Continuation Part 19: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[LondonJohn]

I believe that Peter Reilly stated to the cops something similar and it is believed by most to be a false confession.

That's true.

And contrary to some bone-headed attempts at rationalisation, this is a clear-as-day example of the police investigators making improper (and manifestly imperfect) attempts to read the mind of the person in front of them.

In this instance, it doesn't take more than a modicum of intelligence and objectivity to understand that if the police went into the interrogation with the a priori assumption that Knox was present at the murder and had facilitated the murderer, and if the sole aim of that interrogation was to get Knox to "buckle and tell them what they already knew to be true", then all sorts of confirmation bias and tunnel vision would be highly likely to colour their subjective interpretations of Knox's psychiatric state throughout the interrogation.

 

[bagels]

It shows Italian police interview techniques are effective.

The interrogation wasn't effective by any definition.

1. it didn't reveal any information about the crime
2. it landed at least one innocent person in jail
3. it failed to secure any usable information for securing a conviction against anybody

No matter what side of the case you are on, the interrogation was a failure.

I'm not necessarily an anti-interrogation activist. If Amanda had information about the crime they should have tried to get it out of her, and gotten it on video. They clearly weren't interested.

 

[acbytesla]

The interrogation wasn't effective by any definition.

1. it didn't reveal any information about the crime
2. it landed at least one innocent person in jail
3. it failed to secure any usable information for securing a conviction against anybody

No matter what side of the case you are on, the interrogation was a failure.

I'm not necessarily an anti-interrogation activist. If Amanda had information about the crime they should have tried to get it out of her, and gotten it on video. They clearly weren't interested.

Now that's not fair Bagels That's the problem with the PIP. We always get certain things wrong. It was in fact, very effective. It got a scared young woman to buckle and tell them what they already knew.

 

[Numbers]

Comparative Law: US Opinions v Italian Motivation Reports

-The appellate level was not brought into the conversation by me. In fact I pointed out they primarily only deal with legal issues. The appellate rulings are general based on technical legal issues and often aren't particularly easy to understand.

I did a little research on the opinions of the US Federal Court of Appeals, 9th Circuit (includes Washington State and other west-coast States). By little, I mean I examined the two most recent criminal-case opinions available on the 9th Circuit's web site:

http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/opinions/

1. The first case required only a judgment on a point of law; that was all that the appellant was seeking. It was 10 pages long, and IMO, perfectly clear. No fancy language. The opinion stated that a US Federal law making misstatements to a bank an offense did not require that the bank suffer a financial loss, based on a literal reading of the statute.

2. The second case required a review of the interpretation of evidence by a jury; this interpretation important to a sentencing decision in a case involving a conspiracy to distribute heroin. There was also a question about whether some of the prosecution questioning of a defense witness had been admissible or not. It was 27 pages long, and IMO, perfectly clear. No fancy language or Latin jargon, no literary flights, all perfectly straight-forward.

Of interest, the Court of Appeals reversed the sentencing decision and sent the case back for re-sentencing, because that depended on the amount of heroin sold, and the Court of Appeals found that the jury of the District Court had based its sentencing decision on a speculation that the amount sold would eventually exceed a 1 kilogram limit, rather than on a reasonable estimate of the actual amount sold during the period the conspiracy was operating. The Court of Appeals reviewed the evidence testimony and performed its own calculations in making this judgment.

The question of the witness testimony was decided in favor of the government because the defense witness had volunteered some information - that her brother was not involved with drugs - which very likely she knew to be false, since he had been previously imprisoned on a drug charge and had escaped, and thus her testimony could be impeached. And the Court of Appeals hypothesized if this question was an abuse of discretion by the District Court, there was other incontrovertible evidence including cell phone records and co-conspirator testimony to convict the brother, so that the error by the District Court was harmless.

