Continuation Part 20: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Mike1711]

So? The police are paid to trace down leads. By all accounts, the "psychopathology" lead went nowhere, with the exception of a lone hand-writing analysis made available to the Rudy fast-track process.

That turned out to be so convincing that no other court and no other prosecutor, and no other judge convicting or otherwise made mention of it.

The only people who make mention of it are anonymous arm-chair detectives on obscure websites, this one included. These libellous statements are made, when reputable professionals would never say the equivalent even after several clinical settings in controlled conditions.

By, hey, it's simply fun to accuse strangers, anonymously, of being psychopaths or having some sort of psychopathology.

Vixen,

as usual has the cart before the horse. It's fine to examine the handwriting of known "psycho felons" as a form of science AFTER their conviction but to attach importance to handwriting in convicting criminals is an absurdity.

Adolf Hitler, Ted Bundy, Gary Gilmore and many others have had their handwriting analysed for scientific purposes (whether science or bogus science is another discussion altogether) AFTER conviction but to take the handwriting of Joe Blogs and attach any importance to the fact that it resembles Adolf Hitler's is complete patent bogus nonsense.

It's also true that handwriting may be used to profile a killer at large but never to convict.

 

[Mike1711]

Get your time line right, then logic will follow. Rudy thought he was there 20:40. His times are out, as Mez didn't arrive until circa 21:05 IIRC - as verified by an eye witness.

The last ping from Mez' phone at the cottage was circa 22:15 IIRC.

Question for you: what was Rudy doing there for over an hour, when it is well known burglars, rapists and murderers are highly nervous and keen to leave the scene of the crime ASAP?

What's all the brouhaha about 'burst pipes', 'blood on the back of Raff's hand from the fish' and total amnesia for Amanda as to what she did that night until a bunch of nuns visited her in the nick. "Mother Mary comes to me".

Suddenly, she remembers it all: she was fast asleep throughout. However, Raf refuses to vouch for where she was 20:45 to 01:00.

<fx Brummie accent: 'Yes, mate!'>

When I was 15 years old I was abducted by a psycho for his own purposes. I used all my wits to get out of a very bad situation. It took five long hours before to formulate and put my escape plan into action. I pretended to be co-operative whilst formulating an escape from a third floor apartment weighing up the escape options, of which I could find only one. Part of the five hours included playing chess with my captor, bowing to his demand that I get dressed up in his leather outfits and modeling for him. My delaying tactics ended when my captor described in graphic detail what he was about to do to me. I had to escape and I did.

Thankfully he didn't touch me, but my memory of the event still haunts me. It took me five years before I was able to disclose this event to anybody.

Don't attach time frames to how the mentally demented behave. There's no rule book.

 

[bagels]

I think you operating under the delusion that the tiny clique of people who call themselves Friends of Amanda have any pretensions to competence.
The fact that a small group of people on the internet agree on something, doesn't make it true.

You're operating under the delusion that Sophie Purton walked Meredith all the way home, lied about it for no reason, the police failed to recognize this in vital CCTV footage they collected, that a random passerby stamped at 13:22 just happened to be wearing distinctive striped pants like the carabinieri right after a carabinieri car drove by, but was not in fact a carabinieri officer, and that the two male figures standing on the cottage grounds shortly after two male postal police officers arrived at the cottage grounds in their black fiat, one of them identified by the police as officer Battistelli, were not the two officers in question. And that half a dozen phone calls totaling about 6 minutes went completely unnoticed by either officer while they were alone with the students the entire time.

So...I guess that makes two of us

 

[query grind]

You're operating under the delusion that Sophie Purton walked Meredith all the way home, lied about it for no reason,

My understanding is her then boyfriend - or his associates - asked her to lie about it. And his motive was because he had been involved in the clean-up.

the police failed to recognize this in vital CCTV footage they collected, that a random passerby stamped at 13:22 just happened to be wearing distinctive striped pants like the carabinieri right after a carabinieri car drove by, but was not in fact a carabinieri officer, and that the two male figures standing on the cottage grounds shortly after two male postal police officers arrived at the cottage grounds in their black fiat, one of them identified by the police as officer Battistelli, were not the two officers in question. And that half a dozen phone calls totaling about 6 minutes went completely unnoticed by either officer while they were alone with the students the entire time.

