Continuation Part 20: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Annella]

What is this self-evident "evidence" you refer to? Please cite what exactly is "nice" about Raff and Amanda in respect of how they treated the police, the victim, their family and friends and their wider community. What have they ever done which is not self-serving and with a smirk.

Here are some 'nice' words about Amanda.

Amanda's AP English and Creative Writing teacher weighs in

Kris Johnson was Amanda's senior high school AP English and Creative Writing teacher. She saw Amanda twice a day for one semester, as one of her classes was a full-year class, and once a day the next semester.

"It was very unusual for a kid to take an extra class on top of the AP English class, but Amanda took on the challenge. As a student Amanda was so curious and eager. She not only took a double-English class, she also took Shakespeare," Kris said.

Amanda attended the Jesuit Seattle Prep High School. The school has been around for more than 100 years and is affiliated with universities, including Seattle University.

The school is run with very clear principles. Its mission statement reads: "Faithful to our Catholic and Jesuit tradition, Seattle Prep's mission is to graduate leaders who are intellectually competent, spiritually alive, open to growth, loving and committed to serving the needs of others."

Kris said the school believes in cura personalis, care for the individual, which is why they decided to offer support for Amanda's family, both financially and emotionally.

Amanda and Kris have corresponded for over two years while Amanda has been in jail.

Kris remembers Amanda well. She said, "She was very spunky. She was a whimsical and engaged learner. Amanda was always thinking and was an eager participant in class. She caught my attention early on and would email me questions in the evening when I would challenge her with a project."

"Amanda", she said, "was not a girl who was ever mean in any way. Quite the opposite - she was very kind and wasn't the kind of kid who always had to compete with others. She loved drama and would do goofy drama stuff. I can still picture her skipping down the hallway with a friend singing 'we're off to see the wizard.' She was great in terms of getting along with everyone and working in groups."

"I remember," Kris said, "other kids liked working with her because she was always kind and always pulled her own weight."

Kris remembers Amanda as somewhat of a tomboy, she didn't dress in a provocative way. She mostly wore jeans and t-shirts. She loved to play. She thinks soccer and drama were Amanda's favorites.

"She has been brave and courageous through everything. She keeps her faith in humanity, believing people are good. She has a tremendous amount of trust, even now. I think her trust and innocence is what got her into this."

"I'm very sad over this. I ache that a person like Amanda is in this situation," Kris said.

"I can't get over the strange frenzy people are in about this case, it's so odd. I think it has a lot to do with electronic media. They take things out of context. They've taken a nice girl and portrayed her in a negative light. I hold the media responsible for that," she said.

"I know from the letters I receive from Amanda that she feels horrible for what her family is going through. She is sad that’s others who are in prison don't have people advocating for them the way she does. She is not the person the media has portrayed her to be," Kris said.

Amanda wrote a paper on the feminist movement and the idea of Amanda hating women, Kris said, is contrary to who she was in high school. Kris does not believe she could have changed in that short of an amount of time.

"I know I might end up being targeted for speaking out, but there's another side to this and I feel I need to share my point of view," she said.

Looking back now and seeing how this has progressed, it initially stemmed from photos the media found on Amanda's MySpace and Facebook pages. Without knowing what the photos were about, or the context in which they were taken, media twisted the truth to make Amanda look like a dark, sex-driven, evil person. Completely opposite of the person she really is.

We can learn from Amanda's case the importance of stressing to our children, teens, and even learning from this as adults, that what you put on the Internet can be seen by the entire world and can be taken completely out of context.

 

[Grinder]

The Times and The New York Post in 2008. Rolling Stone in 2010 (?). Almost everybody in late fall 2011. I'm done.

Nothing, okay.

 

[Bill Williams]

Nothing, okay.

Because they are airheads or because they've been bought off by the FOA?

 

[Grinder]

Because they are airheads or because they've been bought off by the FOA?

Because there isn't anything there. This discussion started about claims by FOA that Mignini called the murder a satanic rite from the beginning. Over the years you have repeated the meme but never have provided proof.

Barbie is an airhead and to use her repeating of the meme is sad. `What a giant straw man the buying off pucky is. I have never implied, said or in any way communicated the FOA bought off anyone. Not even you

 

[Bill Williams]

Because there isn't anything there. This discussion started about claims by FOA that Mignini called the murder a satanic rite from the beginning. Over the years you have repeated the meme but never have provided proof.

