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Continuation Part 19: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Grinder sometimes confuses me, and I'm new to this thread and this case, but I have no difficulty figuring out he's referring to the two innocent young people whose lives were needlessly damaged by a witch hunt. The third one can hang, for all I care.

You mean, also the woman who served trhee years for obstructing justice, who was found guilty of doing so in order to cover up for the "one" that "can hang", who was inside Meredith's house when she was killed by multiple perpetrators, and who washed her hands from the victim's blood?
And the man who was arrested while illegally carrying a knife inside the police HQ, who admitted having told a bunch of lies because the woman induced him to do so, claimed he changed his version three times in a week, withdrew the woman's alibi and claimed she was not with him, who had his DNA on a bra clasp and a bare footprints in bloods matching him (not matching Guede), who refused to answer questions and was called 8 times "highly suspicious" in a SC ruling?
 
Sorry, Chieffi is definitive. There is really no doubt about this.

Believe what you want if it makes you happy. Chieffi's ruling is moot and irrelevant now. Nothing can change the fact that the Marasca ruling is final.
 
You mean, also the woman who served trhee years for obstructing justice, who was found guilty of doing so in order to cover up for the "one" that "can hang", who was inside Meredith's house when she was killed by multiple perpetrators, and who washed her hands from the victim's blood?
And the man who was arrested while illegally carrying a knife inside the police HQ, who admitted having told a bunch of lies because the woman induced him to do so, claimed he changed his version three times in a week, withdrew the woman's alibi and claimed she was not with him, who had his DNA on a bra clasp and a bare footprints in bloods matching him (not matching Guede), who refused to answer questions and was called 8 times "highly suspicious" in a SC ruling?

Amanda covers for Rudy but Raff doesn't cover for Amanda and neither are covered by Rudy. This is the worst triangle ever.

Your second sentence is a good effort but did you ever consider the simplicity of the real crime?

A wall climbing rock tossing window breaking clothes throwing knife carrying burglar is seen on CCTV alone by the cottage before the students know their evening is free. Later that evening Meredith is stabbed to death and sexually assaulted. Her body contains the DNA of the burglar, the burglar's bloody handprint is next to her body which is surrounded by 8 of his bloody footprints, plus an additional 8 in the hallway, with an apparent break-in involving wall climbing, rock tossing, window breaking and clothes throwing.

Hmm I wonder what happened. If we discuss the case for another 8 years we may finally get to the bottom of it.
 
Machiavelli said:
Sorry, Chieffi is definitive. There is really no doubt about this.
Believe what you want if it makes you happy. Chieffi's ruling is moot and irrelevant now. Nothing can change the fact that the Marasca ruling is final.

The Chieffi court ruled definitively, it's true. They definitively remanded the case and three items to the Florence appeals' level court. They then adjourned and left the resolution of the case to the subsequent courts.

The Marasca court also ruled defintively. They definitively acquitted and ended the case.

Machiavelli wants Hellmann, Zanetti, Conti, Vecchiotti, and perhaps now even Andrea Vogt charged with crimes. No one has yet ruled definitely on those accusations.

Machiavelli is entitled to his opinions.
 
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I see most hearing transcripts from preliminary hearing are still not published on themurderofmeredithkercher.com .
The Stefanoni hearing of Oct. 4. 2008 is there (and you cen read Bongiorno's talking, as well as Sollecito's defence expert Pascali).

As for Kokomani hearing, for example, see this news article:

https://wildgreta.wordpress.com/2008/09/16/meredith-prossima-udienza-26-settembre-respinte-eccezioni-difesa-sollecito-tutte-le-dichiarazioni-degli-avvocati/



The highlighted part explain how it works: the witness (Kokomani) can be interrogated by the defences of the other two suspects as well (insofar as he may bring incriminating evidence against them).
The other two witnesses in the same hearing, instead, they cannot be interrogated by AK & RS defences, only by Guede's defence, by the prosecutor and by the judge (since they may only incriminate Guede).

Therefore, all defences have a right to cross-examine those witnesses that are potentially incriminating against them.
The other defences may not "incriminate" Guede. They can cross-question to defend themselves from their preliminary hearing charges, but they cannot cross-question just to "incriminate" Guede in his short-track trial.

So if your defence is that Guede did it, then you can not advance that defence? This would seem unfair.

