IndoctriNATION movie

[Slowvehicle]

It doesn't help to rely on evidence, because the evidence itself is subject to the same judgements and beliefs as anything else. I sincerely doubt that a Christian apologist couldn't come up with evidences they find convincing.

But returning to the matter of "choosing to believe" - I should like to offer a method and see if you agree.

Suppose we agree that under some set of circumstances it is very likely a person would come to believe in Jesus as the Son of God. Now, whatever those circumstances might be, we can pin them down, process-wise into a sort of recipe. (I have one in mind, but I'll forgo it for now.)

If you (or I) were aware that some process like that existed - even if we don't know the particulars - we might consider undergoing it. When we do so, we can make a choice: either submit to this process or avoid it. In that sense at least, by choosing to participate or not, we can choose to believe.

You appear to have missed this bit:

I am not a psychologist (although I have played with one behind the TV, in my time), but some people do, in fact, develop imaginary friends that are not there.

If someone were to claim that it had been "revealed" to them that the sky was, in fact, green, I would still maintain, given the evidence, that the sky was blue.

I reject the "If only you believed as I do, you would come to see why you should believe as I do" gambit.

If there were, in fact, some almighty creative 'god' that did, in fact, specifically create me, and did, in fact, know me in my mother's womb; it would, in fact, know what kind of evidence would cause me to believe in it. The fact that such evidence has not been forthcoming in more than a half-century of indoctrination and searching indicates one of two things: either such a being does not exist, or, such a being exists and is intentionally withholding the evidence it created me to need. Such a being would be, by any definition of the word, an immoral monster.

Despite any sophistry, the lack of belief in something for which there is no evidence is not the choice not to believe.

 

[Shalamar]

You have shared enough of your attitude towards, for example, people who happen to be gay (or divorced, or left leaning) for it to be clear that your faith has not made you a loving person.

Don't forget "leftists". His posts on here in the politics forum make it clear that he is not a loving person. So much vile hate he's directed towards those who do not follow his beliefs.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Yes, because to a leftist one has to agree with the lifestyle to be truly loving, you cannot understand loving the person, not certain decisions they make.

I don't suppose you'll be supporting this with, oh, I don't know, evidence?

I, for one, don't care who you "love"; I care who you try to enforce the tenets of your own superstition against. As has been said: if your 'god' forbids homosexuality to you, don't do homosexual acts. The strictures you believe your 'god' imposes upon you do not apply to anyone else, other than by their own choice; in the same way, you are not subject to anyone else's ideas about the strictures of their 'god'.

Another verse taken OUT of context. Educate yourself on why Jesus said this to who he was talking to.

It is good you have your apologia to comfort you.

 

[The Big Dog]

I could no more choose to believe in the Christian God than I could choose to believe that the sky is green.

I've seen "green skies" lots of times! That is when you need to pray, because it is going to storm like hell.

 

[Magrat]

I've seen "green skies" lots of times! That is when you need to pray, because it is going to storm like hell.

Up here it's yellow, not green, before a storm

 

[logger]

Because your irrational fear of eternal torture has caused you to abandon rational thought.

No, your fear of eternal torture has caused you to run from it, maybe it will just go away.

 

[Magrat]

No your fear of eternal torture has caused you to run from it, maybe it will just go away.

I can't tell if you honestly believe everyone who does not believe exactly as you is "running in fear from eternal torture" (also, not what the Bible says) or if you have run out of argument.

 

[logger]

Romans 10:9-10

Jesus says to give up worldly goods to follow him. You yourself said you have a good life "according to the world's opinion" because of following Jesus. It appears to me you have misunderstood the Bible. This is what I have referred to as a prosperity gospel. You have claimed you have rewards here in earth from believing in Jesus. That's the literal opposition of what the Bible teaches.

Rogue I'm here to straighten out your misunderstandings of the Bible.

Pixel brought up Luke 18:21-23. This is about the rich young ruler, Jesus knew he loved his wealth more than him. Anyone who gives up all to do missionary work or whatever the lord would have them do is a great thing, it isn't for all to do. Anyone handling the word accurately would understand that. Ask your pastor about it Rogue, tell him what you're posting here.

I've have claimed I have Blessings here on Earth much more than wealth could give, once again you're lying.

 

[logger]

If you love a person you do not expect them to make decisions that will condemn them to a life of misery and loneliness.

Really? People you love haven't made terrible decisions?

No-one who embraces a faith which requires them to accept the vile bigotry of the OT is likely to become a more loving person.

Okay

Very little Jesus said is IN context today, that's the point I was making. Jesus was advocating a lifestyle which he expected to be practised by a small minority of people for a limited time. He was the guy who stands on street corners telling passers by to repent now because the day of judgement is at hand. It's hardly surprising that his instructions for that lifestyle can't be sensibly applied to long lives in large complex societies.

No you're wrong again. Jesus said we would not know the time.