Barbie is an airhead and to use her repeating of the meme is sad. `What a giant straw man the buying off pucky is. I have never implied, said or in any way communicated the FOA bought off anyone. Not even you

What I find boring is the constant claim of "cite" when you could do it yourself. When I came into this media wss citing The Times and the New York Post as writing about this in 2008.

You have such a jaded view of early FOA is hard to say anything about it which you would not regard as strawman. Nadeau as an airhead is irrelevant - she wrote about it. Once again, Mach admitted "riti" was used early on but argued it did not mean "ritual".

There is stuff there. You just dismiss each example. I could do your work for you, you'd just dismiss that!

It's why it was boring the last time you and I went around this.

 

[Vixen]

Here are some 'nice' words about Amanda.

Faint praise indeed.

So going to a Jesuit school is supposedly proof of 'niceness'.

Excerpt:
Vincent Bugliosi, chief prosecutor in the Charlie Manson case:

The other thing that terrified the nation so much is when the identity of the killers became known. And who were they? Young kids from average American homes with fairly good backgrounds. There was a feeling that this could be our own children.

Tex Watson, Manson’s “chief lieutenant” at the murder scene, was from Farmersville, Texas, hometown of World War II hero Audie Murphy. Watson was a football, basketball, and track star. He had almost an A average in high school. And when the people in Farmersville learned he was being charged with these murders, the general consensus was this is absolutely impossible, it must be a case of mistaken identity.

Patricia Krenwinkel—another one of the main killers—her father was an insurance executive; she sang in the church choir; got good grades in school; at one time she even wanted to attend a Jesuit college in Alabama. Leslie Van Houten—another killer—she was a homecoming princess at Monrovia High School here in L.A.

[ends]

Source: http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php..._cases_of_nice_girls_who_killed_with_little_/


How is 'skipping down a hallway singing, We're off to see the wizard' proof of 'niceness'?

 

[acbytesla]

Faint praise indeed.

So going to a Jesuit school is supposedly proof of 'niceness'.

Excerpt:
Vincent Bugliosi, chief prosecutor in the Charlie Manson case:

The other thing that terrified the nation so much is when the identity of the killers became known. And who were they? Young kids from average American homes with fairly good backgrounds. There was a feeling that this could be our own children.

Tex Watson, Manson’s “chief lieutenant” at the murder scene, was from Farmersville, Texas, hometown of World War II hero Audie Murphy. Watson was a football, basketball, and track star. He had almost an A average in high school. And when the people in Farmersville learned he was being charged with these murders, the general consensus was this is absolutely impossible, it must be a case of mistaken identity.

Patricia Krenwinkel—another one of the main killers—her father was an insurance executive; she sang in the church choir; got good grades in school; at one time she even wanted to attend a Jesuit college in Alabama. Leslie Van Houten—another killer—she was a homecoming princess at Monrovia High School here in L.A.

[ends]

Source: http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php..._cases_of_nice_girls_who_killed_with_little_/


How is 'skipping down a hallway singing, We're off to see the wizard' proof of 'niceness'?

Seriously? You're comparing The Manson family to Amanda?

There is no hope for you.

 

[Bill Williams]

The claim that used to be contentious about Barbie Nadeau and her mention of the Satan-rite theory, was her other claim that Maneula Comodi (co-prosecutor with Mignini) threatened t quit the case if he went to trial with it.

Other than Nadeau, airhead or not, there is no one else who claims this.

 

[Grinder]

What I find boring is the constant claim of "cite" when you could do it yourself. When I came into this media wss citing The Times and the New York Post as writing about this in 2008.

Bill when Vixen or anybody makes a statement you disagree with a cite is requested.

I've looked for this "satanic rite" quote of Mignini for years. I've looked for the alleged Comodi saying she wouldn't go forward if Mignini didn't drop the satanic rite motive. I've read you arguing with Mach and others and have yet to see a cite from any credible source. Not a blog post by Barbie or CD but a legitimate paper or TV news show. Obviously a court document would be the best.

You have such a jaded view of early FOA is hard to say anything about it which you would not regard as strawman(sic). Nadeau as an airhead is irrelevant - she wrote about it. Once again, Mach admitted "riti" was used early on but argued it did not mean "ritual".

May I quote Barbie and get your agreement that what she said was accurate? She wrote so much drivel how can you pull out this and say "must be right"?

