Continuation Part 19: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Vixen]

I thought it was the civilian that was into body language. Reporting behavior isn't the problem. Reactionary Reacting to it by forming opinions based on their wealth of experience is what is wrong with it.

They may be very shallow people. So what?

If your roommate had been murdered and the police took you to the scene of the murder and showed you knives one which might have killed the roommate , you think that is noteworthy?

If my roommate was murdered and cops found me at the scene, of course I'd expect them to note my behaviour.

Do you have any source to back up your theory police analysed body language in terms of, 'she touched her nose so we knew she was lying'?

Or does it simply say (objective observation with no value judgement), 'smacked self on forehead'?

 

[LondonJohn]

OK, so what about Raff's fear when Rudy was caught, "He might say strange things about me".

And lo and behold, his prophecy came true!

Would this be part of the 'alt' keyboard syndrome, too?

Hmm let's think. Imagine you're somebody who's been arrested very publicly in a high-profile murder case. Imagine that all sorts of misleading, incorrect and even flat-out lying information is being leaked by corrupt police and prosecutors to the compliant media, and that information is finding its unfiltered way into the international media.

Now imagine that IN FACT YOU HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE MURDER.

Now imagine that the police subsequently arrest another person, while you're still being held in custody suspected of the murder. You will know very well that this other person will know all about you through your treatment in the media. You will also be nigh-on certain that this other person will be rather keen to deflect attention away from himself, and to claim that he had little or nothing to do with the murder.

Can you really not see how it would be logical for you, in that scenario, to be worried that this other person might try to claim to police and prosecutors that they'd already caught the right man (you), and even to be worried that this other person might invent false details to embellish his false claims (e.g. perhaps that he had seen you going into the murder house moments before the murder)?

If you really can't see how entirely rational and (for want of a better word) "normal" it would be for a factually-innocent Sollecito to be worried about whether Guede might make up stories about him (Sollecito) in order to try to switch the police/PM's attention away from Guede and back towards Sollecito, then your mind is even more closed than had been feared.

 

[acbytesla]

As they say ignorance is bliss. You spew out so much misinformation it cracks me up.

Aren't you testy today?

What about what I just said was ignorant? In fact, even you must agree that it was spot on. Were you an English teacher in your former life? Is that why this bothers you so much?

Personally, maybe because I try and not take life too seriously and believe humor makes life bearable is the reason I'm not a picky old man. Old man maybe, but not picky.

 

[LondonJohn]

If my roommate was murdered and cops found me at the scene, of course I'd expect them to note my behaviour.

Do you have any source to back up your theory police analysed body language in terms of, 'she touched her nose so we knew she was lying'?

Or does it simply say (objective observation with no value judgement), 'smacked self on forehead'?

13. Both Mignini and Zugarini described having had impression that #amandaknox was feeling “relieved of a burden” after accusing Lumumba.

Are you not reading?

 

[Vixen]

Perhaps we have a slightly different opinion here. I think the police believe the confessions fully. When they get someone to admit things, they like most PGP, believe it must be true.

There's a context for everything. ATT Raff had told cops Amanda had asked him to lie for her and that he withdrew her alibi for between 2045 and 0100.

Following this event Amanda was shocked when police showed her her reply to Patrick's text, for she had deleted it.

It was in this context Amanda confessed to being at the murder and accused Patrick of being the murderer and the rapist.


So the police are supposed to ignore it, when their training requires them to make a note of it.

Their training did kick in and they immediately terminated the interview, as confirmed by Amanda. She then insisted in issuing the claims again in writing in her own private time and gave it to Ficcara as "a present".

What is the problem?

When will Amanda take responsibility for her own actions?

 

[Vixen]

Vocabulary.com
A reactionary is someone reacting (in horror) to what most of the world considers to be progress. No one describes themselves as reactionary––you will hear it more often as a condemnation, as in "I cannot support the reactionary policy of mandatory military service for 18-year-olds."

I meant essentially that you ferreted out the two words "cocky and arrogant" when I described cops and reacted to that as opposed to the rest of what I said. Anything that I could have said which could be construed as a slight against authority must be quickly put down.

It was if I was Father Merrin sprinkling holy water on 12 year old Regan.

<fx theme tune Tubular Bells> Doesn't that imply I was happy with the rest of your post?