 

[acbytesla]

I did a little research on the opinions of the US Federal Court of Appeals, 9th Circuit (includes Washington State and other west-coast States). By little, I mean I examined the two most recent criminal-case opinions available on the 9th Circuit's web site:

http://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/opinions/

1. The first case required only a judgment on a point of law; that was all that the appellant was seeking. It was 10 pages long, and IMO, perfectly clear. No fancy language. The opinion stated that a US Federal law making misstatements to a bank an offense did not require that the bank suffer a financial loss, based on a literal reading of the statute.

2. The second case required a review of the interpretation of evidence by a jury; this interpretation important to a sentencing decision in a case involving a conspiracy to distribute heroin. There was also a question about whether some of the prosecution questioning of a defense witness had been admissible or not. It was 27 pages long, and IMO, perfectly clear. No fancy language or Latin jargon, no literary flights, all perfectly straight-forward.

Of interest, the Court of Appeals reversed the sentencing decision and sent the case back for re-sentencing, because that depended on the amount of heroin sold, and the Court of Appeals found that the jury of the District Court had based its sentencing decision on a speculation that the amount sold would eventually exceed a 1 kilogram limit, rather than on a reasonable estimate of the actual amount sold during the period the conspiracy was operating. The Court of Appeals reviewed the evidence testimony and performed its own calculations in making this judgment.

The question of the witness testimony was decided in favor of the government because the defense witness had volunteered some information - that her brother was not involved with drugs - which very likely she knew to be false, since he had been previously imprisoned on a drug charge and had escaped, and thus her testimony could be impeached. And the Court of Appeals hypothesized if this question was an abuse of discretion by the District Court, there was other incontrovertible evidence including cell phone records and co-conspirator testimony to convict the brother, so that the error by the District Court was harmless.

Excellent research as always Numbers.

 

[Desert Fox]

Everybody might be interested in reading the court opinion on Derek Tice.

It is 41 pages and simply clearly lays out the case in question
http://www.norfolkfour.com/images/uploads/pdf_files/Tice_Opinion.pdf

 

[Zephyrgeist]

Mignini's LAST theory is that Amanda was OUTSIDE of Meredith's bedroom, Orchestrating it all.

This ABROGATES all of his previous theories. PERIOD.

THEREFORE: For some strange reason, Amanda Never Set foot in Meredith's Bedroom. Raffaele's apartment owner's kitchen knife wasn't used. MIGNINI (Amanda never NEVER ENTERED THE ROOM. His last theory ... to this day).

That ridiculous kitchen knife wasn't even owned by RAFFAELE!

It was just one more unsharpened knife, too long for any wound in Meredith's neck, in his [rented] kitchen drawer.

 

[analemma]

These cops had to witness the brutal murder. They know the perp is likely to be an unfeeling psycho. Perhaps you'd like to suggest how they go about their duties?

Perhaps they should sack all the tough hard guys and employ nursery nannies instead, in case psycho killer gets upset and accidentally blurts out incriminating stuff.

We can all handle tough cops
We need to fire the GESTAPO Cops: the cops who beat up 20 year old women students that do not speak their language because the cops "know" her to be guilty
Those are the cops that no one needs
It is hard to understand why Vixen loves this type of Cop.
Although Vixen loves this kind of cop: It must be a product of his love for the police states that only flourish if protected by this type of Cop.

 

[truethat]

I'll throw in here to give a perspective, but more to get the take of different opinions of people in this thread.

I had an incident that happened when I was a kid that to this day I have no idea what happened.

I must have been about 12 years old. It was during the summer and my mother was of the drunk and passed out on the living room couch variety. Everyone in my family was home. (There were 5 kids in my family at that time, my oldest sister was 13, then me 12, then 7, 5, and 3.

My father was meandering around and all the kids came down to the kitchen to eat. I was then sent back up to my room (I was generally permanently grounded) I was in the room lying on my back with my legs crossed propped up against the wall, reading magazines. I could physically see my legs at this point.

I hear my mother start yelling for either my sister or me to come downstairs. I didn't want to deal with my mother and so I waited for my sister to answer. When my mom kept calling I finally started to get up but then I heard her talking to someone so I assumed that my sister had gone. A few seconds later I heard someone stomp up the stairs and slam the attic door. I remember thinking that my sister was going to get in a **** load of trouble for that.