Since you have no idea what FOA was like early on I don't know how you say I'm jaded. Right or wrong there was a war from the beginning. Most accurate but some not so much and everything to the extreme.

There is stuff there. You just dismiss each example. I could do your work for you, you'd just dismiss that!
/QUOTE]

What example? You just say so and so or this pub said satanic rite but you don't provide the article or source link.

I've also asked Vixen to produce exactly what Mignini said and I'm interested to hear from her or you. She gives links but they are to Italian docs from well after that early time.

 

[bagels]

Faint praise indeed.

So going to a Jesuit school is supposedly proof of 'niceness'.

Excerpt:
Vincent Bugliosi, chief prosecutor in the Charlie Manson case:

The other thing that terrified the nation so much is when the identity of the killers became known. And who were they? Young kids from average American homes with fairly good backgrounds. There was a feeling that this could be our own children.

Tex Watson, Manson’s “chief lieutenant” at the murder scene, was from Farmersville, Texas, hometown of World War II hero Audie Murphy. Watson was a football, basketball, and track star. He had almost an A average in high school. And when the people in Farmersville learned he was being charged with these murders, the general consensus was this is absolutely impossible, it must be a case of mistaken identity.

Patricia Krenwinkel—another one of the main killers—her father was an insurance executive; she sang in the church choir; got good grades in school; at one time she even wanted to attend a Jesuit college in Alabama. Leslie Van Houten—another killer—she was a homecoming princess at Monrovia High School here in L.A.

[ends]

Source: http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php..._cases_of_nice_girls_who_killed_with_little_/


How is 'skipping down a hallway singing, We're off to see the wizard' proof of 'niceness'?

A moment ago you were arguing that Amanda displayed obviously anti-social traits. When that didn't pan out now it's that even the nicest of girls could be a secret psycho. The goalpost is always shifting.

The fact is there is no motive. None at all. The proposed jealousy motive is absurd and also clearly a case of the PGP projecting.

If Amanda killed Meredith she's a psychopath that did it for thrills, for the experience of killing. It's not an unheard of crime. But the logistical problems remain, never mind the lack of evidence. She managed to find and recruit a murder partner within five days who spoke a different language. Together they managed to sucker in the town burglar into raping their victim and walking around in her blood. Meredith's wounds suggest a subdued victim held at knifepoint and then quickly jabbed in one action. You'd expect a pack of wild killers to stab her over and over again. It's almost as if her assaulter was a single male trying to silence his rape victim. But that would merely be another example of the thousands of male on female sexual violence that occurs each and every year. Boring.

 

[Sonia]

Only an aside, it seems it isn't just Mignini, but Italy. They have given part of their country to a religion that is the most cultish of major religions IMO and they seem to be obsessed with the occult, Masons etc.

There is no doubt that many theories involving sex were out there from very early on. Sex game gone bad was the first I remember, which along with "we questioned her until she buckled and told us what we knew to be correct" were the red flag rockets that made very skeptical from the beginning.

Now we have a major TV show broadcasting Rudi and his story, quoting from the verdict stating M&B said Amanda was there and washed her hands of Meredith's blood and no media, I've seen to date, has questioned it. Italy currently seems to be a very backward country with the oddest of beliefs. Yes they were advanced once, but then so were the Mayans.

You're overthinking this. To me, it seems obvious that the media in Italy is not "questioning" Rudy's fictions or the fine points of the final verdict because at last an injustice has been corrected and now it's OVER.

Italy understands that the court wrote what it wrote because it had to, due to the way its trial system is structured. Now everyone is moving on.

 

[Vixen]

Seriously? You're comparing The Manson family to Amanda?

There is no hope for you.

Nope, the point being made is that 'nice kids' do do horrible things.

 

[Vixen]

A moment ago you were arguing that Amanda displayed obviously anti-social traits. When that didn't pan out now it's that even the nicest of girls could be a secret psycho. The goalpost is always shifting.

The fact is there is no motive. None at all. The proposed jealousy motive is absurd and also clearly a case of the PGP projecting.

If Amanda killed Meredith she's a psychopath that did it for thrills, for the experience of killing. It's not an unheard of crime. But the logistical problems remain, never mind the lack of evidence. She managed to find and recruit a murder partner within five days who spoke a different language. Together they managed to sucker in the town burglar into raping their victim and walking around in her blood. Meredith's wounds suggest a subdued victim held at knifepoint and then quickly jabbed in one action. You'd expect a pack of wild killers to stab her over and over again. It's almost as if her assaulter was a single male trying to silence his rape victim. But that would merely be another example of the thousands of male on female sexual violence that occurs each and every year. Boring.