 

[LondonJohn]

There's a context for everything. ATT Raff had told cops Amanda had asked him to lie for her and that he withdrew her alibi for between 2045 and 0100.

Following this event Amanda was shocked when police showed her her reply to Patrick's text, for she had deleted it.

It was in this context Amanda confessed to being at the murder and accused Patrick of being the murderer and the rapist.


So the police are supposed to ignore it, when their training requires them to make a note of it.

Their training did kick in and they immediately terminated the interview, as confirmed by Amanda. She then insisted in issuing the claims again in writing in her own private time and gave it to Ficcara as "a present".

What is the problem?

When will Amanda take responsibility for her own actions?

No, it was in the context of the police shouting at her that:

1) they knew Lumumba was the killer;
2) they knew (and had proof) that Knox was present at the time of the murder;
3) they would enact far, far greater punishment upon Knox unless she "remembered" the above;
4) they knew Knox was suppressing her memory of events owing to a psychological condition (as supported and exampled by the "interpreter")

that Knox "confessed" to being present and "accused" Lumumba of being the killer.


At least I know what one of my New Year's resolutions will be tomorrow. And I intend to stick to it religiously

 

[Vixen]

Huh? What the hell are you talking about? And the last thing you are is broad minded and adaptable to change.



I'm surprised to hear you say that since the Italian cops did exactly that to Amanda.

These cops had to witness the brutal murder. They know the perp is likely to be an unfeeling psycho. Perhaps you'd like to suggest how they go about their duties?

Perhaps they should sack all the tough hard guys and employ nursery nannies instead, in case psycho killer gets upset and accidentally blurts out incriminating stuff.

 

[acbytesla]

<fx theme tune Tubular Bells> Doesn't that imply I was happy with the rest of your post?

Not really. It shows you ignored the salient part of my post and focused only what you vehemently disagreed with How would I know what you thought about the rest of my my post? What is it when we assume?

It does show that defending authority is a hot button issue with you.

 

[Grinder]

OK, so what about Raff's fear when Rudy was caught, "He might say strange things about me".

And lo and behold, his prophecy came true!

Would this be part of the 'alt' keyboard syndrome, too?

If you can accept for a moment he is innocent, perhaps you will be able to understand his mental state. The police are saying things he knows are false. They find evidence on a knife he knows can't be true. They say his shoes left bloody prints which he knows is false. The media is reporting the wildest theories attributed to the authorities. Then they come up with a new suspect but rather than releasing Amanda and himself they add Rudi to the mix. He could wonder reasonably what the authorities might now allege.

 

[Vixen]

What do you call this then?

13. Both Mignini and Zugarini described having had impression that #amandaknox was feeling “relieved of a burden” after accusing Lumumba.

Is that "observing behaviour" or is it some sort of attempt to read Knox's mind?

Are your "arguments" really this ignorant, or are you very carefully being selective about what you choose to see and what you choose to be blind to...?

Intellectual dishonesty.

I think it's fair to record a person underwent a significant mood change.

For example, the recent Becky Watts chainsaw murder. Her step brother, after admitting he killed her, suddenly started sobbing heavily.

It's fair comment to put it in police notes for later testimony.

In Amanda's case, from being highly upset to suddenly being lighthearted is surely noteworthy.

 

[acbytesla]

These cops had to witness the brutal murder. They know the perp is likely to be an unfeeling psycho. Perhaps you'd like to suggest how they go about their duties?

Perhaps they should sack all the tough hard guys and employ nursery nannies instead, in case psycho killer gets upset and accidentally blurts out incriminating stuff.

Thanks for making my point.

 

[Vixen]

No, it was in the context of the police shouting at her that:

1) they knew Lumumba was the killer;
2) they knew (and had proof) that Knox was present at the time of the murder;
3) they would enact far, far greater punishment upon Knox unless she "remembered" the above;
4) they knew Knox was suppressing her memory of events owing to a psychological condition (as supported and exampled by the "interpreter")

that Knox "confessed" to being present and "accused" Lumumba of being the killer.


At least I know what one of my New Year's resolutions will be tomorrow. And I intend to stick to it religiously

It shows Italian police interview techniques are effective.

 

[Grinder]

There's a context for everything. ATT Raff had told cops Amanda had asked him to lie for her and that he withdrew her alibi for between 2045 and 0100.

Following this event Amanda was shocked when police showed her her reply to Patrick's text, for she had deleted it.

