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Split Thread Foreknowledge of events on 9/11

Jango said:
As I said from the beginning of the post: "Spying is but a part of the broader context I've said: operating domestically."

The C.I.A. does operate domestically.

When they're recruiting people, how do you think that goes? They walk up to someone cold and say, "Excuse me, sir/ma'am, we're from the C.I.A. and we'd like you to work for us." Or do you think they watch their intended target for a bit before approaching?
Click to expand...

Recruiting is not "Operating", recruiting is recruiting, just like Apple, Ford, Bank of America does every day.

The CIA recruits just like every other government agency does: online and at job-fairs. You fill out an application, pass a background check, a polygraph test, and then (depending on you're specialty) you go to work.

Now if you're talking about recruiting assets for intelligence gathering that's different. More importantly that all happens overseas...because that's where the foreigners are. They rarely approach subjects due to risk, so they wait to be approached by people offering valuable information. It's not an exact science, and since 2002 they have run into a lot of trouble finding reliable informants in middle eastern countries, the best example being Iraq where they were fed bad information by Saddam's secret police in hopes of confusing the US. Before 2001 there was only 1 CIA operative covering Iraq and he did it from Jordan because Langley and the White House was unwilling to risk being compromised if he got caught.

Hardly the masters of evil black-ops.

Within the US it is the FBI that does the spying, and they have better results because they often have the leverage of prison and crippling fines to get informants to cooperate.

This is just what our domestic Federal agencies have done in California in the past few months:

http://www.justice.gov/usao-cdca/pr

The CIA couldn't compete with the FBI, DEA, BATF, Customs, and the Marshall Service even if they wanted to, and why would they want to.

And this is the big flaw that you and every other CTer ignores when it comes to the CIA. They have their hands full with keeping an eye on the rest of the world, and that is their job. Since they work at the behest of the President and Congress they are often at the mercy of increasingly stupid and corrupt people. The Clinton White House, for example, had changed the direction of the CIA and NSA's focus to industrial espionage, this helped Boeing win a big contract over Airbus and Airbus screamed bloody murder to anyone who would listen that somebody was reading their internal communications...they were right, we were.
At the same time all of this was going on the former KGB Librarian, Vasili Mitrokhin , walked into the US Embassy in Riga hoping to defect and offered hundreds of important documents in exchange.

The CIA told him to go away. So he defected to the British instead.

http://cryptome.org/kgb-lib.htm

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/07/kgb-defector-cold-war-vasil-mitrokhin-notes-public

See, this actually happened. The "Spy World" isn't what you see in movies or read about on the internet. It's mostly hit and miss, and from there it's mostly miss. This why it is impossible for the CIA to be the monster CTers make it out to be, and believe me when I say that they wish they had the capabilities the nut-jobs think that they do.

The CIA has so many blind-spots that it's not funny. Many are politically initiated blind-spots, and others are created by limited access, and limited resources. Before you can speak about the CIA with any authority you have to accept them as what they ultimately are: a United States Government entity, just like the Post Office, just like Social Security, just like Fish & Game. They have good people working there committed to keeping the US out of trouble, and like any government agency they also employ A-holes. The 10% Rule applies.
 
Axxman300 said:
Recruiting is not "Operating", recruiting is recruiting, just like Apple, Ford, Bank of America does every day.

The CIA recruits just like every other government agency does: online and at job-fairs. You fill out an application, pass a background check, a polygraph test, and then (depending on you're specialty) you go to work.

Now if you're talking about recruiting assets for intelligence gathering that's different. More importantly that all happens overseas...because that's where the foreigners are. They rarely approach subjects due to risk, so they wait to be approached by people offering valuable information. It's not an exact science, and since 2002 they have run into a lot of trouble finding reliable informants in middle eastern countries, the best example being Iraq where they were fed bad information by Saddam's secret police in hopes of confusing the US. Before 2001 there was only 1 CIA operative covering Iraq and he did it from Jordan because Langley and the White House was unwilling to risk being compromised if he got caught.

Hardly the masters of evil black-ops.

Within the US it is the FBI that does the spying, and they have better results because they often have the leverage of prison and crippling fines to get informants to cooperate.

This is just what our domestic Federal agencies have done in California in the past few months:

http://www.justice.gov/usao-cdca/pr

The CIA couldn't compete with the FBI, DEA, BATF, Customs, and the Marshall Service even if they wanted to, and why would they want to.

