Continuation Part 20: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[acbytesla]

Please quit planting straw men.

The truth hurts?

 

[christianahannah]

Well I have no idea so I will defer to you.

I know my thoughts and words can be quite confusing (sorry) but if you read through the document (it is over 100 pages) Rudy is mentioned very prominently and frequently within. This is what leads me to believe it is from the 2008 preliminary hearing (which was also Rudy's fast track trial). I have not read the entire document though.

 

[acbytesla]

NotEvenWrong, please can you make an effort to not misquote me. At no time have I said it was a pagan sex murder or that any witches were involved. Given the murder happened around halloween, of course detectives have to consider a possibility of people taking role playing a bit too seriously. People do murder for trivial reason, for example the movie Scream spawned thrill killings http://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/nov/18/filmnews.film.

It is a logical fallacy to claim it is not possible that the kids could have committed such a crime. It simply doesn't follow that it is logically true.

Nice kids do commit crimes with no motive that make sense to the rest of us:

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php..._cases_of_nice_girls_who_killed_with_little_/

Usually they don't. By far, that is the norm. The evidence proves that these two nice kids were not the exception, not the sociopathic freaks you keep trying to draw that way.

 

[NotEvenWrong]

NotEvenWrong, please can you make an effort to not misquote me. At no time have I said it was a pagan sex murder or that any witches were involved. Given the murder happened around halloween, of course detectives have to consider a possibility of people taking role playing a bit too seriously. People do murder for trivial reason, for example the movie Scream spawned thrill killings http://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/nov/18/filmnews.film.

It is a logical fallacy to claim it is not possible that the kids could have committed such a crime. It simply doesn't follow that it is logically true.

Nice kids do commit crimes with no motive that make sense to the rest of us:

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php..._cases_of_nice_girls_who_killed_with_little_/

Vixen,
Speaking of strawmen.

It is of course possible for the kids to have committed the crime in question.

But that is not what I said (hence the strawman. You sure are good at projection!). What I said was:

It is NOT possible for a scenario to have occurred where the kids committed the crime that is consistent with the known evidence. This is because there was zero evidence in the murder room (probability of that happening and them being involved (while evidence of Guede remains) is ~0%). Combine that with the nonexistent prior probability of them teaming up with a burglar they don't know for a pagan gang bang murder and your scenario is laughable. Extraordinary claims of Halloween Satan murders require extraordinary evidence, Vixen. Zero evidence means it didn't happen. Good thing they have tons of evidence against the actual burglar/murderer so all the rational people actually know what happened.

 

[Vixen]

Usually they don't. By far, that is the norm. The evidence proves that these two nice kids were not the exception, not the sociopathic freaks you keep trying to draw that way.

What is this self-evident "evidence" you refer to? Please cite what exactly is "nice" about Raff and Amanda in respect of how they treated the police, the victim, their family and friends and their wider community. What have they ever done which is not self-serving and with a smirk.

 

[Vixen]

Vixen,
Speaking of strawmen.

It is of course possible for the kids to have committed the crime in question.

But that is not what I said (hence the strawman. You sure are good at projection!). What I said was:

It is NOT possible for a scenario to have occurred where the kids committed the crime that is consistent with the known evidence. This is because there was zero evidence in the murder room (probability of that happening and them being involved (while evidence of Guede remains) is ~0%). Combine that with the nonexistent prior probability of them teaming up with a burglar they don't know for a pagan gang bang murder and your scenario is laughable. Extraordinary claims of Halloween Satan murders require extraordinary evidence, Vixen. Zero evidence means it didn't happen. Good thing they have tons of evidence again the actual burglar/murderer so all the rational people can actually know what happened.

Nobody has made any such claim. Making hysterical statements does nothing to advance your credibility. The merits courts found the facts showed evidence beyond reasonable doubt that the pair participated with Rudy in the murder. Who do I believe, scientific police who've dealt with thousands of crimes or a couple of politician judges who have never handled a murder case before?

 

[Grinder]

I know my thoughts and words can be quite confusing (sorry) but if you read through the document (it is over 100 pages) Rudy is mentioned very prominently and frequently within. This is what leads me to believe it is from the 2008 preliminary hearing (which was also Rudy's fast track trial). I have not read the entire document though.

No I've found you clear and helpful for years. I can't the Italian and have no desire to muddle through Google translates.

I don't believe Mignini ever went on record saying Satanic Rite or anything like that but did allude to the date and Halloween. I remember the press talking about a sex game gone bad, which was totally foreign to me.

