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Continuation Part 19: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Not "drawn from opposite sources", Bill. The SC does not draw elements from opposite sources, cannot do that as for art. 606, can only analyze judges' reports and the specific trial documents submitted. Does not deal with the opposite parties claims in the trial.
So, Bill, there are no opposite sources in the paragraphs. Moreover the paragraph 9.2 emphasizes that contradictory elements against and in favor are objective and that those element are those as they can be found in the Nencini and Massei rulings.
All circumstances that B/M points out and presents as "objective findings", they are not something subjected to condition or possibility, they are pointed out as certainty. Whenever B/M says "certain" or "proven" (manifest), it means nothing else than "certain" and "proven" without leaving any possibility for you to frame it into a hypothesis.
At this point you are manifestly illogical.

Where do those "specific trial documents" come from?

a synoptic presentation of the
elements favourable to the hypothesis of guilt and of the elements against it, as
they are shown, of course, by the text of the challenged ruling and of the previous
ones.​

So.... you say there are "objective findings" only from Massei and Nencini!? LOL! "..........the text of the challenged ruling and of the previous
ones."


I'm tired of playing this game with you. Soon you will have no one to argue with.
 
Not "drawn from opposite sources", Bill. The SC does not draw elements from opposite sources, cannot do that as for art. 606, can only analyze judges' reports and the specific trial documents submitted. Does not deal with the opposite parties claims in the trial.
So, Bill, there are no opposite sources in the paragraphs. Moreover the paragraph 9.2 emphasizes that contradictory elements against and in favor are objective and that those element are those ase they can be found in the Nencini and Massei rulings.
All circumstances that B/M points out and presents as "objective findings", they are not something subjected to condition or possibility, they are pointed out as certainty. Whenever B/M says "certain" or "proven" (manifest), it means nothing else than "certain" and "proven" without leaving any possibility for you to frame it into a hypothesis.
And I point out again that B/M states things like AK washed her hands from Meredith's blood, they believe she heard Meredith's scream, the calunnia was malicious and was to cover up for Guede, and it us an incontrovertible truth that Meredith was killed by more than one person.
Presents those as obvious facts.
All this does not take away the fact that B/M also contradicts itself glaringly by making also statements with contrary implication (which are not synoptical, but contradictory). This only shows that B/M is a foolish Mad Hatter's declaration saying "the American perp is always right", and it's always tea time: it's a political verdict that serves a colonialist power, telling that law justice truth and logic can f*** themselves.
There isn't any presentation of contrasting possibilities from different sources, no framing in any hypothetical reasoning, only a Dadaist foolish scissors work.



This is what I am asking about. WHERE does B/M derive this information (facts) from? These facts are "obvious"? From what source? Washed hands of her blood etc? There is a finding of fact to that effect by lower courts? You are not suggesting, are you, that it was interpretive by the ISC?

And then of course you follow up with your Mad Hatter comments. Is this not as contradictory as anything? Why do you glean one thing as factual, and another as Mad Hatter? Isn't the whole thing Mad Hatter? Why should we choose to believe one over the other?

Especially since you seem unable (unwilling?) to give a source for these findings of fact which seem so important to you and also PIP posters.
 
At this point you are manifestly illogical.

Where do those "specific trial documents" come from?

​

So.... you say there are "objective findings" only from Massei and Nencini!? LOL! "..........the text of the challenged ruling and of the previous
ones."


I'm tired of playing this game with you. Soon you will have no one to argue with.



Machiavelli has a lot invested in these "objective findings", yet there is no revelation as to where they are. I know that they are not just in his head. Right?


PS: Like it makes any difference. Mad Hatter part, Mad Hatter whole! Verdict says no way to prove beyond a reasonable doubt due to irregularities (let's call it) so throw the whole POS out!
 
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I believe M&B says more or less what the PGP believe they say.

You're mistaken, so is Grinder. Mike 1711 has the right of it. That line has to be read with the understanding that the ISC cannot rule on evidence (in that manner) and knows that, even Cheffi, which is why he and company employed such painful sophistry and legalism to pretend they weren't.