As far as I know neither Massei, Hellman or Marasca take a position on the timing of the CCTV - at least searching the online wordpress copies of Massei and Hellman for "camera" and "CCTV" come up with nothing.

Nencini correctly observes the most likely explanation for the 13:22 is an early drive past before ringing control to put them through to Amanda Knox. And quotes the following:

“(…) in particular attention was paid [162] to the image of CCTV camera number 7, which permits the monitoring of the street above the dwelling as well as, if only in a partial way, of the area adjacent to the entrance, which leads to the service area belonging to the dwelling at 7 Via Della Pergola, also because of the reflection of the sun. In a sequence regarding the time which goes from 12:35:51 pm a Postal Police vehicle is noted, a black Fiat Grande Punto, entering the ramp of the top car-park where it remains for a few seconds. Then at 12:36:16 pm it moves and stands for another 32 seconds in front of the entrance to the car-park at street level, with only the driver on board. It is well to specify, as confirmed by the officers of the Postal Police, that Chief Inspector Michele Battistelli had got out of the car to look for the street number 7 of Via della Pergola. In the sequence of 12:36:48 pm the vehicle reverses to meet the colleague on foot but the CCTV camera does not succeed in framing the actual entrance to the service area of 7 Via Della Pergola. (…)

I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But it is not a position of the prosecution or any finding of any level of the Italian courts that the CCTV was 10 minutes slow.

So if anyone wants to say: "It is my opinion that the CCTV timestamp was 10 minutes out" that is fine. But it is not fine to say: "It is a proven fact the CCTV timestamp was 10 minutes out". Because it is not a proven fact.

 

[Vixen]