I do agree with the PGP that this meme was promoted by the FOA/PIP PR using Preston and his MOF story as a battering ram. G-M didn't just set up media interviews.

I don't think it matters one way or the other in the end.

M&B said it just about perfectly. There wasn't enough evidence to convict.

 

[Grinder]

Nobody has made any such claim. Making hysterical statements does nothing to advance your credibility. The merits courts found the facts showed evidence beyond reasonable doubt that the pair participated with Rudy in the murder. Who do I believe, scientific police who've dealt with thousands of crimes or a couple of politician judges who have never handled a murder case before?

Massei also moved the time Curatolo from just before midnight to 23 to 23:30 because of buses leaving by then but didn't know they didn't run that Thursday (glad you finally got the day correct) so based his judgment in part on a fallacy. Massei is and was a fool. Nothing but a lifetime bureaucrat judge.

 

[NotEvenWrong]

NotEvenWrong, you are quite wrong. Mignini has never used the term ritual re the Kercher murder. You might think satanism does not exist, but during the trial the cottage was broken into a couple of times. On one occasion, the perp left a knife on the kitchen table, one pointing towards the murder room and there were wax marks from a candle.

Police were right to consider all theories as the black cat downstairs was found to be bleeding, it happened on a Thursday night, said to be the satanists' sabbath, and Raff did express an interest in the occult, via Marilyn Manson, who did inspire the Columbine college killings, not to mention manga vampire slaying, which, in Japan, traditionally happens, guess when?, Halloween, no matter how preposterous you personally might think the idea.

Italy has its problems with poverty, high unemployment, large families crammed in together, not to mention serious organised crime and boat people trafficking. However, it is not a 'backward country'. It is highly civilised. The best parts of the Victoria & Albert Museum for me is the Italian Renaissance section (sculptures), likewise, the art galleries and British Museum. I am not a Catholic but I love to walk around the Catholic cathedrals such as Westminster, St Albans (might be protestant High Anglican) or Canterbury. There is no way being religious makes it backward. In fact, here in London a bunch of atheists have set up a secular church where atheists can meet up to sing pop songs together, so jealous are they of the high culture of choral music.

Italy has massive crucifixes on the walls of their courts and schools, but then it is home to the Pope, and catholicism has always shown remnants of the old pagan panopoly of Roman gods and goddesses, now reinvented as the saints and the Virgin Mary. That is not so different from the divine right of kings remants on British Court walls, "Mon dieu et mon droit". Everywhere we go, we are reminded it all belongs to Her Majesty the Queen, including prisons, postal service, the armed forces, etc, etc, and you must admit, the UK is one of the most civilised countries in the world, if not the most.

Given Amanda's obsession with sex, the murder probably did have something to do with it. It is not "slut-shaming" (in the UK a slut is simply a slovenly woman, bad at housekeeping, our word would be "slag"). I mention it because irresponsible promiscuity can be a classic symptom of sociopathy.

Nobody has made any such claim (Edit by me -- ???????). Making hysterical statements does nothing to advance your credibility. The merits courts found the facts showed evidence beyond reasonable doubt that the pair participated with Rudy in the murder. Who do I believe, scientific police who've dealt with thousands of crimes or a couple of politician judges who have never handled a murder case before?

Vixen,
Above (quoted) we have a poster talking about satanism, black cats bleeding, knives pointing to the murder room with wax marks, the occult, manga, vampire slayings, Halloween, old pagan holidays, crucifixes, etc.

The same poster had previously said Mignini's initial hypotheses regarding the crime were probably right.

Can you elaborate on your comment "Nobody has made any such claim about satanism"? Maybe you missed the posts by the above posters (she apparently has the same name as you. Odd coincidence.)

 

[acbytesla]

Vixen,
Speaking of strawmen.

It is of course possible for the kids to have committed the crime in question.

But that is not what I said (hence the strawman. You sure are good at projection!). What I said was:

It is NOT possible for a scenario to have occurred where the kids committed the crime that is consistent with the known evidence. This is because there was zero evidence in the murder room (probability of that happening and them being involved (while evidence of Guede remains) is ~0%). Combine that with the nonexistent prior probability of them teaming up with a burglar they don't know for a pagan gang bang murder and your scenario is laughable. Extraordinary claims of Halloween Satan murders require extraordinary evidence, Vixen. Zero evidence means it didn't happen. Good thing they have tons of evidence again the actual burglar/murderer so all the rational people can actually know what happened.