In that context the passage cannot mean what you and others think it does, but they can certainly point out that even if that lower court was correct to rely on that evidence (Amanda's gift note etc) to establish Amanda was at the cottage it doesn't prove she was guilty of murder.

Of course they made mistakes on the endless myriad details surrounding this case, like who introduced the sexual aspect, everyone who ever wrote about the case has, journalists, lawyers, judges and posters on the internet--including myself of course.

Read Mike's posts on this subject again.
 
No, you are wrong. The words "dato conclamato" may only refer to something that turns out as self-evident , something that everyone can see. The semantics of the word conclamato refers always to what is indisputable as for its nature. The verb conclamare (actually not used in contemporary Italian language) always means the acknowledging of something indisputable, manifestly true.
The B/M court this way are calling the fact "manifest", it turned out to be proven in an obvious way, that they can see as undisputable.
But in addition to this, B/M also calls Knox's presence "certain" on page 49, and builds a reasoning taking this assumption as an objective premise. This means they do take a position, they are reporting what they believe as facts, not what the lower court said. And within such reasoning, B/M points out that it is Raffaele Sollecito the one whose presence at the time of murder is uncertain.

I can understand this explanation as regards the B/M court writings/reasonings as to prior facts of the courts. But what about the "however" part where they essentially do away with those facts and go on to negate the prior courts reasonings/facts? What is it that you find unconvincing concerning B/M explanation for doing so?
 
Your question about US appeal court decisions is neither simple not particularly relevant to the AK - RS case.

A US appeal court opinion gives reasons for a court decision and is, in general, relatively short and easy to understand

-The appellate level was not brought into the conversation by me. In fact I pointed out they primarily only deal with legal issues. The appellate rulings are general based on technical legal issues and often aren't particularly easy to understand.
 
Where do those "specific trial documents" come from?

​

So.... you say there are "objective findings" only from Massei and Nencini!? LOL! "..........the text of the challenged ruling and of the previous
ones."


I'm tired of playing this game with you. Soon you will have no one to argue with.

No Bill he said - "can only analyze judges' reports and the specific trial documents submitted."

The text of M&B does say from the previous trials, doesn't it?
 
You're mistaken, so is Grinder. Mike 1711 has the right of it. That line has to be read with the understanding that the ISC cannot rule on evidence (in that manner) and knows that, even Cheffi, which is why he and company employed such painful sophistry and legalism to pretend they weren't.

Perhaps you would touch up the translation of the questioned section. While I have immense trust in your work the current translation makes bagels POV sensible to me.

Did you see any of the articles I posted in the last day or so on the ruling? I posted a section perhaps you could take a look at it.

ETA - And this section seems clear - how would you explain it?

With this premise, with regards to Amanda Knox’s position, it is now
observed that her presence in the house, the scene of the murder, is an acclaimed
fact of the trial, based on her own admissions, also contained in her signed memorial,
in the part where she explains how, when she was in the kitchen, after the young
Englishwoman and another person went into Kercher’s room to have sex, she heard
her friend’s harrowing scream, to the lacerating and unbearable point that she slid
down, squatting on the floor, holding her hands firmly on her ears, so as to hear no
more of it. On this point, the reliability of the opinion of the judge a quo [of the trial
from which this appeal is being heard
is certainly acceptable concerning this part of
the accused’s account
,
 
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You're mistaken, so is Grinder. Mike 1711 has the right of it. That line has to be read with the understanding that the ISC cannot rule on evidence (in that manner) and knows that, even Cheffi, which is why he and company employed such painful sophistry and legalism to pretend they weren't.

In that context the passage cannot mean what you and others think it does, but they can certainly point out that even if that lower court was correct to rely on that evidence (Amanda's gift note etc) to establish Amanda was at the cottage it doesn't prove she was guilty of murder.
...........................

Read Mike's posts on this subject again.

How many times does this need to be said? M/B is ruling on whether or not the two were part of the murder. They were not.

It defies logic to then try to clam that M/B were admitting that AK/RS were there - at the time of the murder - yet then proceeded to acquit. It cannot be any more obvious that this "synopsis" M/B propose includes a timeline extending into at least the midmorning of Nov 2.

That's precisely why they can both say that "she was there" but that that does not necessarily convict. Why? Because that synopsis includes the possibility that AK was there mid-morning of Nov 2!!!