It was in this context Amanda confessed to being at the murder and accused Patrick of being the murderer and the rapist.


So the police are supposed to ignore it, when their training requires them to make a note of it.

Their training did kick in and they immediately terminated the interview, as confirmed by Amanda. She then insisted in issuing the claims again in writing in her own private time and gave it to Ficcara as "a present".

What is the problem?

When will Amanda take responsibility for her own actions?

The cops say Amanda was not aware of what Raf was saying. As the evidence was processed and Rudi's DNA, palm print and bloody shoe prints were linked to him they should have rethought what they had. They should have realized that they had squeezed falsehoods out of both kids.

The "gift" clearly stated her statements from the night before were at best vague and worst totally untrue. Go read them.

 

[Planigale]

From: http://health.howstuffworks.com/human-body/systems/respiratory/lung3.htm



Clear now?

As ever nothing is that clear. Yes there are autonomic afferents that have input to the breathing centres in the brain; this is ventilatory drive. But breathing the actual pumping air in and out that you said was controlled by the 'autonomous nervous system' is controlled by the peripheral nervous system.

 

[Numbers]

deleted

 

[Matthew Best]

Raff has the chess player mind. He precluded the cops on several occasions,

Did he really? Ha ha ha ha ha ha!!

 

[Numbers]

It shows Italian police interview techniques are effective.

There is an outline of US Judge Alex Kozinski's article about reforms needed in the US justice system at:

http://wrongfulconvictionsblog.org/...i-why-the-us-justice-system-really-isnt-just/

and the above site has a link to Judge Kozinski's article. Some of the items in that article are relevant to this case. Here are some excerpts:

6. Confessions are infallible because innocent people never confess. {This is a false belief or myth.}

We now know that this is not true. Innocent people do confess with surprising regularity. Harsh interrogation tactics, a variant of Stockholm syndrome, the desire to end the ordeal, emotional and financial exhaustion, family considerations and the youth or feeble-mindedness of the suspect can result in remarkably detailed confessions that are later shown to be utterly false.

10. Police are objective in their investigations. {This is a false belief or myth.}

In many ways, this is the bedrock assumption of our criminal justice process. Police investigators have vast discretion about what leads to pursue, which witness to interview, what forensic tests to conduct and countless other aspects of the investigation. Police also have a unique opportunity to manufacture or destroy evidence, influence witnesses, extract confessions and otherwise direct the investigation so as to stack the deck against people they believe should be convicted. And not just small-town police in Podunk or Timbuktu. Just the other day, "(t)he Justice Department and FBI [] formally acknowledged that nearly every examiner in an elite FBI forensic unit gave flawed testimony in almost all [of the 268] trials in which they offered evidence against criminal defendants over more than a two-decade period before 2000."....

There are countless documented cases of where innocent people have spent decades behind bars because the police manipulated or concealed evidence....

In his article, Judge Kozinski provided examples in support of each of his statements, including those about false confession and police misconduct.

It would be wrong to believe that Italian police in this case were exempt from committing misconduct to advance their goal of closing the case, or that they would not have coerced a false statement. Italian procedural law, CPP Articles 64.2 and 188, specifically forbids using methods or techniques which can influence the freedom of self-determination or alter the ability to recall and evaluate the facts. Yet, it is clear that Amanda Knox gave a false statement during her Nov. 5/6 interrogation, which she withdrew in her Memoriales of Nov. 6 and 7, as a result of the Italian police using such illegal methods.

 

[Grinder]

There is an outline of US Judge Alex Kozinski's article about reforms needed in the US justice system at:

http://wrongfulconvictionsblog.org/...i-why-the-us-justice-system-really-isnt-just/

In his article, Judge Kozinski provided examples in support of each of his statements, including those about false confession and police misconduct.

What is baffling is the resistance the PGP folks have to seeing that interrogations have resulted in false confessions. When reading on the other side they just hate the innocence projects, not just some but all. The more celebrated the more they hate it.

I do wonder what the underlying difference there is between people that see the authorities often make mistakes and are not universally virtuous.

 

[Desert Fox]

13. Both Mignini and Zugarini described having had impression that #amandaknox was feeling “relieved of a burden” after accusing Lumumba.

Are you not reading?

I believe that Peter Reilly stated to the cops something similar and it is believed by most to be a false confession.