 

[logger]

I can't tell if you honestly believe everyone who does not believe exactly as you is "running in fear from eternal torture" (also, not what the Bible says) or if you have run out of argument.

Rogue you have been the one wrong on all accounts, I've given you verses to prove it. You're the one who calls himself/herself a Christian and yet you don't even believe the main tenets of Christianity, you're not what you claim to be.

 

[logger]

Don't forget "leftists". His posts on here in the politics forum make it clear that he is not a loving person. So much vile hate he's directed towards those who do not follow his beliefs.

Lol

Because I passionately disagree with the rot gut ideology of liberalism, I not a loving person?

What foolish post that is completely void of any critical thought. More proof that if you disagree with liberals, you're just a hater. Shalamar you never have any kind of substantive argument, if you could get your emotions out of these arguments, it would seriously help you.

 

[logger]

It is good you have your apologia to comfort you.

Its good you have your atheism to comfort you.

 

[sackett]

Rogue you have been the one wrong on all accounts, I've given you verses to prove it. You're the one who calls himself/herself a Christian and yet you don't even believe the main tenets of Christianity, you're not what you claim to be.

DOC, is that you?

 

[Magrat]

Rogue you have been the one wrong on all accounts, I've given you verses to prove it. You're the one who calls himself/herself a Christian and yet you don't even believe the main tenets of Christianity, you're not what you claim to be.

 

[Pixel42]

Really? People you love haven't made terrible decisions?

I don't advise them to make decisions which condemn them to a life of misery and loneliness because an old book says they're damned if they don't. There isn't so much love in the world that we can afford to actively try to prevent some of it.

No you're wrong again. Jesus said we would not know the time.

He said it would happen within the lifetime of his disciples. And I know how you'll try to explain away his clear, plain words, so don't bother. That's how those hearing his words interpreted them, If that wasn't what he meant he would have corrected their understanding.

 

[Slowvehicle]

<snip for focus>
No you're wrong again. Jesus said we would not know the time.

Actually, your "Jesus" is said to be said to have said that some of the people he was said to be said to be addressing would still be alive when he returned.

Odd that he would get a detail like that wrong...

(Prediction: apologia and lexical equivocation in 3...2...)

ETA: ninja'ed, capably as usual, by Pixel 42.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Lol

Because I passionately disagree with the rot gut ideology of liberalism, I not a loving person?

What foolish post that is completely void of any critical thought. More proof that if you disagree with liberals, you're just a hater. Shalamar you never have any kind of substantive argument, if you could get your emotions out of these arguments, it would seriously help you.

Funny how you use "liberal" as a content-free swear word, as some (for instance) used to use the word, "faggot". What is (in your estimation) a "liberal"? What is a "radical"? Which word would have described an anti-Roman apocalyptic agitator in the 1st Century C.E, had he existed?

 

[logger]

I don't advise them to make decisions which condemn them to a life of misery and loneliness because an old book says they're damned if they don't. There isn't so much love in the world that we can afford to actively try to prevent some of it.

You must not know any Christians either, they usually have true joy.

He said it would happen within the lifetime of his disciples. And I know how you'll try to explain away his clear, plain words, so don't bother. That's how those hearing his words interpreted them, If that wasn't what he meant he would have corrected their understanding.

I'm not sure which verse you're talking about, but the disciples did see him again after his crucifixion.

I would also be doing a disservice to Christ if I didn't explain your misunderstandings, even though many interpret Bible text wrong.

 

[Slowvehicle]

Its good you have your atheism to comfort you.

Sweetie:

When you alter a post of mine to avoid facing the issue presented, have the honesty and decency to indicate that you have so done.

In your haste to sidestep having to define "leftist" as a meaningful symbol, you must have just missed this bit:

I don't suppose you'll be supporting this [your unsupported claim about "leftists" having to "agree" with a "lifestyle"] with, oh, I don't know, evidence?

I, for one, don't care who you "love"; I care who you try to enforce the tenets of your own superstition against. As has been said: if your 'god' forbids homosexuality to you, don't do homosexual acts. The strictures you believe your 'god' imposes upon you do not apply to anyone else, other than by their own choice; in the same way, you are not subject to anyone else's ideas about the strictures of their 'god'.

Further, I don't need imaginary comfort; real life does perfectly well.

But thank you for your kind words, so redolent of the tenets of your "christ".

 

[Magrat]

Funny how you use "liberal" as a content-free swear word, as some (for instance) used to use the word, "faggot". What is (in your estimation) a "liberal"? What is a "radical"? Which word would have described an anti-Roman apocalyptic agitator in the 1st Century C.E, had he existed?

This is an excellent point. There is no doubt Jesus was a liberal, radical freedom fighter.

Matthew 22:36-40 Jesus said to love God and love your neighbor. He said everything else was second. However, logger has chosen to mark me as the apostate and himself (homophobic, judgemental, etc...) as the True Christian. While I am certain he can apologize his way out of that scripture I disagree and I believe any further debate with him is likely to be futile.