Time line for Vixen
16:00-17:00 Amanda and Raffaele leave the cottage.[10]
16:50 Francesco Sollecito calls Raffaele[11]
16:56 Francesco Sollecito calls Raffaele[12]
17.45 Jovana Popovic of Serbia visits Raffaele’s apartment requesting a ride to the bus station later that night because her mother was sending a suitcase from Milan. Raffaele agreed to help. Popovic saw Amanda using the computer and everything was normal.[13]
18:27:15 VLC launched on Raffaele’s computer to play the movie Amelie.avi[14]
19:30 Guede claims he left home shortly after TG3 regional started and headed to the cottage and noticed a car parked outside the gates when he arrived.[15]
19:51 First sighting of Rudy Guede on CCTV and a parked car outside the cottage gates. Guede seen walking through the car park towards the cottage gates. CCTV time stamp is 19:41.[16]
20.01 Hekuran Kokomani’s cell phone pings off a tower servicing the cottage.[17
]20:18:12 Patrick Lumumba sends a text message to Amanda saying she wasn’t needed at work. Cell Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 3. Cell tower covers Raffaele’s apartment (See notes below). Amanda and Raffaele are watching Amelie [129min][18]
20:20 Second sighting of person thought to be Guede on car park CCTV. He is walking from left to right along the street, past the car park on the right and the cottage on the left. CCTV time stamp is 20:10.[19]
20:35:48 Amanda responds with text message to Lumumba. Message is “Certo. Ci vediamo più tardi. Buona serata” [Sure, See you later on. Have a good evening] Cell Via Berardi sector 7[20]
20:40 Jovana Popovic returns to Raffaele’s apartment to say she no longer needs a ride to the bus stop. Amanda opened the door and they spoke for two mins. Popovic said Amanda was normal, smiling and invited her inside but she declined.[21]
20:42:56 Francesco Sollecito calls Raffaele and they speak for 3 1/2 minutes. Cell Via Berardi sector 7.[22]
20:45 Time approximate: Meredith leaves Robyn Butterworth’s apartment at Via Bontempi 22 and walks part way home with Sophie Purton.[23]20:55 Sophie Purton arrives home in Via del Lupo. Source Micheli Report. “On 17 November, P[urton] made a new prosecuting magistrate deposition…correcting the time that she was back in Via del Lupo, recalling that it was still 20:55”[23]
20:56 Meredith calls her mother in England but does not receive an answer. The call is logged in the phones memory.[24]
21:01 Meredith seen on the car park CCTV walking towards the cottage gates. Time adjusted forward 10 minutes per defense theory.[25]
21:10 Human interaction on Raffaele Sollecito’s computer. [Amelie ends][26]
21.20-21.30 Rudy Guede says Meredith screamed.[27]
21:26 Spotlight metadata shows “Naruto ep 101.avi” file is opened on Raffaele’s laptop. [duration 23 minutes][28]
21:58 The number 901, corresponding to the answering machine is dialed on Meredith’s phone but the call is shut off before the end of the welcome message; after that, the phone immediately locks.[29]
22:00 A number is dialed on Meredith’s phone which corresponds to a bank [Abbey, the first number on the phone book] but no one is called, also because the mandatory prefix +44 was not entered.[30]
22:13 Meredith’s cell phone receives a MMS. Connected via wind cell 30064. GPRS [internet] lasting 9 seconds to the IP address 10.205.46.41[31]
22:00-22:30 Time approximate: Alessandra Formica and boyfriend, Lucio Minciotti, descended the stairs next to Piazza Grimana that lead to via San Antonio where their car is parked. Claims a black man [who could have been African or Indian] walking with his head down bumped into her boyfriend and continued walking in a hurry as if nothing had happened. Original police statement given to Monica Napoleoni on November 12, 2007 said “While we were going down the steps, my boyfriend was violently bumped into by a man of color, who was running very fast towards via Pinturicchio.” Minciotti told her what they’d witnessed wasn’t important and not to go the police. Formica also testifies seeing a broken down car at the car park exit and the owner standing beside it talking on a cellphone. Formica didn’t notice or look at the cottage. Note – This person seen by Formica was not Rudy Guede.[32]
22.30 Elizabeth Lana [owner of the property where the phones were dumped] receives a threatening phone call and told not to use the toilet.[33]
22.30 Time approximate: A car breaks down at the exit of the parking garage across from the cottage. Pasqualino Coletta [the driver] testified that he called for assistance and nothing out of the ordinary happened while waiting. He heard no screams or saw anyone at the cottage. Note – He was part of a group of people traveling in two cars and had just finished dinner when the car broke down. None of the group noticed or heard anything. The second car in the group parked outside the cottage gates waiting for the repair man.[34]
22.30 Elizabeth Lana [owner of the property where the phones were dumped] receives a threatening phone call and told not to use the toilet.[33]
23.00 Mechanic arrives for broken down car. Gianfranco Lombardo was called between 22.30-22.40. He left his house in Bastia and arrived within 15 to 20 minutes. In a previous verbale he had said he arrived at about 11pm. It took him 10 to 15 minutes to load up the car and document it. He finished the job at about 23:15. He noted the gate of via della Pergola was open, and there was a car parked there, probably of a dark color. Parked car belonged to a friend of Pasqualino Coletta. Lombardo didn’t see any lights on in the house. He left at the latest at 23:20 and didn’t notice anybody pass by on the road or hear any screams etc.[35] The CCTV shows Lombardo arriving at 11.14pm and the tow truck remains stationary to 11.24pm [time adjusted forward 10mins][36]
23.30 Time approximate: Nara Capezzali claims to have heard a scream.[40]

That's fine as far as it goes. I would point out, police believe the Naruto cartoon was an autodownload and didn't need human interaction (similar to when say McAfee starts scanning without any help from one). In addition, Ms Capezzali time is an estimate by her based on her previous experience of her diuretic medicine.

ETA I note you have carefully evaded what the pair did between 16:00 and circa (approximate time) 17:45.

Raff said he came home alone. Both Amanda and Raff have been extremely evasive about this part of the evening. Amanda and Kokomani were pinged in the old town area and Rudy was also known to be there. When asked why he bought nothing, Raff said they suddenly realised they had all the provisions they needed so went back home.

In her prison diary timeline, Amanda skipped 16:00 - 18:00 completely.

 

[query grind]

That's fine as far as it goes. I would point out, ppolice believe the Naruto cartoon was an autodownload and didn't need human interaction

a. The police have never said that and
b. It was downloaded on the 14th October 2007 19:05
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-co...ffaele-Sollecito-Computer-Expert-Report-3.png

PMF are just as appalling with dealing with evidence as FOA

 

[bagels]

My understanding is her then boyfriend - or his associates - asked her to lie about it. And his motive was because he had been involved in the clean-up.

lol wtf

Nencini correctly observes the most likely explanation for the 13:22 is an early drive past before ringing control to put them through to Amanda Knox.

This assumes the carabinieri drove right by the cottage they were looking for, on the wrong side of the road, angled into its driveway as if parking, and failed to notice the small crowd gathered standing around outside that had summoned them, and that the male figure that walks in front of the camera with a distinctive bold stripe running vertically down his pants, similar to the carabinieri uniform which features a distinctive bold stripe running vertically down their pants, is not in fact a carabinieri officer.