I have often wondered, how would this case have proceeded if Rudy had not left his bloody palm print? Would Amanda and Raffaele been exonerated? Would Rudy have ever been identified as Meredith's killer? Would Patrick spent more time, in jail? Even held over for trial? Would the Perugian authorities still have nabbed Rudy? And if they didn't, would the police be saying that all those bloody foot prints belonged to Raffaele?

The Defense team would not have the juxtaposition of all the evidence Rudy left behind and the absence of evidence that Amanda and Raffaele left behind. Or be able to point to the law office and the break in at the nursery.

Would the prosecution ignore the unknown male's DNA in her vagina and her purse?

Seriously, would they have been exonerated? I tend to think "no".

 

[Bill Williams]

No I've found you clear and helpful for years. I can't the Italian and have no desire to muddle through Google translates.

I don't believe Mignini ever went on record saying Satanic Rite or anything like that but did allude to the date and Halloween. I remember the press talking about a sex game gone bad, which was totally foreign to me.

I do agree with the PGP that this meme was promoted by the FOA/PIP PR using Preston and his MOF story as a battering ram. G-M didn't just set up media interviews.

I don't think it matters one way or the other in the end.

M&B said it just about perfectly. There wasn't enough evidence to convict.

A less biased person might say that the press which reported it - including no friend to the FOA Barbie Nadeau - would see Preston and his MOF story as corroboration!

But no matter, it is as you say. M/B closed this and the Satanic stuff remains moot.

Still, Mignini himself did not help the meme by agreeing to come out of the audience to address the conference on Satanism and the law, where he spoke of how that had been part of the Knox case.

 

[acbytesla]

What is this self-evident "evidence" you refer to? Please cite what exactly is "nice" about Raff and Amanda in respect of how they treated the police, the victim, their family and friends and their wider community. What have they ever done which is not self-serving and with a smirk.

You totally ignore what is happening around you, don't you? You keep painting them with your ugly brush. What have they done that was self serving with a smirk? How did they so horribly treat any of those people? The police that wrongfully imprisoned them? What did the do wrong to the victim or her family?

 

[Grinder]

A less biased person might say that the press which reported it - including no friend to the FOA Barbie Nadeau - would see Preston and his MOF story as corroboration!

But no matter, it is as you say. M/B closed this and the Satanic stuff remains moot.

Still, Mignini himself did not help the meme by agreeing to come out of the audience to address the conference on Satanism and the law, where he spoke of how that had been part of the Knox case.

Mignini attended a conference on satanic issues the judiciary must deal with in Italy. The date of that conference was years after Nov. of 2007. One question or contention oft repeated by PIPs is that Mignini contended it was a satanic rite or some such thing. I have never found a contemporaneous report from the early days and have nor found anything backing those claims. Sex game, sex orgy or a date gone bad I have found.

I believe you have stated in was September 2013.

As far as I'm concerned all religions are a little bit of smoke and mirrors with angels and devils. Catholics even more so with incense and chanting. Satanism for me isn't a big step from that.

If you have a quote from Mignini before or during the first trial, cite it.

 

[Bill Williams]

Mignini attended a conference on satanic issues the judiciary must deal with in Italy. The date of that conference was years after Nov. of 2007. One question or contention oft repeated by PIPs is that Mignini contended it was a satanic rite or some such thing. I have never found a contemporaneous report from the early days and have nor found anything backing those claims. Sex game, sex orgy or a date gone bad I have found.

I believe you have stated in was September 2013.

As far as I'm concerned all religions are a little bit of smoke and mirrors with angels and devils. Catholics even more so with incense and chanting. Satanism for me isn't a big step from that.

If you have a quote from Mignini before or during the first trial, cite it.

Most of this is a non sequitur. This is not about any one person's views on religion.

There are thousands of prosecutors out there who have religious views, none of whom make those views part of cases they are prosecuting.

What remains is this. You claim it was some phoney FOA meme, yet none other than Barbie Nadeau shared it and propagated it. But you dismiss her. Doug Preston says this is what he found in his MOF case. Instead of seeing independent corroboration, again you dismiss it. Mignini himself attends conferences on Satanism and the law, and this is hand waved away.

There's an agenda here!

 

[Vixen]

You totally ignore what is happening around you, don't you? You keep painting them with your ugly brush. What have they done that was self serving with a smirk? How did they so horribly treat any of those people? The police that wrongfully imprisoned them? What did the do wrong to the victim or her family?

I asked first. You give me your list and I'll give you mine.

