Ah, now I remember. And your closing sentence is accurate:
Oystein said:
Never mind. It is good to see you posting around here again!
Split Thread the TM and anti-semitism
- Thread starter JSanderO
- Start date
Ah, now I remember. And your closing sentence is accurate:
Never mind. It is good to see you posting around here again!
baldartist
Scholar
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Jews can't melt steel beams.
Certainly plausible.
Isnt it also possible that some proponents of these 911 and holocaust theories are not anti-semitic...but instead (as I understand it) are suspicious of fraud, ie criminal scams designed to benefit a party which happens to be a group or element of people in power who happen to be Jewish?
Suspicion of sophisticated criminal fraud is not the same as swastikas painted on synagogues and similar expressions of anti-semitism.
How do you know their suspicions are anti-semitic rather than anti-criminal?
How do you make the step from suspicion of fraud to anti-semitism?
Why isnt suspicion of criminal mafia activity by italians considered anti-italianism?
I'm not asserting they (truthers) are not anti-semitic. Maybe some are. I'm just saying I can still see a difference between suspecting powerful people of fraud versus knee jerk anti-semitism.
I've seen where some rabbis and other Jews protest zionism in their govt. Does that shed a different light on this?
Whether it were true/nutty or not, for sake of the argument, I can see how accusing Mossad of fraud that is designed to frame their enemies and or protect/benefit Jews/Israel is not necessarily anti-semitic.
Could it be that a non anti-semitic person said it first (theorized Mossad involvement) and then anti-semitic people jumped on board and repeated it?
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Nick Terry
Illuminator
No, Bubba. You are ignoring well over a century's worth of outright lying about anything connected with Jews, propagated by modern antisemites.
This lying has come to fixate on the actions of the state of Israel and of its agencies such as Mossad to an almost comic degree. In the Middle East, the paranoia has been so intense that Iran captured "Zionist pigeons" a few years back, while a kestrel was held captive for a while in Turkey on suspicion of being an 'Israeli spy', and indeed there's an entire Wiki page chronicling zoologically themed Israel-related conspiracy theories circulating around the region.
Intelligence services are low-hanging fruit for conspiracy theorists. There are literally thousands of false accusations against this or that intelligence service, ANY accusation against the CIA, FSB, MI6 or Mossad that is not properly documented by mainstream sources is suspect, until proper evidence is provided.
This is what happens when loons cry wolf.
Several previous generations of loons have removed any benefit of the doubt, to the point that when Mossad-flavoured conspiracy theories emerged after 9/11, they were not taken seriously in the mainstream, because there were too many antisemites who had every incentive to smear and malign Jews and Israel to make it at all probable that any specific allegation did not come from an antisemitic source or mindset.
Notconvinced
Critical Thinker
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Ahhh, the thread where [SNIP] accused me of being antisemite for having a Jewish sister. Roflcopter
Sent from our shared looking glass platform
Sent from our shared looking glass platform
Edited by kmortis:
Edited to remove Rulw 12 & Rule 0 violation
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Blaming Jews for manipulating world events like 911 is not new; 911 truth claims blaming Jews is anti-Semitism. 911 truth followers share the most idiotic claims with their fellow 911 truth failed followers who are also anti-Semitic.
Faith-based 911 truth followers know they are right, and smarter than everyone who knows 911 truth is BS, and they learned all they know from the Internet... A movement based on BS googled on the Internet, the 911 truth movement of dumbed down lies for those who have no clue where their overwhelming evidence is, or what it is.
Faith-based 911 truth followers know they are right, and smarter than everyone who knows 911 truth is BS, and they learned all they know from the Internet... A movement based on BS googled on the Internet, the 911 truth movement of dumbed down lies for those who have no clue where their overwhelming evidence is, or what it is.
Brainster
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What happens is that pre-existing conspiracy theories are often simply expanded to include new events. Thus, for those who argue that the Jews control the world, it is not much of a stretch to claim that the Jews pulled the 9-11 strings, just as Alex Jones blamed it on the Bilderberg Group, and liberal conspiracy theorists implicated the Bush Administration.