And this is the big flaw that you and every other CTer ignores when it comes to the CIA. They have their hands full with keeping an eye on the rest of the world, and that is their job. Since they work at the behest of the President and Congress they are often at the mercy of increasingly stupid and corrupt people. The Clinton White House, for example, had changed the direction of the CIA and NSA's focus to industrial espionage, this helped Boeing win a big contract over Airbus and Airbus screamed bloody murder to anyone who would listen that somebody was reading their internal communications...they were right, we were.
At the same time all of this was going on the former KGB Librarian, Vasili Mitrokhin , walked into the US Embassy in Riga hoping to defect and offered hundreds of important documents in exchange.

The CIA told him to go away. So he defected to the British instead.

http://cryptome.org/kgb-lib.htm

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/07/kgb-defector-cold-war-vasil-mitrokhin-notes-public

See, this actually happened. The "Spy World" isn't what you see in movies or read about on the internet. It's mostly hit and miss, and from there it's mostly miss. This why it is impossible for the CIA to be the monster CTers make it out to be, and believe me when I say that they wish they had the capabilities the nut-jobs think that they do.

The CIA has so many blind-spots that it's not funny. Many are politically initiated blind-spots, and others are created by limited access, and limited resources. Before you can speak about the CIA with any authority you have to accept them as what they ultimately are: a United States Government entity, just like the Post Office, just like Social Security, just like Fish & Game. They have good people working there committed to keeping the US out of trouble, and like any government agency they also employ A-holes. The 10% Rule applies.
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1. Actively searching for people to do something for them is 'operating'.

2. Only overseas, huh? So they never approach any foreigners inside the U.S.? Wait, you don't think there are foreigners in the U.S. Haha. Come on now. Drop the charade already.

3. Any more canards and/or strawman arguments or false generalizations you want to add?
 
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JSanderO said:
Recruiting and operating are two different things. They probably have people working for them in the media... Look at the run up to the Iraq war... On the other hand their were plenty of hawks that didn't need a script handed to them...
Click to expand...

How do you think people are hired by the C.I.A.? What, POTUS walks up to someone and says, "They don't know that you're coming, but just tell 'em I gave you a job." No. The C.I.A. conducts an operation for new hires.
 
Is jango seriously arguing that recruiting and maintaining office space in CONUS satisfies his unsupported assertion that the CIA was "operating" in the U.S.?

Seriously?
 
1. Actively searching for people to do something for them is 'operating'.
Click to expand...

Nope.

2. Only overseas, huh? So they never approach any foreigners inside the U.S.? Wait, you don't think there are foreigners in the U.S. Haha. Come on now. Drop the charade already.
Click to expand...

Oh no, the CIA, DoS, and military intelligence contacts foreign nationals in immigrants all the time. It's not done in secret, low-key, but not in a parking garage at 3:00AM. When trouble breaks out in a country we're not up to speed on they contact immigrants from that country and ask them a list of questions. In the lead-up to the invasion of Afghanistan, the Army's SFOD-D contacted an Afghan national who was in prison, but had current knowledge of the country. They asked him about Al Qaeda and how to find them, and they were told to talk to the local cab drivers because they seem to know everything. That's not something you can get from Rand McNally.

The great thing about the United States is that we get people from everywhere, and many of them have family in the "old country", and most are eager to help the government out when the CIA calls them up. The CIA also has naturalized citizens working in their ranks, but that's not a secret, and they had to go through the same vetting process everyone else did.

Any more canards and/or strawman arguments or false generalizations you want to add?
Click to expand...

Yes, you need to read real books on the subject.

The CIA has a great recommended reading list, and the remarkable thing is that many of the books on this list are less than flattering to the agency, and a few are outright hostile:

https://www.cia.gov/library/intelligence-literature

Then you should read real operational documents:

http://www.foia.cia.gov/

The latest one is about publishing "Dr. Zhivago" in Russian as propoganda operation:

http://www.foia.cia.gov/collection/doctor-zhivago

And since this is the 9-11 CT forum, this is a link to their 9-11 IG documents:

http://www.foia.cia.gov/collection/declassified-documents-related-911-attacks

The thing that separates me from you is that I've read many of these because I love history, and espionage fascinates me.

The one thing you might learn is what an "Operation" is and is not.

A CIA Operation is the covert gathering of intelligence from a specific FOREIGN target by means of HUMIT & SIGINT. That can be everything from a conversation between a covert operative and a targeted subject in a bar, to tapping phones, hacking targeted devices, planting bugs, or idealy - getting someone at the target to turn on their country and funnel intel to their handler.

The CIA also seems to have a Direct Action branch, and if I need to explain these then I don't know what to say. You'd know one if you saw one.
 
Notconvinced said:
You probably actually believe that would've stop them too... Smh
Click to expand...