In other words, it's Nencini being his typical idiotic self. You can believe it if you like, you'd be in the company of a lot of morons on this case.

 

[Sergei Walankov]

On amandaknoxcase.com, it says Massei rejected the prosecution's argument that Sollecito conducted phone calls while the police were present, and cites pages 25 and 89 - but I'm unable to look further into that because the site is down. Is QG suggesting Massei didn't rely on the clock being out to reach this conclusion? My reaction to the bit about Purton's boyfriend is as per Bagels.

 

[Vixen]

a. The police have never said that and
b. It was downloaded on the 14th October 2007 19:05
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/wp-co...ffaele-Sollecito-Computer-Expert-Report-3.png

PMF are just as appalling with dealing with evidence as FOA

AIUI It was downloaded via a shared P2P file.

 

[query grind]

On amandaknoxcase.com, it says Massei rejected the prosecution's argument that Sollecito conducted phone calls while the police were present, and cites pages 25 and 89 - but I'm unable to look further into that because the site is down. Is QG suggesting Massei didn't rely on the clock being out to reach this conclusion?

Perhaps Massei found it too difficult to make an equivocal finding either way and so defaulted to the defense position. Anyway there are plenty of copies of Massei floating around the internet for you to check

My reaction to the bit about Purton's boyfriend is as per Bagels.

Fair enough, I would say it is my opinion, not proven fact. But I put forward my opinion to encourage those who will know whether it is fact or not - namely Amanda Knox and Rudy Guede - to feel empowered to confirm it if it is true. Neither your opinion or mine count for anything in this matter

The problem that you and bagels have is you have never investigated this case beyond the narrow confines of the defense presentation. So you probably don't know the following:
a. Who Purton's boyfriend was
b. Who his employer was
c. Who the brother of his employer was
d. What organization these two brothers are widely rumored to head in Perugia
e. The type of contraband this organization controls in Perugia
f. The fact that early newspaper reports had someone matching the description of this boyfriend running through the carpark around 11:00
g. The fact that someone matching the description of this boyfriend was seen washing Nikes in a laudromat and hiding something in a rubbish dump.

When you include all this information then the motivations of Ms Purton don't seem so peculiar after all.

Vixen

AIUI It was downloaded via a shared P2P file.

Look at the link I provided you, the file was created on the 14th of October.

 

[bagels]

The problem that you and bagels have is you have never investigated this case beyond the narrow confines of the defense presentation.

It's more correct to say I have never investigated this case beyond the confines of the prosecution and defense presentations, with the available evidence presented by both sides. And since my only interest in this case is understanding why PGP believe Amanda Knox shoved a 30 cm kitchen knife into Meredith's neck, an event that clearly didn't occur, I don't have an interest in extraneous theories about the Perugian mafia or whatever you're interested in.

Of course you're free to discuss that here, but it wont make the CCTV clock run on time.

 

[Sergei Walankov]

I plead guilty to not having "investigated" Sophie Purton's boyfriend, but I'm confident I'm not Robinson Crusoe in this regard. Now we've got the egotistical condescension out of the way, perhaps Bagels and I might be offered a little more illumination on the matter.

 

[query grind]

I plead guilty to not having "investigated" Sophie Purton's boyfriend, but I'm confident I'm not Robinson Crusoe in this regard. Now we've got the egotistical condescension out of the way, perhaps Bagels and I might be offered a little more illumination on the matter.

Fair enough.
Her boyfriend, short term since she left Perugia as soon as she could, was Hicham Khiri.
Hicham Khiri's employer was Gennaro Crugliano. Gennaro Crugliano's brother was Daniele Crugliano who ran Merlin. The Cruglianos were arrested late 2014 for being the local heads of the 'Ndrangheta.
The 'Ndrangheta controlled the cocaine trade in Perugia.

I think Daniele Crugliano was who Rudy Guede referred to in his German diary
"Daniele “My Captain” "

Elsewhere Guede writes this

What the ◊◊◊◊ happened? Speak the truth. What are you hiding? If it wasn't Raffaele, who was there on that night? One of your many druggie-lovers you were bringing home? Was he someone from the "Merlin," "Domus," was it all of you downstairs?

druggie-lovers = Daniele de Luna
Merlin/Domus = Crugliano brothers
Downstairs = Giacomo and Stefano.

