It's time for a Ted Cruz thread.

[kellyb]

Why not?
[i ask out of curiosity, not out of desire to prove you wrong]

"Thou shalt not lie" is serious business to evangelicals who actually believe God is always watching them, and an invisible spiritual battle is happening all around us, where any small sin gives the forces of Satan and the invisible demons an advantage. And to lie about having an outspoken anti-theist atheist as a hero would be just unthinkable.

Weirdly, I think Carson is probably a for-real 7th Day Adventist, and values truth, and has simply fallen victim to an extreme case of memory-embellishment.

 

[kellyb]

No, it's very weak evidence. One can admire someone without sharing all their beliefs. Not everything Ayn Rand said requires one to be an atheist to agree with it. But even supposing that the two are incompatible (which, again, is a false assumption) and so he cannot be telling the truth, why are you further assuming that it's his religious beliefs and not his admiration for Ayn Rand that he's lying about?

One could be some sort of "meh" generic Christian and admire Ayn Rand, for sure (probably the case with Ron Paul), but not a crazed Evangelical full-on theocrat.

Also, when you hear him tell his conversion story, it's so obviously an act, on par with scam artist televangelists.

eta:

why are you further assuming that it's his religious beliefs and not his admiration for Ayn Rand that he's lying about

Because his most meaningful policy proposals and advocacy line up with Rand's vision of social darwinism.

 

[ddt]

The traveling preacher?

He appears to be a career con artist, too.

http://www.allthingsdemocrat.com/20...fael-cruz-part-2-the-phony-immigration-story/

Wow. Daddy Cruz certainly makes stuff up about his bio. The first page is also worth reading. He claims to have been a Castro supporter for 4 years (from 14-18 years old), is suddenly released from prison by Batista, and then:

Well I got home. My father took me home. I was eighteen years old and… I had been home about an hour and a lady from the underground whom I didn’t know came and said “Look, you’re being followed. There are two people assigned to follow you around the clock in shifts of eight hours. She brought me to the window of the living room and she said “You see that guy in that corner, and that guy in the other corner, those are the two assigned to follow you now.”

Has he mistaken a script from Allo Allo for his bio?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

"Thou shalt not lie" is serious business to evangelicals who actually believe God is always watching them, and an invisible spiritual battle is happening all around us, where any small sin gives the forces of Satan and the invisible demons an advantage. And to lie about having an outspoken anti-theist atheist as a hero would be just unthinkable.

Weirdly, I think Carson is probably a for-real 7th Day Adventist, and values truth, and has simply fallen victim to an extreme case of memory-embellishment.

Evangelicals and other theists simply rationalize their beliefs, they never see their hypocrisy as lying.

You haven't made your case, in fact I don't get it at all. Here's a guy raised in a religious household, he went to parochial schools, he wears his religion on his sleeve, has frequently supported religious causes.

Where on Earth do you take away from that, that he's a religious panderer and not an actual Evangelical?

Here’s what we know about the faith of Sen. Cruz, who’s set to announce his 2016 bid at Liberty University

 

[kellyb]

I think his father is a religious con artist for political gain, too - a political version of Peter Popoff, getting money from Freedomworks instead of from people looking to have their arthritis magically healed.

 

[maxpower1227]

Cruz can be a sleazy con man - which I believe he is, and he can be an admirer of Ayn Rand-style selfishness and greed - which I suspect he is, and still be a genuine true believer in the right-wing social conservative brand of Christianity. I know very well people who have far-right views quite similar to Cruz's, and I do not doubt the sincerity of their professed religious beliefs for a second.

 

[kellyb]

Cruz can be a sleazy con man - which I believe he is, and he can be an admirer of Ayn Rand-style selfishness and greed - which I suspect he is, and still be a genuine true believer in the right-wing social conservative brand of Christianity. I know very well people who have far-right views quite similar to Cruz's, and I do not doubt the sincerity of their professed religious beliefs for a second.

Right, but they're the followers, not the leading con men themselves.

Question: Would an Ayn Randian atheist be able to sell themselves truthfully for who and what they are to Republicans if they sought political office? If I were a social darwinist seeking political power, I could absolutely fake being an Evangelical (having been raised in that environment, by a fake evangelical who went to church for business reasons exclusively.)

Also, I will enter in the infallible argument by youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqpHTFJO4mE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5sDkeapO7oE

 

[Ziggurat]

One could be some sort of "meh" generic Christian and admire Ayn Rand, for sure (probably the case with Ron Paul), but not a crazed Evangelical full-on theocrat.

And what makes you so sure that those are the only kinds of Christians around?

Also, when you hear him tell his conversion story, it's so obviously an act, on par with scam artist televangelists.

I'm sure you're familiar with all those studies which demonstrate that people can't actually tell when someone is lying. Well, there's an obvious corollary: you can't tell when someone is telling the truth either.

