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It's time for a Ted Cruz thread.

Ziggurat said:
....I'm sure you're familiar with all those studies which demonstrate that people can't actually tell when someone is lying. Well, there's an obvious corollary: you can't tell when someone is telling the truth either...





...What puzzles me about your position is why you're even bothering to try to convince yourself that he's not a "true Christian". It's as if you need to believe this in order to discredit him, or at least think that it will discredit him to others. But it doesn't actually matter. What matters are his actual policies. You disagree with those policies. Fine. That's enough, that's sufficient. You don't need to search for some secret malevolence behind them.
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I certainly don't think I'm going to "discredit" him to anyone here, or any of his followers, for that matter. The reason it bothers me is just that my internal BS-detector is screaming at me, based on first-hand knowledge of the phenomenon of businessmen faking being evangelicals for personal gain, and quietly giggling at how gullible people are. My grandfather paid for me to go to a prestigious Christian school, and told me WHY I needed to fake believing in Creationism, etc, and HOW to fly under the radar. He was a deacon at a megachurch, and quietly didn't believe a word of it. It was really a bizarre way to grow up. lol :o
 
Jrrarglblarg said:
You're still using the No True fallacy to prop up your Agumment From Incredulity. None of these little fidgety bits actually offer proof Cruz is not intensely religious.
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Is there any evidence that he's not a political version of Peter Popoff, and that his "traveling preacher" father is one, too?
 
kellyb said:
Is there any evidence that he's not a political version of Peter Popoff, and that his "traveling preacher" father is one, too?
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Asking me to prove a negative now? Did you sleep through the entirety of Logic 101 or has it been too long since since freshman year?
 
kellyb said:
Right, but those people are YECs, not graduates of Princeton and Harvard like Cruz.
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What's that's supposed to prove? Dr Behe has a PhD in biochemistry at the University of Pennsylvania in 1978 for his dissertation research on sickle-cell disease. From 1978 to 1982, he did postdoctoral work on DNA structure at the National Institutes of Health. (from Wiki). Doesn't stop him from being an evolution theory denier.
 
kellyb said:
Is there any evidence that he's not a political version of Peter Popoff, and that his "traveling preacher" father is one, too?
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Yes, his lifelong Christianity.

You're just digging deeper and deeper into that hole of unsupported assertion.

I don't know enough about Popoff to say what his underlying beliefs are. But taking some I know a little more about, I don't think the fact that Tammy Faye and Jim Baker were money hungry televangelists means they weren't also true believers in Jesus.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Yes, his lifelong Christianity.

You're just digging deeper and deeper into that hole of unsupported assertion.

I don't know enough about Popoff to say what his underlying beliefs are. But taking some I know a little more about, I don't think the fact that Tammy Faye and Jim Baker were money hungry televangelists means they weren't also true believers in Jesus.
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I actually like Tammy Faye, and assume they just got greedy.

Popoff, OTOH, is a true con artist. Like, he puts the "artist" in the meaning of that term.

Saying that Popoff is really some sort of fanatical Christian deep down inside is like saying Uri Geller really believed he could magically bend spoons.
 
Jrrarglblarg said:
Asking me to prove a negative now? Did you sleep through the entirety of Logic 101 or has it been too long since since freshman year?
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I asked for evidence, not "proof."

You're aware that evidence refuting a hypothesis is standard in science, right?
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
Moving on... Cruz must be so disappointed Palin didn't endorse him.
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Agreed! :D

Trump's fake Evangelicalism is just breathtaking. (I think Trump's "fake" Christianity is more along the lines of "atheist Catholics", where after you go though confirmation, it's done. They "have" you for life, no matter what you believe.)

http://www1.cbn.com/thebrodyfile/archive/2015/10/02/donald-trumps-faith-report-on-the-700-club
"What about prayer?
"I am a praying guy," Trump said. He then pulled out a picture of him as a teenager with his confirmation class of 1959 at First Presbyterian Church in Jamaica, Queens.
"Pretty good right? I am a praying person," he said.
--------------------
"As for God's mercy, his critics went after him when he told an evangelical audience this summer that he wasn't sure he ever asked God for forgiveness. Nevertheless, he left to a standing ovation."

-------------------

When asked about who God is to him, Trump told CBN News, "Well, I say God is the ultimate."