 

[Grinder]

Most of this is a non sequitur. This is not about any one person's views on religion.

There are thousands of prosecutors out there who have religious views, none of whom make those views part of cases they are prosecuting.

What remains is this. You claim it was some phoney FOA meme, yet none other than Barbie Nadeau shared it and propagated it. But you dismiss her. Doug Preston says this is what he found in his MOF case. Instead of seeing independent corroboration, again you dismiss it. Mignini himself attends conferences on Satanism and the law, and this is hand waved away.

There's an agenda here!

There was no non sequitur by me - you always.

The discussion was whether or not Mignini characterized the crime as a satanic rite and early on. You've pushed this in the past and usually end it with non sequitur or some other dismissive gesture.

No one doubts that Preston went after Mignini over the MOF story/case, but that doesn't mean Mignini believed the same about the Kercher murder.

I and others here have stated we can't find evidence of him using satanic or rite early on. I can't find it and you can't either.

If the idiot Barbie used the meme, who cares? Preston hated Mignini for good reason, it would seem. The MOF case was completely different and it doesn't seem a stretch at all to consider something like satanism in that case.

For the life of me I don't get why you bringing positions from people you disdain as points of fact. Massei, Vogt, Barbie, Nencini and Follain come to mind. Just because they are in the PG camp but say something that supports some point of yours doesn't give it credibility.

 

[Vixen]

Massei also moved the time Curatolo from just before midnight to 23 to 23:30 because of buses leaving by then but didn't know they didn't run that Thursday (glad you finally got the day correct) so based his judgment in part on a fallacy. Massei is and was a fool. Nothing but a lifetime bureaucrat judge.

There are one or two criticisms I could make, but overall, no judge is going to please everybody 100%. Massei handled it with tact and wisdom. He may have been timid, but on balance, a wise old goat.

 

[Desert Fox]

There was no non sequitur by me - you always.

The discussion was whether or not Mignini characterized the crime as a satanic rite and early on. You've pushed this in the past and usually end it with non sequitur or some other dismissive gesture.

No one doubts that Preston went after Mignini over the MOF story/case, but that doesn't mean Mignini believed the same about the Kercher murder.

I and others here have stated we can't find evidence of him using satanic or rite early on. I can't find it and you can't either.

If the idiot Barbie used the meme, who cares? Preston hated Mignini for good reason, it would seem. The MOF case was completely different and it doesn't seem a stretch at all to consider something like satanism in that case.

For the life of me I don't get why you bringing positions from people you disdain as points of fact. Massei, Vogt, Barbie, Nencini and Follain come to mind. Just because they are in the PG camp but say something that supports some point of yours doesn't give it credibility.

There is a history which one can clearly see where people claim crimes are satanic driven and it is virtually statistically certain that they are wrong.

I think the only case was Richard Ramirez

 

[acbytesla]

I asked first. You give me your list and I'll give you mine.

I don't want yours.

 

[Vixen]

Vixen,
Above (quoted) we have a poster talking about satanism, black cats bleeding, knives pointing to the murder room with wax marks, the occult, manga, vampire slayings, Halloween, old pagan holidays, crucifixes, etc.

The same poster had previously said Mignini's initial hypotheses regarding the crime were probably right.

Can you elaborate on your comment "Nobody has made any such claim about satanism"? Maybe you missed the posts by the above posters (she apparently has the same name as you. Odd coincidence.)

Mignini's original submission to the court as a prosecutor was that it was a crime of futile motive. He did cite Raff's penchant for violent manga and specifically named 'Blood, Last Vampire Slayer' for a murder scene in the comic is similar to the way Mez was posed, including blood spattered walls. He mentioned Marilyn Manson. From memory, IIRC he believed Rudy, Raff and Amanda had to tried to coerce Mez into having sex.

These are objective facts, as the police saw it, and as prosecutor, he was obliged to write a report reconstructing the crime, including motive.

So, no hypothesis about satanism, more a comment on the psychopathic nature of the alleged killers.

In MOF the explicit theory was that it was a esoteric masonic plot to to commit abominations for their organised black mass, based on allegiance to ancient Egyptian gods AIUI.

Not a correlation to the Kercher murder, although initially, they had to worry there may have been a serial killer on the loose, given the date. Even Bruno-Marasca wrote the murder was more the mark of a serial killer than an interrupted burglar. IIRC as well as three stab marks around the neck and chin, there were lots of other knife slashes around Mez' person, indicating a calculated act of torture.

I don't really get why you think Mignini should not consider an evil motive for the crime.