Finally about 10 minutes later my father is knocking on my door and opening it. "Why didn't you go get the book?" he asks. "What book?" "Your mother told you to go the attic and get her book."

I said "oh no that wasn't me!" Now I get pulled downstairs and I am told that my mother saw ME standing on the stairs. It couldn't have been my sister because she had gone to the playground with my brother and sisters.

At first I thought maybe I called out a reply to her and she just assumed I was on the stairs. But then I remembered the stomping up the stairs and the slamming of the door.

My family insisted that I had been on the stairs. I knew very well that I was not on the stairs. I remember thinking, not only did I know it, the way I was sitting with my legs on the wall I physically SAW myself in the room.

They insisted and insisted. I absolutely wouldn't budge. BUT at one point I started questioning my sanity. My father also said he SAW me on the stairs. I started convincing myself that if they both saw me then maybe I was crazy, or had a split personality or something, because I couldn't make sense of what they were telling me.

I think now, that they confused me with my sister and she stomped up the stairs angry and then left the house instead of getting the book and she knew they were blaming me so she just kept her mouth shut and kept lying.

They thought I was bonkers and I finally said maybe it was a ghost. My mom was big on ghosts so she jumped on that conclusion. LOL

But I can see how someone could totally believe that they were insane if people kept lying to them and saying things like "Your fingerprints were found on the murder weapon! We have evidence that you were in the room! This is what happened! Why can't you remember? Just remember."

In light of such a serious surreal event of your roommate being murdered, can't you all see the possibility that Amanda Knox really thought some crazy thing happened and she doesn't remember it?

 

[Mike1711]

False confessions are his subject speciality. He no longer advocates for Amanda.

There is zero evidence Amanda was subjected to police brutality, torture or forced confession.

Amanda herself remarks in her Prison Diary the police were much better skilled at questioning than the busybodies she met in prison.

The police are trained in examination techniques to get to the truth. That doesn't equal torture.

What exactly did Knox confess to?

Being terrified in the house whilst cowering in the corner then fingering the wrong person without any prospect of personal gain.

Helluva confession that. Wow!!!

Clearly, she didn't have a clue pointing to a dreadful odour of police coercion.

Only the blind or stupidly vengeful cannot see this.

 

[Zephyrgeist]

Moderators, it's New Year's Eve

I suggest that you look the other way / pardon - (even Yourselves!) - for what is written before the New Year

Peace

 

[acbytesla]

What exactly did Knox confess to?

Being terrified in the house whilst cowering in the corner then fingering the wrong person without any prospect of personal gain.

Helluva confession that. Wow!!!

Clearly, she didn't have a clue pointing to a dreadful odour of police coercion.

Only the blind or stupidly vengeful cannot see this.

I know, it's absurd. What's even more so absurd is she "confusiedly remembers that" Perhaps it is confusing because it didn't happen? Perhaps because the police led her to confusedly remembering? Perhaps because they got her to buckle?

Perhaps?

 

[Bill Williams]

What exactly did Knox confess to?

Being terrified in the house whilst cowering in the corner then fingering the wrong person without any prospect of personal gain.

Helluva confession that. Wow!!!

Clearly, she didn't have a clue pointing to a dreadful odour of police coercion.

Only the blind or stupidly vengeful cannot see this.

What the coerced false confessions didn't do was implicate Sollecito. They thought theyd had Raffaele with the flick-knife and the Nikes. Ooooooops.

They used Raffaele to get at Knox, and used Knox to get at Lumumba. Oooooooops.

But it was a narrative lacking a role for Raffaele, really, that caused the thing to collapse. The visit to the crime scene 46 days later tried to backfill the narrative - a new one with Lumumba gone and second-storey man Guede in the picture - someone who Raffaele had never even met.

All of THAT is the poisoned fruit of the investigative incompetence which plagued the thing.

Neither RS nor AK had a clue as to what transpired at the horrible crime. That should have been evident, eight years later it's the Kerchers who bear the brunt of what Mignini wrought.