It clearly did in the case of the 9-11 hijackers. In the 1990s the CIA was crippled by internal risk-aversion. Worse, it was under investigation by the FBI for Alrich Ames, so nobody went near the line. A lot of good people were handed their walking papers because they simply looked like they were conduction questionable business.
 
Axxman300 said:
Nope.



Oh no, the CIA, DoS, and military intelligence contacts foreign nationals in immigrants all the time. It's not done in secret, low-key, but not in a parking garage at 3:00AM. When trouble breaks out in a country we're not up to speed on they contact immigrants from that country and ask them a list of questions. In the lead-up to the invasion of Afghanistan, the Army's SFOD-D contacted an Afghan national who was in prison, but had current knowledge of the country. They asked him about Al Qaeda and how to find them, and they were told to talk to the local cab drivers because they seem to know everything. That's not something you can get from Rand McNally.

The great thing about the United States is that we get people from everywhere, and many of them have family in the "old country", and most are eager to help the government out when the CIA calls them up. The CIA also has naturalized citizens working in their ranks, but that's not a secret, and they had to go through the same vetting process everyone else did.



Yes, you need to read real books on the subject.

The CIA has a great recommended reading list, and the remarkable thing is that many of the books on this list are less than flattering to the agency, and a few are outright hostile:

https://www.cia.gov/library/intelligence-literature

Then you should read real operational documents:

http://www.foia.cia.gov/

The latest one is about publishing "Dr. Zhivago" in Russian as propoganda operation:

http://www.foia.cia.gov/collection/doctor-zhivago

And since this is the 9-11 CT forum, this is a link to their 9-11 IG documents:

http://www.foia.cia.gov/collection/declassified-documents-related-911-attacks

The thing that separates me from you is that I've read many of these because I love history, and espionage fascinates me.

The one thing you might learn is what an "Operation" is and is not.

A CIA Operation is the covert gathering of intelligence from a specific FOREIGN target by means of HUMIT & SIGINT. That can be everything from a conversation between a covert operative and a targeted subject in a bar, to tapping phones, hacking targeted devices, planting bugs, or idealy - getting someone at the target to turn on their country and funnel intel to their handler.

The CIA also seems to have a Direct Action branch, and if I need to explain these then I don't know what to say. You'd know one if you saw one.
Click to expand...

1. They're not the only ones though. They also contact foreign businessmen, embassy personnel and security service personnel, be they on an official visit or are discovered working covertly. After all, counterintelligence and counterterrorism personnel like to develop contacts and sources.

2. When they try to turn someone to our side, to become a spy for us, it is absolutely done in secret. Does not mean that it is always successful, but they're not advertising the fact that they're trying to turn a foreign national into a traitor to their country. You know, like how the Soviet Union made or got Americans to betray America by being a spy for Moscow.

3. They would meet anywhere they felt did not compromise operational security. If that's an alleyway, a basement, a rooftop, a parking garage, it does not matter. It's all dependent on context e.g. what security measures exist in the area.

4. That no new institutional knowledge for a global intelligence network. The C.I.A. also had the Northern Alliance to work with in Afghanistan. They also had a lot of U.S. currency to hand out to win allies, like warlords.

5. I have. I just don't have any illusions about them, they're not, after all, boy scouts.

6. In regards to an 'operation': trying to turn someone or recruit them in other ways is operating. It is a conscious operational decision to approach someone to do something for them, like spying or just coming to work for them. https://www.cia.gov/offices-of-cia/clandestine-service/careers/careers-operations-officer.html

Some C.I.A. analysts inside the U.S. are working on collecting open-source intelligence, whether it comes from the U.S. or not. They have an operational uptempo of collect as much as possible because they want it all. Again, this is a deliberately planned operation, and it is conducted inside the U.S.

And by God, yes, the C.I.A. has a direct action wing. https://www.cia.gov/offices-of-cia/...reers/careers-specialized-skills-officer.html + https://www.cia.gov/careers/opportu...tions-officer-specialized-skills-officer.html

WARRIOR
Afghanistan, Iraq, Worldwide
From its beginning, the CIA has included a group of highly expert and dedicated officers devoted to covert action programs. The specialized capabilities and extraordinary military skills they bring to CIA’s mission have played critical, often wholly unseen and unacknowledged, roles in policy implementation in countless large and small combat arenas, as well as in other hazardous non-war-zone environments. Special Activities Division (SAD) is home to the National Clandestine Service’s covert action infrastructure. SAD officers serve globally and are called upon to respond to critical operational needs with speed, skill, and the utmost secrecy. They routinely demonstrate ingenuity, courage, and perseverance under adverse and isolated conditions. They serve and sacrifice in silence. As of the date of this publication, 57 officers from SAD and its predecessor organizations have been killed in action in the course of CIA’s history.
 
