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Split Thread the TM and anti-semitism

Bubba said:
Questions re his origins arose long before he produced the birth cert and suspicion grew when he didnt do so sooner.
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Questions arose principally from racist douchebags.

Suppose some LEO put Mossad/Israel govt on a list of "Who would benefit from 911?" ....How anti-semitic is that?
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Very.
 
Dave Rogers said:
It would depend on whether they actually benefited, which is debatable at best given that the US was already a staunch ally of Israel. Just handwaving imaginary benefits, as so many CTs seem to do, is very suspect; how, specifically, is Israel supposed to have benefited from 9/11? And don't just say "It's obvious"; if you can't come up with specific examples, then no, it isn't, and it starts to look like a justification for prejudice.

Dave
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The highlited question occurred to me as well. Perceived flaws in any side of an issue are worth pointing out, no matter whether or not it is hypothetical brainstorming.

Hence, IMO measuring chance of Israel/Mossad involvement on a cui bono scale may not be as simple as 'US was already a staunch ally of Israel', even though that is true.

Example:
Maybe someone somewhere thought US wasnt staunch enough. I'm not claiming that, BTW. I just think its possible in world affairs these days. To be thorough, I'd put it on a checklist of things needing to be considered. Then, dig in and weight its merit before exonerating or implicating anyone.
 
Oystein said:
The difference is: CIA/US involvements in the coups in Chile (1970s) and Iran (1950s) have lots of evidence going for them and are essentially acknowledged by the CIA and the USA (although neither were "false flags" - I don't think you understand properly what that term means).
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Maybe you are wrong there. Remember the martians-venutians-earthlings metaphor?

Or if you like, shoot up or blow up part of Saigon to frame a party you wish to vilify, (which is part of what I referred to this time) as another example of my understanding of FFA.

Another noteworthy FFA example may be seen in claiming mossad's predecessors bombed a hotel dressed as arabs in a false flag attack. If they were...(were they?) mossad's predecessors, it may behoove one to bear that in mind when weighing claims regarding what any agency, including mossad, may be capable of.

There is, however, no evidence for Mossad/Israel involvement in the 9/11 attack, except for some labored, prejudiced "cui bono" assessment. I am not exactly sure Israel actually profited from the destabilization of countries in her neighborhood.

Face it: Some truthers accuse Israel and Mossad because they are despicable anti-semites. There is nothing more to it.
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Yah. Knew that a long time ago. Maybe you're missing something.
 
Oystein said:
The difference is: CIA/US involvements in the coups in Chile (1970s) and Iran (1950s) have lots of evidence going for them and are essentially acknowledged by the CIA and the USA (although neither were "false flags" - I don't think you understand properly what that term means).

There is, however, no evidence for Mossad/Israel involvement in the 9/11 attack, except for some labored, prejudiced "cui bono" assessment. I am not exactly sure Israel actually profited from the destabilization of countries in her neighborhood.

Face it: Some truthers accuse Israel and Mossad because they are despicable anti-semites. There is nothing more to it.
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A conspiracist belief can be described as “the unnecessary assumption of conspiracy when other explanations are more probable” (Aaronovitch, 2009, p. 5).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3659314/

This applies also to the 9/11 conspiracy in general.

" A wise man therefore, proportions his belief to the evidence". -David Hume
This is the most useful epitemology for judging singular events that cannot be retested, unlike in the sciences.

The proportion of the evidence points to the CIA involvement in those coups and other covert actions. Like Watergate, these exposed conspiracies from the past are evidence that they can't be concealed without the likely chance they will be discovered. In today's information explosion, the chances are even less that an important conspiracy that affects large numbers of people can be successfully hidden.
 
Bubba said:
The highlited question occurred to me as well. Perceived flaws in any side of an issue are worth pointing out, no matter whether or not it is hypothetical brainstorming.

Hence, IMO measuring chance of Israel/Mossad involvement on a cui bono scale may not be as simple as 'US was already a staunch ally of Israel', even though that is true.
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So let's start from there, shall we? There is no actual hypothesis of how Israel might have gained or lost from 9/11. So what is the actual basis of this hypothetical cui bono? There is none. There's just another level of speculation. Can you see where this is going? Let me lead you through it.

The conspiracy theorist suggests Israel might have been involved in 9/11. Why, we ask? Because Israel benefited from it, says the conspiracy theorist. How did Israel benefit from it, we ask? Well, we don't know, but they might have, says the conspiracy theorist. Why do you think they might have, we ask? Well, you can't say they didn't, says the conspiracy theorist. But that's not the same as saying they did, we point out. And the conspiracy theorist tries not to say what he's thinking, which is: Of course we should suspect them, because they're Jews, and being a Jew is itself a suspicious circumstance. And that is anti-Semitism; the belief that because they're Jews, they can't be trusted.