Why is this hard to understand..... esp. for those supposedly not confirmation-biased to distort regardless?
 
Bill Williams said:
Where do those "specific trial documents" come from?
So.... you say there are "objective findings" only from Massei and Nencini!? LOL! "..........the text of the challenged ruling and of the previous ones."
I'm tired of playing this game with you. Soon you will have no one to argue with.

No Bill he said - "can only analyze judges' reports and the specific trial documents submitted."

The text of M&B does say from the previous trials, doesn't it?

Yes. See highlighted part above. That would include the Hellmann trial.

I can see it now - the argument will be, "Hellmann was annuled." The Hellmann verdict was annuled. Apparently, some of the "objective findings" of the Hellmann trial were not. For instance, the only part of the C&V findings "annulled" (if you can put it that way) was with regard to the refusal/alleged-inability to test 36I at the Hellmann trial.
 
In that context the passage cannot mean what you and others think it does, but they can certainly point out that even if that lower court was correct to rely on that evidence (Amanda's gift note etc) to establish Amanda was at the cottage it doesn't prove she was guilty of murder.

One more time, they write she was there during the scream and the judge believing that was "certainly acceptable". My reading is she was there but not involved - not guilty.

I doubt anyone that is not PG believe she was there during the murder.

Regardless of what they meant the writing she could have been there but wasn't involved is insane.
 
Important points to keep in mind when arguing the "factuality" of claims folk say the M/B-report says.

Mike1711 said:
Once again a complete twist from a person with no legal background. Empirical facts are facts regardless. Legal facts are there by definition despite the FACT the they may be utterly false.
Mike1711 said:
Wake up. Every court appeal synopsis contains the postulations from each side but does not necessarily pronounce on the idiocy or otherwise of either defence or prosecution.

FACT! The B/M court of appeal is not interested in whether Knox was or wasn't present. They determined that even if they were present the evidence of involvement in the murder is zero/nada/nil/nothing.

To read anything beyond this in the B/M report is either pure fantasy or mischievous twisting of law and its own workings.
Get it?
Mike1711 said:
You refuse to understand. ...or does it suit to be obtuse?

It was a "proven fact" in the lower court. This does NOT mean that B/M agree or disagree. In fact it is upencumbant upon the B/M court NOT to have an opinion on this "judicial fact".

Which is exactly why the appeal court stated that even if they were there (as "proven" BY THE LOWER COURT) it is not enough to prove guilt.

Of course the B/M court are not allowed to voice their opinion on the farcical judicial fact but I would bet my last dollar that their belief is that it is utter codswallop.
Mike1711 said:
It matters not one iota of the nuances of the Italian language. What matters is that the ISC were not considering whether Knox was or wasn't at the crime scene. That was NOT their job.

What concerned the Italian ISC is the quantum leap required from presumed (Judicially proved if you will) presence in a location to proved murder.

This quantum leap defies law as much as it does logic.

The ISC ruling was that to find guilt it requires more than proving that the accused was in the vicinity of the crime. Even if the ISC accepts the lower court ruling, which it seems bound to do, it proves nothing. The appeal court rightly makes no stand on this "judicial fact".

The ISC have no mandate to enter into a debate on Judicial facts so your contention that they do is nonsense. Why would they when they are bound to accept that which has been rubber stamped by the lower court?

In law very little is indisputable which is why the term "beyond a reasonable doubt" exists.

What mental gymnastics would you perform about all these "proven facts" if after his release from prison, Guede proved categorically that he was the sole perpertrator?
 
Yes. See highlighted part above. That would include the Hellmann trial.

I can see it now - the argument will be, "Hellmann was annuled." The Hellmann verdict was annuled. Apparently, some of the "objective findings" of the Hellmann trial were not. For instance, the only part of the C&V findings "annulled" (if you can put it that way) was with regard to the refusal/alleged-inability to test 36I at the Hellmann trial.

The only court rulings in effect when M&B ruled was Massei, Nencini and Chieffi. They didn't wipe out the evidence as in C&V would be my guess, afterall M&B said the DNA work was garbage. Of course they could say they got it from the three trial verdicts not annulled.
 