Trump then pointed to his Southern California golf course and exclaimed, "I mean God created this. Here's the Pacific Ocean right behind us, so nobody, no thing, no there's nothing like God."
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Is he a pantheist?
 
Tero said:
He cannot be a dual citizen, as neither country recognized it. So he had to be US citizen from birth, never a Canadian. This however is not the papertrail. By having Canadian citizenship EVER, he would have had to have had it at birth.

By going to court he could prove he was never Canadian. He did not have to be.

IF he was ever Canadian, then he became naturalized only on return to the US.

You can become a US citizen against your will exactly the same way.

The mother business is secondary. By living in Canada the family became residents and ALL children born there to residents are Canadian.
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Of course you can have dual citizenship.

CANADA: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/helpcentre/answer.asp?q=356&t=5

What is dual citizenship?

Every country decides whom it considers to be a citizen. If more than one country recognizes you as a citizen, you have dual citizenship.

You do not apply for dual citizenship and there is no related certificate. Canadians are allowed to take foreign citizenship while keeping their Canadian citizenship.
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USA: http://canada.usembassy.gov/consular_services/dual-citizenship.html

Dual Citizenship

The concept of dual nationality means that a person is a citizen of two countries at the same time. Each country has its own citizenship laws based on its own policy. Persons may have dual nationality by automatic operation of different laws rather than by choice. For example, a child born in a foreign country to U.S. citizen parents may be both a U.S. citizen and a citizen of the country of birth.
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For the rest of what you have to say -- :con2:

Cruz is, and was from birth, a US citizen.
 
kellyb said:
The reason it bothers me is just that my internal BS-detector is screaming at me, based on first-hand knowledge of the phenomenon of businessmen faking being evangelicals for personal gain, and quietly giggling at how gullible people are. My grandfather paid for me to go to a prestigious Christian school, and told me WHY I needed to fake believing in Creationism, etc, and HOW to fly under the radar. He was a deacon at a megachurch, and quietly didn't believe a word of it. It was really a bizarre way to grow up. lol :o
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Yes, that's bizarre. And you recognize that it's bizarre, which also means very atypical. So why can't you recognize the fact that the existence of some people falsely proclaiming faith in a certain manner doesn't mean that everyone proclaiming faith in a similar manner must be lying? Successful fakery generally works because it imitates the form of genuine expression. But you're basically arguing that all expression of a given form is probably fake. But it doesn't work that way.

tl;dr: you're letting your personal biases cloud your judgment here. It's possible Cruz is lying about his faith, but you have no legitimate reason to believe so.
 
Ziggurat said:
But you're basically arguing that all expression of a given form is probably fake.
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No, I'm not. I think Ben Carson's 7th Day Adventist faith is 100% legit.

I also think most deacons at mega churches are legit in their faith. (you can't imagine how weird it was for me as a kid to have sleepovers at houses that actually prayed at dinner and bedtime!)

I just know for a fact that the "con artist Evangelical Christian businessman" thing is a real phenomenon, and all, and I do mean all, signs point to Cruz being one. His "traveling preacher" dad, too.
 
kellyb said:
No, I'm not. I think Ben Carson's 7th Day Adventist faith is 100% legit.

I also think most deacons at mega churches are legit in their faith. (you can't imagine how weird it was for me as a kid to have sleepovers at houses that actually prayed at dinner and bedtime!)

I just know for a fact that the "con artist Evangelical Christian businessman" thing is a real phenomenon, and all, and I do mean all, signs point to Cruz being one. His "traveling preacher" dad, too.
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"All the signs" being that he rubs you the wrong way.

Not convincing.
 
Myron Proudfoot said:
serving wine at supper??
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WE’VE all heard the phrase ‘worshipping the almighty dollar’.
But there are some people who take the phrase literally. To them, the almighty, as in God, is the key to wealth and riches. Serve him well and material wealth will be the reward.
This philosophy is the cornerstone of an American movement called “prosperity theology”, and one man who preaches its message to his Australian flock is Hillsong Church leader Brian Houston.
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http://www.news.com.au/finance/busi...h/news-story/0d6bfb50e970e99268b8834e4d657259

It all depends on how you squint your eyes when you read the bible.
 
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