examples, but that will slow me down -- and as you know, I'm too slow already.
- I have to sit with my grandkids in school this morning -- so, I'll be back.

My Dear Mr. Savage:

Despite the patience with which your derail has been treated, and despite the fine contributions of many dedicated and well-informed posters; you are still using the wrong standard.

I say again: "circumstantial evidence" does not apply to questions of fact.

The CIQ has been dated to the mid-thirteenth Century, C.E., in what has been called the most observed bit of radiocarbon dating ever. You must overcome that fact to even begin dealing with the other deficiencies of the CIQ.

You continue to hope that you can pass off your dissatisfaction with the results/I] of the 14C dating as "evidence" that the dating is "deficient"; in reality, your entire idea is predicated on the "fact" that the 14C dating produced the "wrong" date--that is, a date that rules out the possibility that the CIQ might have been used as a burial cloth for a person who might have existed in the 1st Century, C.E.

Suppose you take a deep breath, marshal your resources, and produce the single best bit of evidence you have that the CIQ might even arguably be ~2000 years old.

Don't worry about "circumstantial evidence". Don't worry about being caught trying to stack the deck. Don't worry about trying to recruit support for a pig-in-a-poke. Just...present your very best evidence.

I remain hopefully yours, & ct.
 
Slowvehicle,
- All I have is (what I consider to be) circumstantial evidence.
- Jay is happy to provide abstract definitions of circumstantial evidence and consilience that I think I understand, but he keeps telling me that I don't...
- I ask for examples of circumstantial evidence so as to better understand, but everyone keeps telling me (in effect) that I've been given examples that I don't read -- and, they don't want to keep repeating themselves...
- I can go back and try to look up these examples, but that will slow me down -- and as you know, I'm too slow already.
- I have to sit with my grandkids in school this morning -- so, I'll be back.

This is untrue. You're not as busy or as forgetful as you pretend to be.

If you were busy you wouldn't have so much time to waste selecting and copying peoples' responses from here over to your bizarre BlogThing.

If you were forgetful you wouldnt remember to waste so much time selecting and copying peoples' responses from here over to your bizarre BlogThing so regularly.
 
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I made a blunder. Pobodies Nerfect. You rightly pointed out that blunder. I put my hand up and said guilty as accused, yer honour.

I don't see the problem, here, Abaddon. I simply asked for clarification about the nature of your mistake, because I don't see how your jab about hashtags wasn't deliberate, unless you mistook me for jabba or something.

Why is it so hard to clarify?
 
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Slowvehicle,
- All I have is (what I consider to be) circumstantial evidence..

No, all you are willing to consider is the stuff you call "circumstantial evidence."

However, you ignore direct evidence that rules out authenticity. For example, the age of the shroud.

I've pointed this out to you many times, even within your own analogy.

You keep saying "four legs" increases the probability of [DOG] over [~DOG]. However, as others have pointed out, it says nothing about [DOG] vs [OTHER STUFF WITH FOUR LEGS]. In fact, you fail to acknowledge that it increases the likelyhood of it being [CAT] over [~CAT] just as it does for dog.

Therefore, blood on the shroud might increase the likelihood of it being [authentic] vs [~authentic] but it also increases the likelihood of it being [fake with blood on it] vs [~fake]. That's because blood on the shroud is consistent with both.

Meanwhile, you have ignored other information that helps. Back to the age of the shroud. We have "bits of info" that says the shroud is 700 years old. Does that not count as evidence? In fact, it is direct evidence (not circumstantial stuff) that the shroud cannot be authentic.

You keep claiming that the weight of circumstantial evidence is enough to lead to questioning of the 14C dating. But that is silly, and your analogy shows it.

What you are claiming is the equivalent of saying that knowing it has four legs and a tail, which you claim is evidence for it being [DOG], means that we can question the weight of 12000 lbs.

If I told you something had a four legs, a tail and sits on command, you might say "dog." But if I then told you it weighed 12000 lbs, what's the correct answer? The 12000 lbs is wrong, and it is likely a dog? Or that it is not a dog, but is a circus elephant?

That's what we have here. You have claimed that the circumstantial evidence outweighs (pun convenient) the 14C dating. However, your dog analogy shows that your circumstantial evidence is not inconsistent with the fake.

If the "bits of info" you have consist of four legs, a tail, sits on command and weighs 12000 lbs, the correct conclusion is NOT "it's a dog and the 12000 lb weight must be wrong," but "it's a circus elephant."
 
All I have is (what I consider to be) circumstantial evidence.

It doesn't matter what you call it. If you're unwilling to present it and participate in a discussion of its meaning and probative value, you might as well have no evidence of any kind whatsoever.

Jay is happy to provide abstract definitions of circumstantial evidence and consilience that I think I understand, but he keeps telling me that I don't.