I don't speak or read Italian. Nor do I think I need to understand the BM motivation and decision. The simple reason for that is that I understand "context". One can derive what a word means from its context in a sentence or a paragraph or a confusing phrase in its context in a paragraph or page.

The same goes for the motivation. BM acquitted Amanda and Raffaele. That is definitive. Machiavelli, Vixen and others are essentially saying this is not so. They are saying that the motivation is saying is saying that Amanda was there during the murder and she washed her hands in Meredith's blood. This impossible to believe given the context of the motivation and the reaction of the press. It is far more believable that it is a hypothetical.

As has been pointed out, if it actually said that Amanda was there and washed her hands in Merddjth's blood, don't you think that would be headlines all over the world?

As it is, the only people trying to twist the meaning of the motivation are the usual suspects. The same clan of crazies who think down is up a d the earth is not round.

The choice is simple, we can keep listening to Machiavelli dietrology or listen to the sound of silence of the world press. Wake me up when it is in the New York Times.
 
The only court rulings in effect when M&B ruled was Massei, Nencini and Chieffi. They didn't wipe out the evidence as in C&V would be my guess, afterall M&B said the DNA work was garbage. Of course they could say they got it from the three trial verdicts not annulled.

I would argue that no matter what the exact specific of the case, the Italian courts want the case to basically go away. They almost have to know that the reality is that Guede almost certainly murdered Meredeth alone and it is even more certain that Ms Knox and Mr Sollecito had nothing to do with the murder. They realize it is was a witch hunt.

They don't want a civil trial which will expose what actually occurred.
 
The only court rulings in effect when M&B ruled was Massei, Nencini and Chieffi. They didn't wipe out the evidence as in C&V would be my guess, afterall M&B said the DNA work was garbage. Of course they could say they got it from the three trial verdicts not annulled.

We really are down the rabbit hole now, aren't we!

Did Chieffi annul all of Hellmann's "rulings"? However, from this seat that highlighted part seems to suffice regardless.
 
Wake me up when it is in the New York Times.

The difficult part is that news outlets, seemingly, have moved on. We are the ones who haven't.

In the weeks before the M/B acquitals in March, Italian news media was filled with Raffaele's story - about judging the case against him by the evidence against him, and forget Amanda. Turns out that the case against Raffaele was the legal-linkage of evidence against Amanda to apply to Raffaele whether it did or not.

That, in short, was the basis of Raffaele's appeal to Section 5, as well as the content of his media presence in those days.

My reading of the media in Italy in the days' past the acquittal itself, as well as since the M/B report is overwhelming acceptance of this... with 3 possible exceptions. None of the exceptions, though, scream that ISC has been hijacked with an unconstitutional hijacking of the law.

There it sits, and it is, apparently, only us still down the rabbit hole.
 
I think I understand perfectly why the Marasca panel is dancing around this "she was there" matter as regards Knox. This is why:

The Chieffi SC panel affirmed the aggravated criminal slander verdict*. The aggravation aspect means that Knox falsely accused Lumumba while knowing that he was innocent. And for Knox to have known Lumumba was innocent, Knox either had to have been with Lumumba elsewhere at the time of the murder (and nobody has ever claimed that of course), or Knox must have been at the murder scene herself.

Remember, the Chieffi panel basically sent the case back to the appeal level with the implicit instruction of: "So you've proven to our satisfaction that Knox was there on account of the criminal slander matter, but Hellmann got it wrong on the murder part, so try again to prove that Knox (and Sollecito) actively participated in the murder and it will all be tickety-boo."

So the Marasca SC panel had a big problem on its hands when it came to the issue of Knox's presence in the cottage at the time of the murder. I very strongly suspect (in fact I am virtually certain) that the Marasca panel considers the entire prosecution case against Knox and Sollecito to be fundamentally flawed, to the degree that it is now - and will forever be - utterly impossible to find even ONE piece of credible, reliable evidence of their participation in the murder (indeed, this is the fundamental driving reason behind the blanket acquittal). At the same time, I also strongly suspect that the Marasca panel considers Knox's criminal slander to be at worst non-aggravated (i.e. she wrongfully accused Lumumba of her own free will, but without knowing for sure that he was innocent), or at best non-existent.