Notconvinced
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You don't have an argument. Acknowledging that Israelis helped to conceal the 911 crimes, Bazant and Chertoff for example, does not make one an antisemite. Acknowledging that agents of Mossad were filming the first plane strike and celebrating does not make one an antisemite. Understanding that Israel tried to kill every single sailor aboard the USS Liberty does not make one an antisemite. These are simply factual relationships that you are uncomfortable accepting. You're just grasping at a ridiculous framework in which you might try to marginalize 'truthers' by associating them with racism, when in fact what you're terrified of is American Nationalism.
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Kid Eager
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trustbutverify
Penultimate Amazing
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I never claimed it wasn't possible. I simply said that the probability someone without an antisemitic agenda would claim Mossad was behind the 9/11 attacks is roughly equivalent to the probability someone without an antisemitic agenda would claim the Holocaust was a Jewish hoax. That's all. In fact, let me express it in an updated form:
P(claim Mossad behind 9/11 with no antisemitic agenda) approx= P(claim Holocaust was a Jewish hoax with no antisemitic agenda) approx= P(claim Pres. Obama faked his Birth Certificate for presidential eligibility with no racist agenda).
I'd say that's just about right.
Jango
Graduate Poster
Gallop gallop gallop gallop........
Can't address or counter what he is saying, would you have to type too much and find links? Awe.
Kid Eager
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Can't address or counter what he is saying, would you have to type too much and find links? Awe.
Can address, can counter, but why bother? It's already on record in this forum and nothing I say is going to change what Notconvinced purports to believe.
Was I incorrect in alluding to it being a Gish Gallop?
BTW - thank you for the italicised awe. You have no idea how much it means to me, to receive that from an anonymous poster on a web forum.
Jango
Graduate Poster
Perhaps for those that are interested? Ever think about that? Maybe it is information and perspectives that may fill in someone's data set about the topic(s). There are worthwhile intellectual principles spoken about here at great lengths, but if what you describe his post as is true, countering the wrongness with what you say can address and counter his post is certainly preferred than saying what you did and simply moving on. You say 'he is full of ******** so why bother responding to him?' by responding to him without showing why he is full of ********. Notwithstanding, you're perfectly within your right to do so; however, I'm just saying it would be refreshing to see informative counters rather than what has turned into a comedy routine.
Oystein
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Au contraire.
Absent any evidence that Bazant and Chartoff are in fact citizens of the country Israel, and absent any evidence they did what you allege, this appears rather obviously a sneaky way of avoiding what you really want to say: "They did eevil things cuz they're Joooos!"
I asked you previously to show evidence that Bazant, who is from Czechoslovakia and emigrates to the US after short times in France and Canada, is an "Israeli"!
I asked you previously to show evidence that Chertoff, born in the USA and having never lived a day in Israel, is an Israeli!
Your fraudulent "acknowledgement" that they are "Israelis" appears as a very obvious indication that you are, in fact, anti-semitic.
Anti-semitism + Nationalism = Nazism
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through
On the other hand, calling a guy born in Prague and a guy born in New Jersey "Israeli" pretty clearly does out you as an antisemite.
Questions re his origins arose long before he produced the birth cert and suspicion grew when he didnt do so sooner.
Would you accuse Chileans or Iranians or various other 3rd world LEO of anti-americanism or racism for putting CIA/America on a list of who'd benefit by orchestrating false flag stunts in overthrowing their democratically elected govts back then?
Suppose some LEO put Mossad/Israel govt on a list of "Who would benefit from 911?" ....How anti-semitic is that?
Nick Terry
Illuminator
Obama released his short form birth certificate in June 2008, before he was even elected. The policy of the state of Hawaii was to provide computer-generated certificates, which of course fuelled the fire. The original long form was released in April 2011. By then there was every incentive for the Obama White House to let various Republicans discredit themselves by endorsing what had become a mass delusion on the right wing of the political spectrum.