The CIA is up to no good... they should have known about anti US grumblings around the world. They've engineered coups...

I think 9/11 was blowback... but blow back was the response to decades of oppression and abuse of the people of the ME and the plummeting their resources. I do not think the wtc was CDed or the plot was hatched and directed in by the CIA or even rogue CIA, Mossad etc. People who are desperate will do insane and desperate things. 9/11 was an example.

Our military was configured to fight on battlefields not random terrorist attacked on non military targets. Our military had and has no tools to fight terrorism and was not prepared to stop 9/11 in progress.

Having said that... the after reports were deceptive and covered asses and avoiding facing the fact that our hegemonic policies around the world oppressing people give rise to terrorism.
 
1. They're not the only ones though. They also contact foreign businessmen, embassy personnel and security service personnel,
Click to expand...

AKA Foreign Nationals.


be they on an official visit or are discovered working covertly. After all, counterintelligence and counterterrorism personnel like to develop contacts and sources.
Click to expand...

If these people are inside CONUS then the FBI handles this.

2. When they try to turn someone to our side, to become a spy for us, it is absolutely done in secret.
Click to expand...

Pretty much already said that.

3. They would meet anywhere they felt did not compromise operational security. If that's an alleyway, a basement, a rooftop, a parking garage, it does not matter. It's all dependent on context e.g. what security measures exist in the area.
Click to expand...

True, they meet anywhere safe, but you just listed Hollywood locations.

4. That no new institutional knowledge for a global intelligence network.
Click to expand...

Whut?

The C.I.A. also had the Northern Alliance to work with in Afghanistan. They also had a lot of U.S. currency to hand out to win allies, like warlords.
Click to expand...

Before 9-11, 2001, the CIA wasn't working with anybody in Afghanistan in a substantive way. The Northern Alliance came to us, and we ignored them (costing us a real leader in the process) until after the attacks in NYC and DC.


5. I have. I just don't have any illusions about them, they're not, after all, boy scouts.
Click to expand...

DCI Bob Gates was a Boy Scout, and frankly, everything you've written here is based on illusion and delusion.

6. In regards to an 'operation': trying to turn someone or recruit them in other ways is operating.
Click to expand...

Nope.

Recruiting = Employment.

Asset Development = Operation


Some C.I.A. analysts inside the U.S. are working on collecting open-source intelligence, whether it comes from the U.S. or not. They have an operational uptempo of collect as much as possible because they want it all. Again, this is a deliberately planned operation, and it is conducted inside the U.S.
Click to expand...

That's not the same as "Operating" inside the U.S.

And by God, yes, the C.I.A. has a direct action wing
Click to expand...

Good. They should have had one all along.

This thinking is part of the problem with 9-11 CTists. It assumes that the CIA is everywhere, and is all-powerful. Even in the dark times of the 1960s and early 70s they had blind-spots...like most of the Soviet Union, Iran, Central Africa, and at a time when they had significant global reach. Those blind-spots only grew after the Church Committee and the reforms which followed. The CIA's embrace of technology over human intelligence has just made things worse.
9-11 CTists need the CIA to be like the Hollywood version to make their ridiculous theories work. Much of this thinking comes out of Europe, where the CIA actually operates, but it is based on a lack of knowledge of the US, and the fact that we have separate agencies which operate internally.

The other huge problem with 9-11 CTists and CT loons is evident in this thread by the absence of the other intelligence services: NSA (bigger than the CIA), NRO, DIA, Army/Navy/Air Force/Marine Corps Intelligence, NGIA, and the ODNI. Why do they get a pass? I suspect a couple of reasons, first being that you have to read a few real books, the second being that the NRO and NSA are incredibly abstract in their composition, and how they conduct business. The NRO is just a black hole that keeps information from getting to the public, and the stuff that does surface is so boring that drying paint makes fun of it. The NSA has a huge job, and a lot of moving parts.

The fact is that the NSA has gotten all the bad press over the past 6 years, some of it deserved, but 9-11 types rarely mention the gang at Meade. I wonder why that is?
 
Axxman300 said:
It clearly did in the case of the 9-11 hijackers. In the 1990s the CIA was crippled by internal risk-aversion. Worse, it was under investigation by the FBI for Alrich Ames, so nobody went near the line. A lot of good people were handed their walking papers because they simply looked like they were conduction questionable business.
Click to expand...