However..... Marasca's panel was stuck with respecting - and ruling in compatibility with - the prior part of the Chieffi ruling which essentially implied that Knox had to have at least been present in the cottage at the time of the murder (in order to know that Lumumba wasn't there, in order to make the criminal slander an aggravated offence). Had Marasca's panel ruled that Knox wasn't ever present at the cottage around the time of the murder, then technically there would have had to have been a big to-do about Knox's aggravated slander conviction, and very possibly a messy retrial.

So what I think has happened is absolutely clear: the Marasca panel has done nothing more than engage in the stupid games of sophistry and sleight-of-hand that are required to preserve the so-called "sanctity" of SC rulings. It did so on the issue of multiple attackers (to preserve the sanctity of the Guede SC report) and it did so on the "Knox was present" issue to align itself with Chieffi and the concept of aggravated slander.

As so many others have written, it's utterly illogical in factual terms (i.e. stripped of all this legal/judicial sophistry claptrap) to conclude that Knox was present at the time of the murder and was not guilty of at least SOME sort of offence directly connected to the murder - at the very least, Knox could/should have been charged with perverting justice and/or protecting a criminal. The only reason for this ridiculous anomaly to have had to have been included by Marasca is purely in order to square his verdict away with the prior verdict of aggravated criminal slander.

In addition, of course, once one strips out these stupid "preserve-the-sanctity-of-the-SC" pieces of sleight-of-hand from the Marasca Report, one is left in absolutely ZERO doubt that the Marasca panel believes that 1) there is/was not one credible, reliable piece of evidence or testimony pointing to Knox's or Sollecito's participation in the murder; 2) there is therefore no doubt that Knox and Sollecito should stand acquitted of these charges (and should be considered innocent in law and in ethics); 3) there is no prospect that any court in history will have sufficient evidence to convict Knox or Sollecito on these charges; 4) the police investigation and the PM's direction of the investigation were grossly flawed, incompetent, incomplete, improper and ill-judged.


* Until Italy is forced to remedy the matter via an ECHR ruling, of course.
 
It has been clear that the ISC is bound by previous rulings. Cheli discussed it long ago:

There is a ghost haunting the solemn corridors of the palace of the Court of Cassation in Rome. It is called, in Italian, “conflitto in giudicato” and it has always frightened the judges of Italy’s highest court.

A “conflitto in giudicato” of the worst type happens when two definitive rulings, that is two different rulings issued by Cassation’s panels to close a case, conflict about the verdict on some element of the same case.

Throughout the years, Cassation judges have always tried to dispel such a haunting presence by trying to ensure that all of their rulings were “aligned” and coherent, as much as possible.

Hence it isn’t particularly surprising that Marasca agrees with Guede’s ruling about the presence of multiple attackers and the burglary being staged: ruling otherwise would have caused a major “conflitto in giudicato”, and probably that was also one of the causes of the annulment of the first acquittal.


Had Marasca merely wished to agree with the ruling they need not have put her there at all. They could have mentioned the sex angle was NOT brought out by Amanda but had been in the press for more than a day. Why would they have needed to say she washed Meredith's blood off? Agreeing with the calunnia would not necessitate her being there.

Also Cheli noted:There is however a difference: while Marasca writes very few words, if any, in upholding the concept of a staged burglary, so much so that one derives it was deemed staged more from the verdict than from the ruling, he expands quite a bit on the reasons for supporting the multiple attackers theory.

Some of those reasons are the usual ones and have been debated for years, and I will not discuss them further now (lack of defensive wounds, just to quote one), but while this could just be a mechanical rehashing of corny arguments, there is also something new that makes me think the judges of the panel, or at least a majority of them, really believed in what they were writing.

Specifically they really believed that Meredith Kercher’s killer was much more “criminally skilled” than petty thief Rudy Guede and, all the more so, than two nerdy students.


At best I think the M&B court wanted to leave mixed messages.They clearly bashed the ILE work on the case.
 
The difficult part is that news outlets, seemingly, have moved on. We are the ones who haven't.