Your question seems to confuse historical facts with hypothetical possibilities. It is well known that the CIA aided coups in Iran and Chile during the 1950s and 1970s respectively. The CIA was rather notorious for engaging in often amateurish direct action in this era, e.g. the Bay of Pigs.
Since the mid-1970s, however, increased congressional and senate oversight along with a shift towards electronics intelligence and away from human intelligence make it less probable that any new accusation of CIA malfeasance is actually true. This does not rule out the possibility but it makes it less likely.
Moreover, from the mid-1970s direct actions have been more frequently carried out by US special forces, e.g. the failed attempt to free the Teheran hostages in 1980, or the apprehension of Osama Bin Laden, in both cases certainly with CIA support, but not the work of "the CIA".
Seeing the hand of the CIA in everything that might possibly be construed as bad would indeed be a sign of anti-Americanism, but there's a big difference between a rational suspicion of foreign interference in a conflict, and a kneejerk accusation, such as Hugo Chavez claiming that multiple Latin American leaders were victims of a US "cancer plot". Chavez was previously nearly ousted in a coup in 2002, and despite earlier denials then changed his tune to say later on that the US was involved, even though the evidence indicates the opposite.
Iran made anti-American noises for decades after the overthrow of the Shah in 1979, and backed up the rhetoric with actions, e.g. the hostages crisis in the first years of Khomeini's rule. In recent decades Iranian leaders have tended not to provoke the US directly but have made their feelings rather plain about Israel, especially under Ahmadinejad.
Thus when bad things happen to Iranian nuclear scienists it is perfectly rational to assume that Israel (and thus Mossad) may indeed have been responsible, since there is a very overt conflict there. Israel struggled unsuccessfully against the US-brokered deal over nuclear power with Iran. There was a lot of sabre-rattling from Israel and its supporters elsewhere, and since they had previously attacked an Iraqi nuclear plant to derail a potential nuclear weapons program, everyone including the US took them seriously.
However, for years there were conspiracists claiming that the US was imminently about to attack Iraq, echoed at various times by mainstream media comments from kneejerk anti-American writers. Yet the Obama administration was actually working quietly behind the scenes to broker a deal with Iran. Today, the two countries are cooperating to a certain extent against ISIS, in an enemy-of-my-enemy scenario.
Law enforcement, i.e. the FBI, traced the identities of the 9/11 hijackers within 72 hours, revealing that most were from Saudi Arabia with a few Egyptians, Lebanese and UAE citizens mixed in.
Since the WTC had previously been attacked by Al-Qaeda, it seems very unlikely that any law enforcement officer would have had cause to brainstorm possible culprits by resorting to 'cui bono'.
Had one done so and fingered Mossad then the chance would be indeed quite good that the LEO was an antisemite, for the simple reason that even moderately geopolitically informed investigators (i.e. anyone who reads the foreign news sections of quality newspapers) would know that Israel was and is a US ally, with no known reason then or now to orchestrate a massive terrorist strike on its chief sponsor.
For the same reason, if the LEO had fingered the United Kingdom in this unnecessary hypothetical brainstorming exercise on September 11-13, then the probability would be overwhelming that the investigator was a deranged Anglophobe.
Dave Rogers
Bandaged ice that stampedes inexpensively through
It would depend on whether they actually benefited, which is debatable at best given that the US was already a staunch ally of Israel. Just handwaving imaginary benefits, as so many CTs seem to do, is very suspect; how, specifically, is Israel supposed to have benefited from 9/11? And don't just say "It's obvious"; if you can't come up with specific examples, then no, it isn't, and it starts to look like a justification for prejudice.
Dave
Oystein
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The difference is: CIA/US involvements in the coups in Chile (1970s) and Iran (1950s) have lots of evidence going for them and are essentially acknowledged by the CIA and the USA (although neither were "false flags" - I don't think you understand properly what that term means).
There is, however, no evidence for Mossad/Israel involvement in the 9/11 attack, except for some labored, prejudiced "cui bono" assessment. I am not exactly sure Israel actually profited from the destabilization of countries in her neighborhood.
Face it: Some truthers accuse Israel and Mossad because they are despicable anti-semites. There is nothing more to it.