Not really. If you look at the injuries, one knife wound was to the left neck (by a right handed person probably) and one to the right neck. Identical to a pic in vampire-slaying manga. There are dozens of knife prick to Mez' arms and hands. Oh, really, did Raff write in his prison diary he might have pricked Mez' hand whilst they were cooking at his apartment, whilst at the same time Amanda told police Mez had never been there? Also, ladies size hand prints on Mez' face and neck.

You carry on with your fond myth of the local burglar armed with three different knives and no burglary.

 

[bagels]

Not really. If you look at the injuries, one knife wound was to the left neck (by a right handed person probably) and one to the right neck. Identical to a pic in vampire-slaying manga. There are dozens of knife prick to Mez' arms and hands. Oh, really, did Raff write in his prison diary he might have pricked Mez' hand whilst they were cooking at his apartment, whilst at the same time Amanda told police Mez had never been there? Also, ladies size hand prints on Mez' face and neck.

You carry on with your fond myth of the local burglar armed with three different knives and no burglary.

The forensic examination of the body lead the police to believe Meredith was killed by a single small penknife.

"Luca Lalli, a pathologist who carried out a post-mortem examination, said Miss Kercher was killed with a penknife."

 

[LondonJohn]

The forensic examination of the body lead the police to believe Meredith was killed by a single small penknife.

"Luca Lalli, a pathologist who carried out a post-mortem examination, said Miss Kercher was killed with a penknife."

Indeed. All the incision wounds are wholly compatible with the use of one knife, with a single-edged blade, a blade length of around 8-10cm, and a blade width of around 1.5cm.

It's SOLELY because the prosecutors needed to position Sollecito's kitchen knife as a knife used in the murder that this "multiple knives" nonsense ever started. And of course the reason why the prosecutors had no choice but to propose multiple knives (given that they needed Sollecito's kitchen knife to be involved) was that Sollecito's kitchen knife was simply too large to have caused one of the major wounds. And thus was borne the mendacious rubbish of two (or more) knives - in order to allow for Sollecito's knife to have made the larger wound, and for another (necessarily much smaller) knife to have caused the other main wound.

However, it's perfectly likely that the same smaller knife that made the smaller wound also inflicted the large wound. In fact, it's much MORE likely that a much smaller knife than Sollecito's kitchen knife made this large wound, because at the skin margins of this wound there are signs of bruises and other marks consistent with either a knife hilt or the hand holding the knife. This strongly suggests that in the course of inflicting this large wound - which had a depth of around 8-10cm - the knife was inserted right up to its hilt, so that either the hilt or the hand hit the surrounding skin. And if this is the case, that would categorically exclude Sollecito's kitchen knife, since its blade had a length of around 17cm.

In addition to all of this, one would struggle to find any precedent for a knife crime involving more than one perpetrator where more than one knife was being held to the victim's throat simultaneously (as the prosecutors strangely argued). In addition to the sheer physical difficulty of two or more people positioning themselves in the required way to all hold a knife to the victim's throat, they would all also have the others' blades in close proximity to their own hands. The risk of one perpetrator cutting/stabbing another in the hand would be significantly high. If there are ever situations where multiple perps with multiple knives are restraining a single victim, then it would be far more likely for one person to hold a knife to the victim's throat, then for another person to hold a knife to the victim's torso, and so on.

But that previous paragraph is just a rather anecdotal sidebar. The important point here is that all the wounds are fully consistent with having been inflicted by the same small knife (probably a penknife, flick knife, switch blade or similar) with a blade length of around 8-10cm and width of around 1.5cm. And another important point is that the large wound is far more compatible with such a blade size/shape (owing to the bruising and the depth of the wound) than it is with a knife the size/shape of Sollecito's kitchen knife.

In conclusion, it's extremely likely that just one knife was used to make all the wounds that killed Meredith Kercher. And it was held and wielded by Rudy Guede.

 

[Mr Fied]

Not really. If you look at the injuries, one knife wound was to the left neck (by a right handed person probably) and one to the right neck. Identical to a pic in vampire-slaying manga. There are dozens of knife prick to Mez' arms and hands. Oh, really, did Raff write in his prison diary he might have pricked Mez' hand whilst they were cooking at his apartment, whilst at the same time Amanda told police Mez had never been there? Also, ladies size hand prints on Mez' face and neck. You carry on with your fond myth of the local burglar armed with three different knives and no burglary.