Sorta happy to deviate from 911 for a minute...

In 30secs what did Ames have to do with the CIA? I only ask because I remember as a teenager the FBI coming to our house to interview my father and step mother because they had worked with Ames at the American embassy in Mexico City. So I'm interested from a personal curiosity...


Sent from our shared looking glass platform
 
Axxman300 said:
AKA Foreign Nationals.









If these people are inside CONUS then the FBI handles this.







Pretty much already said that.







True, they meet anywhere safe, but you just listed Hollywood locations.







Whut?







Before 9-11, 2001, the CIA wasn't working with anybody in Afghanistan in a substantive way. The Northern Alliance came to us, and we ignored them (costing us a real leader in the process) until after the attacks in NYC and DC.









DCI Bob Gates was a Boy Scout, and frankly, everything you've written here is based on illusion and delusion.







Nope.



Recruiting = Employment.



Asset Development = Operation









That's not the same as "Operating" inside the U.S.







Good. They should have had one all along.



This thinking is part of the problem with 9-11 CTists. It assumes that the CIA is everywhere, and is all-powerful. Even in the dark times of the 1960s and early 70s they had blind-spots...like most of the Soviet Union, Iran, Central Africa, and at a time when they had significant global reach. Those blind-spots only grew after the Church Committee and the reforms which followed. The CIA's embrace of technology over human intelligence has just made things worse.

9-11 CTists need the CIA to be like the Hollywood version to make their ridiculous theories work. Much of this thinking comes out of Europe, where the CIA actually operates, but it is based on a lack of knowledge of the US, and the fact that we have separate agencies which operate internally.



The other huge problem with 9-11 CTists and CT loons is evident in this thread by the absence of the other intelligence services: NSA (bigger than the CIA), NRO, DIA, Army/Navy/Air Force/Marine Corps Intelligence, NGIA, and the ODNI. Why do they get a pass? I suspect a couple of reasons, first being that you have to read a few real books, the second being that the NRO and NSA are incredibly abstract in their composition, and how they conduct business. The NRO is just a black hole that keeps information from getting to the public, and the stuff that does surface is so boring that drying paint makes fun of it. The NSA has a huge job, and a lot of moving parts.



The fact is that the NSA has gotten all the bad press over the past 6 years, some of it deserved, but 9-11 types rarely mention the gang at Meade. I wonder why that is?
Click to expand...


Errata: I opened an early salvo on this website with a question/comment regarding the NRO's closure on 911 and it was deafeningly ignored.


Sent from our shared looking glass platform
 
JSanderO said:
Recruiting and operating are two different things. They probably have people working for them in the media... Look at the run up to the Iraq war... On the other hand their were plenty of hawks that didn't need a script handed to them...
Click to expand...

Thats impossible. After it was outed, they told us they discontinued their media manipulating Operation Mockingbird.

They wouldnt just keep it going under a new name.

Nor would they create a slicker modern better hidden version.

Anderson Cooper deleted the wiki reference to his CIA training because it was a mistake.
 
Again, framing this thread back to 9-11, it is fairly clear that while the CIA had tracked some of the AQ terrorists to our front door they didn't pursue them once they were inside. You can question how vigorously they notified the FBI, but they did pass the word along.

That's not consistent with the CT version of a CIA that does whatever it wants to.
 
I think it went down something like this:

CIA Special Agent Luther "Glutes" McFlagg stormed into the Chief's office in the abandoned underground parking garage. Before the Chief could even get a word out, McFlagg held out his hands and said, "Chief, you can't pull me off this case. I just know these al-Mihdhar and al-Hazmi characters are up to something. We found a note they left in al-Hazmi's seat back pocket after their flight in. It says, "The plan is to hijack several airliners and crash them into several large landmark buildings on the morning of 9/11." We haven't figured out what that means yet, some kind of code we think, but we know they're terrorists!"

"Forget it, McFlagg!" barked the Chief. "Those two 'characters' are on U.S. soil now, and that makes them untouchable! I'm tired of cleaning up all your messes. I've got the governor breathing down my neck on this, and I can't afford any more screw-ups."

"You gutless coward!" sneered McFlagg, putting his hands on the Chief's desk and leaning in close. "You're going to let terrorists run free because you're afraid of what some politicians will say?"

The Chief stared straight back at McFlagg. "That's enough! You're a loose cannon, McFlagg. Either you're off this case or you're off this Agency."

"That's the way you're gonna play it, eh Chief?"

"That's the way it is, McFlagg. Turn in your gun, your badge, and your invisible car!"
 
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