Because his most meaningful policy proposals and advocacy line up with Rand's vision of social darwinism.

The idea that government isn't responsible for everything, that private charity should play a large role in social wellfare, is hardly incompatible with Christian belief.

What puzzles me about your position is why you're even bothering to try to convince yourself that he's not a "true Christian". It's as if you need to believe this in order to discredit him, or at least think that it will discredit him to others. But it doesn't actually matter. What matters are his actual policies. You disagree with those policies. Fine. That's enough, that's sufficient. You don't need to search for some secret malevolence behind them.

 

[ponderingturtle]

No, it's very weak evidence. One can admire someone without sharing all their beliefs. Not everything Ayn Rand said requires one to be an atheist to agree with it. But even supposing that the two are incompatible (which, again, is a false assumption) and so he cannot be telling the truth, why are you further assuming that it's his religious beliefs and not his admiration for Ayn Rand that he's lying about?

I am just wondering what ideas Jesus put forward that are compatible with those that Rand put forward.

 

[Tero]

Cruz does seem to have a citizenship problem. He was born 1970 or so and Canada and the US did not have a dual citizen deal worked out till 1978. If he was ever Canadian...and he thinks he was...there is some explaining to do.

 

[Ziggurat]

Cruz does seem to have a citizenship problem. He was born 1970 or so and Canada and the US did not have a dual citizen deal worked out till 1978. If he was ever Canadian...and he thinks he was...there is some explaining to do.

If Canada granted him citizenship when they shouldn't have, that's Canada's problem, not Cruz's. And whether or not Canada considered him a citizen doesn't control whether or not the US considered him a citizen.

 

[Tero]

If Canada granted him citizenship when they shouldn't have, that's Canada's problem, not Cruz's. And whether or not Canada considered him a citizen doesn't control whether or not the US considered him a citizen.

The US nevertheless has to decide what his situation was. If they were residents...not visitors, diplomats etc....then he was born Canadian.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_nationality_law#Birth_in_Canada

The US can accept him at any time (he had the right to return). He was 4 when he returned. It looks, however, like a naturalization at age 4.

 

[Trebuchet]

He was born Canadian, by his parents being there, and American, because his mother was a US citizen. He renounced his Canadian citizenship a couple of years ago, and says he didn't even know about it until then. That's probably one of the few things he's truthful about. It's a non-issue.

Lots of Christian idiots idolize Rand because they hate the government.

 

[Ziggurat]

The US nevertheless has to decide what his situation was. If they were residents...not visitors, diplomats etc....then he was born Canadian.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_nationality_law#Birth_in_Canada

Canadian law isn't relevant to the question of US citizenship. Only US law is.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

The US nevertheless has to decide what his situation was. If they were residents...not visitors, diplomats etc....then he was born Canadian.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_nationality_law#Birth_in_Canada

The US can accept him at any time (he had the right to return). He was 4 when he returned. It looks, however, like a naturalization at age 4.

Cruz is a US citizen because his mother is. He didn't have to naturalized. Where did you get this idea from?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I am just wondering what ideas Jesus put forward that are compatible with those that Rand put forward.

Jesus has nothing to do with it. There's a whole faction of Christians who believe God rewards good Christians with wealth.

Pat Robertson and the late Jerry Falwell's brand of Christian follows that branch of Christianity.

 

[Tero]

Cruz is a US citizen because his mother is. He didn't have to naturalized. Where did you get this idea from?

He cannot be a dual citizen, as neither country recognized it. So he had to be US citizen from birth, never a Canadian. This however is not the papertrail. By having Canadian citizenship EVER, he would have had to have had it at birth.

By going to court he could prove he was never Canadian. He did not have to be.

IF he was ever Canadian, then he became naturalized only on return to the US.

You can become a US citizen against your will exactly the same way.

The mother business is secondary. By living in Canada the family became residents and ALL children born there to residents are Canadian.

 

[Dr. Keith]

He cannot be a dual citizen, as neither country recognized it.

But there is no reason that the two countries have to agree on his citizenship. Canada may label him Canadian while the US labels him American.

My god, am I actually defending Cruz. Look what you made me do!!!

 

[kellyb]

Jesus has nothing to do with it. There's a whole faction of Christians who believe God rewards good Christians with wealth.

Pat Robertson and the late Jerry Falwell's brand of Christian follows that branch of Christianity.

Right, but those people are YECs, not graduates of Princeton and Harvard like Cruz.

 

[Jrrarglblarg]

Right, but those people are YECs, not graduates of Princeton and Harvard like Cruz.

You're still using the No True fallacy to prop up your Agumment From Incredulity. None of these little fidgety bits actually offer proof Cruz is not intensely religious.