Dave
 
Dave Rogers said:
It would depend on whether they actually benefited, which is debatable at best given that the US was already a staunch ally of Israel. Just handwaving imaginary benefits, as so many CTs seem to do, is very suspect; how, specifically, is Israel supposed to have benefited from 9/11? And don't just say "It's obvious"; if you can't come up with specific examples, then no, it isn't, and it starts to look like a justification for prejudice.
Dave
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Or....equal opportunity suspicion of any party that could possibly benefit in ways that could be stealthy or obvious.

Bogus allegations of racism and antisemitism have flown around other issues. That can tend to muzzle peole. Like with excessive political correctness intimidating people, my radar lights up when I see any such allegation. Thats my reason for questioning here.

Plus because we have ample amounts of corruption and abuse of power, I wouldnt be surprised if there are actual conspiracies no one has even noticed.
 
Bubba said:
Or....equal opportunity suspicion of any party that could possibly benefit in ways that could be stealthy or obvious.

Bogus allegations of racism and antisemitism have flown around other issues. That can tend to muzzle peole. Like with excessive political correctness intimidating people, my radar lights up when I see any such allegation. Thats my reason for questioning here.
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If only truthers suspected "any party that could possibly benefit" with "equal opportunity". But we never see them suspect Russia, China, India, Iran, Germany, Turkey, Kuwait or Canada. Strange that.


Bubba said:
Plus because we have ample amounts of corruption and abuse of power, I wouldnt be surprised if there are actual conspiracies no one has even noticed.
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Nice change of topic.
 
Bubba said:
Under what list title of "persons of interest" would including mossad/israel be deemed acceptable please?
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I'm not talking about anything to do with subjective terms of "acceptability". You're free to find suspicion of Jews, Israel, Obama, blacks, women, gays, Kurds or anyone else as "acceptable" as you please. I'm taking about pretext and agenda, and their associated probabilities.

Now, my collective experiences indicate that a suspicion of Mossad for the 9/11 attacks being unrelated to a bigoted pretext is just about as probable as a suspicion of radical feminist groups for the recent sexual attacks in Germany being unrelated to a bigoted pretext. And that probability is, to my eyes, very low.

That's all I'm saying. You're perfectly entitled to see things differently.
 
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Bubba said:
Bogus allegations of racism and antisemitism have flown around other issues. That can tend to muzzle peole. Like with excessive political correctness intimidating people, my radar lights up when I see any such allegation. Thats my reason for questioning here.
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What exactly qualifies you to determine which allegations of bigotry are authentic and which are bogus?
 
carlitos said:
On the other hand, calling a guy born in Prague and a guy born in New Jersey "Israeli" pretty clearly does out you as an antisemite.
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Perhaps 'Israeli' isn't the right word.
I suppose I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that their actions were State sponsored.

Chertoff is a duel citizen. Bazant I'm not certain. His name means 'military recruit'... perhaps he is deep cover. You may want to produce people that grew up with him in Prague. Do we know he grew up there? A birth certificate doesn't prove he did. What we do know is that he's worked diligently and almost with autonomy to create a ridiculously make believe collapse sequence which betrays his profession, his degree, his honor, his country, and the lives of nearly 3000 ppl. Why would he do that if to not support State action?

The same can be said for Chertoff who clearly betrayed his role as prosecutor in the criminal division.


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trustbutverify said:
Now, my collective experiences indicate that a suspicion of Mossad for the 9/11 attacks being unrelated to a bigoted pretext is just about as probable as a suspicion of radical feminist groups for the recent sexual attacks in Germany being unrelated to a bigoted pretext. And that probability is, to my eyes, very low.

That's all I'm saying. You're perfectly entitled to see things differently.
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I didn't even consider Israeli involvement until many years after I understood that a drone was flown into WTC2, all three towers were bombed, and there was an effective coup in DC (via assault on the Pentagon and Congress).

I'm not certain of to what degree Mossad was complicit but the "dancing Israeli's" and "art students" with demolition training sure got my attention. If anything, they with certainty were only players in a bigger game.


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Notconvinced said:
Perhaps 'Israeli' isn't the right word.
I suppose I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that their actions were State sponsored.

Chertoff is a duel citizen.
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Michael Chertoff fights duels? Damn, that's an explosive revelation.

Do you have any credible evidence Chertoff holds official Israeli citizenship? I've never seen any.
 
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Notconvinced said:
I didn't even consider Israeli involvement until many years after I understood that a drone was flown into WTC2, all three towers were bombed, and there was an effective coup in DC (via assault on the Pentagon and Congress).