 

[Vixen]

What is baffling is the resistance the PGP folks have to seeing that interrogations have resulted in false confessions. When reading on the other side they just hate the innocence projects, not just some but all. The more celebrated the more they hate it.

I do wonder what the underlying difference there is between people that see the authorities often make mistakes and are not universally virtuous.

Firstly, the PGP are not an homogenous group.

IMV (only) some of the so-called 'Innocenters' look a bit dodgy. One poured oil over a cat and set it on fire, killing it. Many seem to be the result of 'someone else' confessing on their deathbed and an attorney miraculously pops up waving the confessions of the deceased. How do we know the deceased are not simply leaving a legacy to others as their anti-social present to society?

One attorney got a death row inmate to confess to twelve (IIRC) murders which were revealed after his death to enable this attorney to get rich, freeing the 'Innocents' 'wrongly convicted'. ISTM this is an abuse of legal privilege.

 

[Vixen]

Not really. It shows you ignored the salient part of my post and focused only what you vehemently disagreed with How would I know what you thought about the rest of my my post? What is it when we assume?

It does show that defending authority is a hot button issue with you.

Not so. I am the biggest campaigner against true injustice. We have to pray that our leaders do the right thing. Of course we have to back them.

I bet you are the first to call the police if anyone attacks you or you are in an accident. Heaven forfend if one of your family were attacked, but I bet you'd want the cops to come down hard on the perp then, and you wouldn't want them prancing around free claiming to be the victim.

 

[acbytesla]

Firstly, the PGP are not an homogenous group.

IMV (only) some of the so-called 'Innocenters' look a bit dodgy. One poured oil over a cat and set it on fire, killing it. Many seem to be the result of 'someone else' confessing on their deathbed and an attorney miraculously pops up waving the confessions of the deceased. How do we know the deceased are not simply leaving a legacy to others as their anti-social present to society?

One attorney got a death row inmate to confess to twelve (IIRC) murders which were revealed after his death to enable this attorney to get rich, freeing the 'Innocents' 'wrongly convicted'. ISTM this is an abuse of legal privilege.

Did you "confusedly remember all this"?

But, I agree, the PGP is not a homogeneous group. Some of them pretend to be lawyers, some of them only pretend to have gone to law school, some only talk to God and only one (that I know of) actually is God.

 

[Vixen]

No, it was in the context of the police shouting at her that:

1) they knew Lumumba was the killer;
2) they knew (and had proof) that Knox was present at the time of the murder;
3) they would enact far, far greater punishment upon Knox unless she "remembered" the above;4) they knew Knox was suppressing her memory of events owing to a psychological condition (as supported and exampled by the "interpreter")

that Knox "confessed" to being present and "accused" Lumumba of being the killer.


At least I know what one of my New Year's resolutions will be tomorrow. And I intend to stick to it religiously

It is not a defence to say you didn't know murder carried a life sentence.

 

[Vixen]

That's true.

And contrary to some bone-headed attempts at rationalisation, this is a clear-as-day example of the police investigators making improper (and manifestly imperfect) attempts to read the mind of the person in front of them.

In this instance, it doesn't take more than a modicum of intelligence and objectivity to understand that if the police went into the interrogation with the a priori assumption that Knox was present at the murder and had facilitated the murderer, and if the sole aim of that interrogation was to get Knox to "buckle and tell them what they already knew to be true", then all sorts of confirmation bias and tunnel vision would be highly likely to colour their subjective interpretations of Knox's psychiatric state throughout the interrogation.

Then it's fortuitous the police had tons more evidence against her anyway.

 

[Vixen]

Deleted.

 

[Vixen]

What exactly did Knox confess to?

Being terrified in the house whilst cowering in the corner then fingering the wrong person without any prospect of personal gain.

Helluva confession that. Wow!!!

Clearly, she didn't have a clue pointing to a dreadful odour of police coercion.

Only the blind or stupidly vengeful cannot see this.

She confessed to meeting Patrick at the basketball court and procuring him for sex with Meredith. She said she witnessed Mez' murder, heard a thud, heard her screams.

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.