No, let's be clear what's really happening. I write at length on several topics that affect your claims. You largely ignore me, except when you see something you think you can twist to your advantage. Then, and only then, do you engage, and that engagement is invariably limited to one of your standard word games such as equivocation.

You apparently think this faux confusion is fooling your critics. You are playing the part of the congenial-yet-befuddled old man just trying to get along in a friendly debate. The problem is that you're a terrible actor. No one buys your performance for a minute. It's predictable and shallow, and follows a well-worn pattern of fringe argumentation. You're just not as clever as you think you are.

I can go back and try to look up these examples, but that will slow me down -- and as you know, I'm too slow already.

Wow, you have some wontons. Where to begin...

You're the obstructionist. I assume you're familiar with the scene from Monty Python where the entire assembled cast shouts "Get on with it!" This is what you face here at this point in this debate, and you've plainly told us you have no intention of proceeding with a presentation of evidence until we all agree to your predeterminations. You're the one who, under those circumstances, wastes your allegedly precious posting time polling each individual critic to see whether he will take your latest equivocation bait.

You're also willfully disinterested. You tell us you read only the first bit of posts. And you clearly ignore many others in their entirety, yet have the uncanny ability to suddenly become very focused as soon as it seems someone has agreed with you or said something favorable to your claims.

This selectivity is insulting and frustrating to your critics, many of whom are genuinely trying to educate you or show you the error of your thinking. What's most telling is how you treat the outcome of that frustration. When someone throws up his hands in vexation and leaves, you celebrate it as a victory. That speaks very clearly to what you intend to do and how you intend to do it.

As I said, you're a terrible actor.

Not only should you go back and read the discussion you admit you've missed, you have a moral duty to do so. Your critics are under no obligation to follow your contrived circuit of deception, indifference, and repetition. You can happily filibuster for as long as the moderators tolerate you, but no one else is compelled to indulge you.

As far as I'm concerned, if I wrote it here in response to something you've said, you're responsible for reading and responding to it. If later you decide it was noteworthy, your penance is clear. You and only you are responsible for your ability and willingness to keep up with the debate. It's rich of you to suggest that your critics must repeat themselves so that you can grind another 100 pages out of this thread.

It's especially rich when it's common knowledge you have the time to maintain a blog parallel to this debate in which you report, in misleading one-sided fashion, what happens here. If you have time to publicly report on this debate in a venue where readers cannot see your critics' responses side-by-side with your representations, then you have time to go back and read what you intentionally skipped over.

It's high time you stopped treating your critics with such brazen disrespect. Man up and present your evidence without further insolence and evasion.
 
This is untrue. You're not as busy or as forgetful as you pretend to be.

If you were busy you wouldn't have so much time to waste selecting and copying peoples' responses from here over to your bizarre BlogThing.

If you were forgetful you wouldnt remember to waste so much time selecting and copying peoples' responses from here over to your bizarre BlogThing so regularly.

It really is bizarre to see little snippets of a larger conversation copied over there so as to imply a more consistent conversation. And even without the many, many excluded pleas for evidence it really doesn't make Jabba's arguments look all that good.
 
Unlike a lot of you here, I really appreciate the dog analogy. As I mentioned, it really highlights the folly of his claims.

For example, see my wordy post above, which can be summarized in the following:

We have "bits of information":
Four legs
Tail
Sits on command
12000 lbs.

Jabba's approach is to claim that four legs, tail and sits on command are "circumstantial evidence" for a dog, and therefore the 12000 lbs measurement must be wrong.

We, on the other hand, say "that's a circus elephant."

And that is all ignoring the "bit of info" that it is gray.

But it comes down to the completely ludicrous argument that "four legs, tail and sits on command" means that it is not 12000 lbs. And that is exactly what he is claiming for the shroud. Blood and limestone mean that it is not 700 years old. It's completely nonsense.
 
It really is bizarre to see little snippets of a larger conversation copied over there so as to imply a more consistent conversation. And even without the many, many excluded pleas for evidence it really doesn't make Jabba's arguments look all that good.

I was being kind when I used the word "bizarre".
I'm sure there are trained professionals who could diagnose such behaviour, name it and not get sent to the naughty corner.

Is that even legal?
Whilst his game is some kind of crime against humanity I doubt The Internet Police will come knocking.
 
Many years ago, at college, we were told the secret to essay writing was three simple stages:-
  1. Say what you're going to say
  2. Say it
  3. Say what you've said

Any chance, Jabba, you can move from stage 1 to stage 2 in the next 5 years? From what I read, we are only at stage 1
 
Is that even legal?

It probably doesn't fall under fair use but I guess we'd need to know if our posts are automatically in the public domain. At the very least he really should ask each and every person he wants to quote for permission.
 
Unlike a lot of you here, I really appreciate the dog analogy. As I mentioned, it really highlights the folly of his claims.

I think the dog analogy is effective but when he started ignoring the conclusion and just assumed it agreed with him it felt, at least to me, time to get on with it.
 

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