Really?

Let's not let facts get in the way of a good story.

 

[Vixen]

Bill when Vixen or anybody makes a statement you disagree with a cite is requested.

I've looked for this "satanic rite" quote of Mignini for years. I've looked for the alleged Comodi saying she wouldn't go forward if Mignini didn't drop the satanic rite motive. I've read you arguing with Mach and others and have yet to see a cite from any credible source. Not a blog post by Barbie or CD but a legitimate paper or TV news show. Obviously a court document would be the best.



May I quote Barbie and get your agreement that what she said was accurate? She wrote so much drivel how can you pull out this and say "must be right"?

Since you have no idea what FOA was like early on I don't know how you say I'm jaded. Right or wrong there was a war from the beginning. Most accurate but some not so much and everything to the extreme.

There is stuff there. You just dismiss each example. I could do your work for you, you'd just dismiss that!

What example? You just say so and so or this pub said satanic rite but you don't provide the article or source link.

I've also asked Vixen to produce exactly what Mignini said and I'm interested to hear from her or you. She gives links but they are to Italian docs from well after that early time.

A relevant excerpt of what case Mignini presented, is as follows (preliminary hearing):

Excerpt:
There is a set of factors "in play" to the tragedy * the condition of all three defendants as consumers of drugs and, therefore, the alteration of the normal parameters of behavior and the consequent need for money (of which Meredith has) *
To this is added, for the reconstruction of the personality of the three defendants (of Amanda and Raffaele which we will return to later), the undeniable trend of these subjects (especially Sollecito) in the reading of particularly violent stories, especially the manga " Blood the Last Vampire ", comic found in the home of Sollecito, containing extreme scenes of violence and sex, as well as the marked predilection for all types of knives; with respect to Amanda, we must remember the story written a year before the murder, wherein she described the homicide of a student (also subjected to sexual violence) with a kitchen knife * the young man dies drinking his blood * re Guede, it must be recalled a video in which he plays the part of a vampire and the 'habit of circulating with a switchblade *

This is a bit 'the most striking and impressive aspect of this story: namely the fact that heinous and cruel crimes that were once reserved for very special types of criminals, today, a form of leveling of criminal phenomena in the whole community for the saturated atmosphere of violence and brutality that reigns on television, in movies and on some publishing (see, precisely, brochures classes found in this survey it seems photographed the murder of Meredith) of that cruelty become capable to young people that some have called, referring mainly to Knox and Sollecito, "the kids next door".

Tavernese Francis, head of the university Section dell'ONAOSI, as we shall see, recalled that Raffaele was a fan of Marilyn Manson and that another frequenter of the college had told him that he was troubled by the fact that the same was an aficionado of erotic movies of really violent content , those so-called "extreme sex" (vds. dich. of 5/22/08)

But the reality that emerges from this story is this. We must take note.
The night between the first and the second share a feature: Meredith and Amanda were alone in the house, for the first time in their university coexistence. There were no Italian guys downstairs and there was neither nor Filomena Romanelli Laura Mezzetti. It was the first, the only night when they could drag that girl, who was committed and in love with the "boyfriend" Giacomo Silenzi, as well as attached to her family, and especially to her mother and the English girls, into a "world of its own," in a perverse group sex game, in which one might have also taken possession of the money that Meredith, always punctual, should have paid after the "Bank Holiday", ie the following Monday, November 5, that what drives the three organizing the "feast" is a sexual motivation, with plausible roots in the anime comic of which the three possessed.

It should be noted that, in any event, the subjects, morbidly attracted by commingling sex and violence, is far-rooted in the connection of the project to the tradition of Halloween, because if it is true that the night between October 31 and November 1 was passed (and Meredith had spent it with her fellow friends), it is equally true that, at 21:00 about the November 1 and for the next three hours, it was still in All Saints day and what was not able to be achieved on the night of the eve of the Saints Holiday, could be realized in the following night during the Holiday of the Dead.

They could not let this occasion escape.