In the weeks before the M/B acquitals in March, Italian news media was filled with Raffaele's story - about judging the case against him by the evidence against him, and forget Amanda. Turns out that the case against Raffaele was the legal-linkage of evidence against Amanda to apply to Raffaele whether it did or not.

That, in short, was the basis of Raffaele's appeal to Section 5, as well as the content of his media presence in those days.

My reading of the media in Italy in the days' past the acquittal itself, as well as since the M/B report is overwhelming acceptance of this... with 3 possible exceptions. None of the exceptions, though, scream that ISC has been hijacked with an unconstitutional hijacking of the law.

There it sits, and it is, apparently, only us still down the rabbit hole.


I realise it's a "cracked record" situation, but: Italy's criminal justice system desperately needs fundamental, categorical, widespread, far-reaching, root-and-branch reform.

It's so manifestly (and grotesquely) unfit for purpose in its current form that it would be laughable if it wasn't so serious for so many of those caught up in its web. It's broken from top to bottom: from the risible, unworkable and unjust notion of lay-judge panels of uneducated members of the public in first-level trials who are quite obviously going to be led and hugely influenced by the professional judges who sit on the same panels(!), through to the hugely flawed, crazily time-consuming and contradictory nature of the two-appeals process (which, while possibly a nice idea in principle, turns out in practice to be unworkable and actually arguably contrary to the notion of a fair trial), through to the way in which the Supreme Court sets up insoluble traps for itself when cases go back and forth through the appeals process.

In addition, the fundamental relationship between judges and PMs has to be completely taken apart and re-assembled properly and justly in the context of adversarial justice, and it appears that everyone in the entire Italian judiciary needs to be sent back to school to be taught what "Innocent until/unless proven guilty", "Burden of guilt rests with the prosecution" and "Proof beyond a reasonable doubt" mean, and they must then be forced to apply these standards constantly, consistently and fairly.

Now of course no criminal justice is perfect - that's an impossibility, and both a theoretical/philosophical and practical level. But some are better than others. In a liberalised modern democracy, all the evidence suggests that a single trial in front of more than ten lay jurors (with at least a very strong majority needing to vote for guilt in order to result in a conviction), where the prosecution and defence are given equal standing in the court, where the entire burden of proof rests with the prosecution, where a presiding judge serves to control the trial, rule on the admissibility of evidence and direct the jury (but who - crucially - does not have any part in judging for guilt or non-guilt), and where the charge must be proven beyond a reasonable doubt in order to find for guilt, is the "least bad" method there is. By a very long way. Appeals (of the kind that are understood by the "normal" adversarial system) should be reserved for specific (and articulated) matters such as potential misapplication of law of the lower court, new information about evidence/testimony presented at trial, new evidence/testimony that may have come to light, or inadequate legal representation of the defendant at trial. It would be nice to have written "motivations" reports for all verdicts, but if the above system is in place, it's virtually impossible, since the triers of fact are lay members of the public. We already have written verdicts in appeal-level hearings in any case.

Italy has a long and inglorious history of resisting legal and constitutional change. It has already had the hugely-flawed inquisitorial system of criminal justice pried from its hands (with difficulty) by the European institutions to which Italy subscribes (and to which it purports to belong as a modern, liberalised democratic polity). All the evidence suggests strongly that Italy has failed to make the transition properly, that there are still really unpleasant and unjust fascist-era laws/rules buried in the statute book, that the justice system is highly (and unjustly) politicised and factionalised, and that there are many within the system (*cough* MIGNINI *cough*) who routinely find their way around any reform laws (and around the very concept of justice and fairness) in order to get what they want out of the system.

All of this needs to change, and soon. It's more and more apparent that the Italian executive and legislature - the ones who should be driving change and reform - cannot do their job properly in this area. It's also clear that significant parts of the Italian judiciary are resistant to reform, and may be actively trying to block reform. And it also appears likely that the Italian public are either ignorant of the whole situation, or that they are sleepily compliant. Lastly, there's the really nasty and disgraceful matter of restriction of freedom of the media - it's very likely that the Italian media are largely prevented (implicitly) from criticising the system either holistically or in respect of particular cases, for fear of being prosecuted themselves.

Rant over. :D:thumbsup:
 
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