I'm not certain of to what degree Mossad was complicit but the "dancing Israeli's" and "art students" with demolition training sure got my attention. If anything, they with certainty were only players in a bigger game.
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Are you trying to undermine my conclusion, or support it?
 
Notconvinced said:
Perhaps 'Israeli' isn't the right word.
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Of course it isn't - the word you wanted to use is "Jews". Because you are an anti-semite, believing, quite obviously, that being a Jew makes people suspicious.

Notconvinced said:
I suppose I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that their actions were State sponsored.
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Which state, pray tell? Israel? Why - what reasons would you have, other than rabid and blatant anti-semitism?

Notconvinced said:
Chertoff is a duel citizen.
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I asked you for evidence - twice. I am asking a third time: Show your evidence! You have none - you are an anti-semite, evidently.

Notconvinced said:
Bazant I'm not certain.
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Haha. Of course you are not certain - because he isn't! I am sure he even isn't a Jew. Look, I found the catholic baptism certificate of his grandfather (als Zdenek - line 4): http://actapublica.eu/matriky/brno/prohlizec/5986/?strana=132

[ETA] Of the ca. 90,000 Jews of Prague before the beginning of German aggression, an estimated 90% were murdered in the Shoah. Of the rest, most escaped by emigration. Of the rest, about half emigrated to Israel shortly after WW2 and the establishment of communist rule. VERY few Jews remained in Prague. Zdenek Bazant the younger was born in Prague in 1937 and lived there until the 1960s - if he were a Jew, that would be an extraordinary circumstance you'd certainlly find mentioned in his vita somewhere. [/ETA]

Notconvinced said:
His name means 'military recruit'...
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You are a truther. How can I tell? Because you got all your "facts" wrong.
No. The name means "pheasant" (a bird).

Notconvinced said:
perhaps he is deep cover.
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You can fantasize to your hearts content; doesn't make any of it real.

Notconvinced said:
You may want to produce people that grew up with him in Prague.
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No - YOU want to provide evidence for the anti-semitic drivel you are dropping here.

Notconvinced said:
Do we know he grew up there? A birth certificate doesn't prove he did.
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You are a truther. How can I tell? Because you reject evidence even before you see it, if it refutes your fantasies.

Notconvinced said:
What we do know is that he's worked diligently and almost with autonomy to create a ridiculously make believe collapse sequence which betrays his profession, his degree, his honor, his country, and the lives of nearly 3000 ppl. Why would he do that if to not support State action?
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Libel.
 
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Oystein said:
Of course it isn't - the word you wanted to use is "Jews". Because you are an anti-semite, believing, quite obviously, that being a Jew makes people suspicious.


Which state, pray tell? Israel? Why - what reasons would you have, other than rabid and blatant anti-semitism?


I asked you for evidence - twice. I am asking a third time: Show your evidence! You have none - you are an anti-semite, evidently.


Haha. Of course you are not certain - because he isn't! I am sure he even isn't a Jew. Look, I found the catholic baptism certificate of his grandfather (als Zdenek - line 4): http://actapublica.eu/matriky/brno/prohlizec/5986/?strana=132

[ETA] Of the ca. 90,000 Jews of Prague before the beginning of German aggression, an estimated 90% were murdered in the Shoah. Of the rest, most escaped by emigration. Of the rest, about half emigrated to Israel shortly after WW2 and the establishment of communist rule. VERY few Jews remained in Prague. Zdenek Bazant the younger was born in Prague in 1937 and lived there until the 1960s - if he were a Jew, that would be an extraordinary circumstance you'd certainlly find mentioned in his vita somewhere. [/ETA]


You are a truther. How can I tell? Because you got all your "facts" wrong.
No. The name means "pheasant" (a bird).


You can fantasize to your hearts content; doesn't make any of it real.


No - YOU want to provide evidence for the anti-semitic drivel you are dropping here.


You are a truther. How can I tell? Because you reject evidence even before you see it, if it refutes your fantasies.


Libel.
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Your accusation that I'm an antisemite is pure inaccurate paranoia. I've seen the ghettos in Prague, have you? As you undoubtedly know, a Catholic male in the lineage in no way negates ones Judaism. Whether or not he's a Jew is fundamentally irrelevant. What matters is that Bazant has betrayed the ethics of his profession, the natural laws of Newton, and in my estimation... America. That's a fact, not libel. His 'work' was instantaneously used to sell the 911 story. Can you even fathom how much blood is on his hands???

In the "discussions and closure" article, I located the spot in his calculus where he sets aside natural laws to justify his absurd and treasonous "crush down crush up" hypothesis. We can bring that up in another thread if you like.

Bazant also means military recruit, as you ALSO know.

Birth certificates are commonly forged by intelligence agencies of all counties, as you ALSO know.


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