Guede entered the apartment on Via della Pergola along with Amanda and Raffaele, probably shortly after Meredith had returned from dinner with friends.
It is seen that Guede has finally admitted that, in fact, he had no appointment with Meredith. How then to explain his solitary episode in a house that was so totally contiguous to the old town, but it was definitely off the beaten path, near a street, in the countryside, leading into the valley of the Tiber, near Ponte Felcino? Go there to do what? Meredith, in addition to being reserved, was also tired and eager to sleep, she would definitely not be open to it, this is a fact. Rudi entered the house because he was together with Amanda and Sollecito. Amanda lives there, has the keys, the guys used to access the house. Rudi could not be inside with her, and was maybe aroused by the sexual attraction he felt (and provoked) for the Seattle girl.
[ends]

 

[Vixen]

The forensic examination of the body lead the police to believe Meredith was killed by a single small penknife.

"Luca Lalli, a pathologist who carried out a post-mortem examination, said Miss Kercher was killed with a penknife."

From Evidence Overview True Justice for Meredith Kercher:

quote:
Area 1: The Wounds
Posted by The Wiki Team

1. Evidence Points

Sources: Trial testimony
11-01 Meredith Kercher sustained 43 wounds during the assault that killed her. (Perna closing arguments 2009)

1-02 She had 10 knife wounds and 33 other wounds. (Lalli 2009)

1-03 She had at least 15 bruises: on her mouth, nose, cheeks, jaw, neck, elbows, right forearm, small of her back, left thigh, and right lower leg. The bruises indicate she was not only restrained, but also kept from screaming for help. (Lalli 2009)

1-04 Some of the bruising on Ms. Kercher was in the shape of fingertips, with some fingertips being smaller, of a woman’s size. There were no ligature marks. (Lalli, Marchionni, Codispoti 2009)

1-05 Some of the neck bruises indicate Ms. Kercher was being choked at some point during the assault. (Liviero 2009)

1-06 The internal vaginal bruising suffered by Ms. Kercher happened before her death and was violent. (Lalli, Marchionni 2009)

1-07 She had only 2 major knife wounds, one on each side of her neck. The remaining knife wounds were minor. (Lalli 2009)

1-08 The wound on the right side of her neck was narrow and deep. The wound on the left side of her neck was wide, large, gaping and fatal. These two wounds were likely made with two different knives. (Bacci, Politi, Codispoti, Mignini 2009)

1-09 She had another knife cut just below the gaping wound on the left side of her neck. (Lalli 2009)

1-10 She had 3 other glancing knife wounds on her neck and cheeks. (Lalli 2009)

1-11 She had 3 small cuts on her right hand and one small cut on her left hand. (Lalli 2009)

1-12 Her defensive wounds were virtually non-existent, especially when compared with other single-attacker knife attacks, where knife wounds on the hands and arms are prevalent. (Cingolani, Codispoti 2009)

1-13 The wounds were compatible with an assault by multiple persons (Cingolani, Codispoti, Lalli, Liviero 2009).

1-14 Bacci, Lalli and Liviero testified that the wounds could not be ascribed with 100% certainty to a single person or multiple person assault. However Lalli and Liviero preferred the multiple person assault scenario, given the quantity and different types of wounds. (Bacci, Lalli, Liviero 2009)

1-15 Lalli confirmed under questioning by Judge Massei that if the rape happened during the assault, then the assault had to be carried out by more than one person. (Lalli 2009)


http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/evidenceoverview

 

[bagels]

Yes Rudy really got her good. Thanks for clarifying his violence against a defenseless woman in her own home.

 

[acbytesla]

Nope, the point being made is that 'nice kids' do do horrible things.

The original question was Amanda really nice. Not whether or not if kids from middle class backgrounds could grow up to do horrible things.

I'm glad you're not comparing the experiences of the Manson Family and that of Amanda Knox. Because they don't compare. The Mansons had been living in a quasi commune but instead of "working" the Spahn ranch they were burglarizing homes (like Rudy) No one had an actual job or learning a third language (like Amanda) or going to college (like Amanda and Raffaele) The Mansons all knew each other well actually living together and all spoke the same language. The drug use doesn't compare either even though you continue to represent Knox as a druggie because of her occasional use of cannabis. The Mansons were constantly taking anything and everything including heavy use of psychedelics particularly LSD and Peyote.

It really matters little what the Mansons were like when they were children, it was clear to everyone they weren't anything like that when they were arrested. They came off totally crazy, something no one would say about Amanda or Raffaele.

I've never seen a real life crime anything like the one that you and the other guilters suggest happened.

Maybe you should reconsider.