Probably not the most tactful way to bring up the subject of Daniele de Luna, but since Knox's silence was going to mean Guede would spent 8 years and counting in prison, I guess he can be excused a bit of political incorrectness

 

[Vixen]

Massei had his head up his behind. One, cannot determine conclusively where the cell phone was located at 10:13. You can only determine for sure that it was within line of sight of the specific antenna. In this case the Wind antenna. Which the cottage was. But so was the park close to the city gate near Rudy's apartment. So it could have been near either place.

However, the Wind antenna is 10 times further away than the Piazza Lupatelli antenna.
There is computer called a base station that routes cellular traffic to the best antenna according to strength of signal. The Piazza Lupatelli antenna handled almost all the cell traffic at the cottage although a few calls also were handled by the next closest antenna Aquila, which was just a little further away than Lupatelli.

This call was handled by the Wind antenna probably because the line of sight to the Lupatelli antenna was blocked by the high thick stone city wall overshadowing the Park.

But, i guess its easier to believe Massei than think for yourself.

It's not a question of 'believing' Massei, or any judge. A judge doesn't claim to be expert in everything, which is why they call in expert witnesses from both sides. It is extremely tough deciding which expert's view is more likely than another, especially when each are top of their field and passionate about their theory. Of course, judges are aware some experts are being paid to slant their views, albeit ethically in most cases, and they will also bear in mind the prosecution side overstating their case.

Massei is not a 'just a local judge', he'd be the equivalent of an Old Bailey judge in England and Wales (Queen's Bench). To get where his is, he'd have to demonstrate good sharp judgement, and probably has a few masters and a PhD in law.

Whilst most people believe it was Rudy who disposed of the phones, it has to be borne in mind this is only an opinion and not a proven fact.

There is no doubt the antennae that picked up later calls to the two phones - many from Mez' father, John - were different from the earlier call out at circa 22:13 AIUI.

 

[bagels]

There is no doubt the antennae that picked up later calls to the two phones - many from Mez' father, John - were different from the earlier call out at circa 22:13 AIUI.

We need the data on what phone calls, if any, from the cottage used the Ponte Rio antenna. Then we need data on what antennae service Rudy's apartment, and what antennae service Lana's garden, before we can begin to converge on a probable answer. AFAIK we only have some of this necessary information. I would be interested in any docs that have more.

 

[Vixen]

My interest was captured a bit before yours was. Mine was during the acquittal. I hate the idea that an acquittal by a jury can be overturned. I also became concerned with the idea that they could extradite her (although my personal opinion is that it would have been not politically expedient in the end.)

It is highly unlikely they would even have been granted the privilege of an appeal hearing in the USA.

 

[bagels]

It is highly unlikely they would even have been granted the privilege of an appeal hearing in the USA.

It's also highly unlikely US police would have arrested a female student and her boyfriend for a crime scene that would have lit up the CODIS database with burglar DNA.

But that's neither here nor there.

 

[Grinder]

It's also highly unlikely US police would have arrested a female student and her boyfriend for a crime scene that would have lit up the CODIS database with burglar DNA.

But that's neither here nor there.

You think they had his DNA in a data base for possession and trespass? IIRC they went to his flat and took DNA from a toothbrush.

 

[Grinder]

So wrack your brains, Grinder and see if you can't recall that early article.

ETA: or alternatively rack your brains
http://grammarist.com/usage/rack-wrack/
I shall wait with bated or baited breath

Sorry the only early reading I did was in English language pubs. The only reference lately I recall was the Skype call but it is possible at that time someone came up with some Italian language articles. If I find that conversation, which revolved around the oddity that Rudi wouldn't have made up a story to cover his semen being found if he had left any behind, I'll let you know.

Perhaps katy_did or one of the other Italian speakers can provide early Italian reports that include what you are asking for.

ETA - I don't recall ever deleting an article on anything and certainly not on this subject.

Could you provide your source on the Sophie relationship and his connections? Thanks in advance.

 

[bagels]

You think they had his DNA in a data base for possession and trespass? IIRC they went to his flat and took DNA from a toothbrush.

In Washington state his arrest probably would have been for either 1st or 2nd degree burglary, both felonies. In truth he would be in jail awaiting trial so Meredith wouldn't have been murdered in the first place.