I believe you are correct, Sollecito and Knox were represented at the fast track trial of Guede which was also their preliminary hearing. However as you accept there were limitations on the defence case. The nature of the fast track trial was that Guede accepted prosecution evidence as given and gave up the right to challenge it. The defence were limited in there right to challenge evidence by the court as you have said. It thus seems inappropriate that the conclusions of a court where Sollecito and Knox had limited rights of challenge and cross examination can be incorporated as judicial fact subsequently. Their trial should have been effectively 'de novo'. The preliminary trial only functioning like a Grand Jury or magistrates court hearing to remand the defendants to trial, but not making any binding ruling on the subsequent trial.
 
The Chieffi court ruled definitively, it's true. They definitively remanded the case and three items to the Florence appeals' level court. They then adjourned and left the resolution of the case to the subsequent courts.

The Marasca court also ruled defintively. They definitively acquitted and ended the case.

Machiavelli wants Hellmann, Zanetti, Conti, Vecchiotti, and perhaps now even Andrea Vogt charged with crimes. No one has yet ruled definitely on those accusations.

Machiavelli is entitled to his opinions.

In a bizarre way I feel bad for Machiavelli. It's over and he's truly lost. Time for him to channel that big brain on something more productive. It's clear that he is still in denial. I wonder although doubt if maybe a few years down the road he realizes that he was on the wrong side? Oh well life goes on.

May the force be with you all.
 
Look, I happen to look up this discussion and I found myself quoted in last post.
Yes, indeed AK/RS were represented throughpout the whole Guede trial, including the right to cross-examine witnesses. In fact they did so.

(obviously, they don't have a right to cross-examine Guede himself without his consent, since Guede was a defendant, and thus had a right to refuse to answer any question, and to lie).

A witness who does not want to testify is issue a subpoena and admitted as a hostile witness.....in most countries. A witness given the privilege to lie is anathema to anything remotely resembling due process. Shocking judgements appear in countries as above. It's no wonder thatthe lower courts floundered so badly and got it all wrong.
 
No, I do not.
But I say that 1 expert (or even a non-expert) can trump other 7 experts' opinions, and it is also quite normal that this happens.
And it is not the experts, but the judges those who shall decide.

I don't know why the pro-Knox bring up this "number" argument about trial exrts and fail to realize how nonsense this is.

In the Aldrovandi case, there judge sided with the opinion of 1 expert alone against 8. Because it was the convincing one. This is how it works.
It's not the number. It's whether they are able to convince you.


You are not in a position for calling Guede's trial a "hurried rush to judgement". It was a trial.
And it's not a fait accompli. It is a circumstantial element. It can be challenged and assessed like any element.



I know what a Grand Jury is. What you seem to fail to understand, is why I point out that such preliminary judgement is essentially unfair. A preliminary judgement itself has always zero effect on the actual trial, when the actual trial takes place. But this doesn't change the issue of its essence of being unfair. The way how the GJ decides whether a triall with take place or no, is an unfair procedure. Because it takes place without representatives and without court discussion. Itself it is a barrage that prevents the victim's (or parties) or suspect's direct access to a "right to a fair trial".

This is a well recognised issue. A convincing 'expert' can convince courts of of their opinion even where it lacks scientific credence. There are many cases in the US and UK system, fire analysis has been a particular case, Robbins footprint analysis evidence is another example, some elements of fingerprint analysis have been more art then science. Certainly in the UK great care has been taken to ensure judges are taught how to assess scientific evidence, and experts are required to reference their opinions to the literature or present experimental evidence to support their opinions.

However in an adversarial system, where the court has to rule BARD, the existence of a body of contrary opinion 7 vs 1, should raise reasonable doubt. If there is reasonable doubt that multiple persons committed the crime, even if the judges think this is the most likely scenario, then this should lead to a finding of not guilty. The judges have to be able to dismiss the contrary opinion as extremely unlikely and the minority opinion as overwhelmingly certain to proceed. The court provided no reasoning for preferring the minority opinion.
 
So if your defence is that Guede did it, then you can not advance that defence? This would seem unfair.

I believe you are correct, Sollecito and Knox were represented at the fast track trial of Guede which was also their preliminary hearing. However as you accept there were limitations on the defence case. The nature of the fast track trial was that Guede accepted prosecution evidence as given and gave up the right to challenge it. The defence were limited in there right to challenge evidence by the court as you have said. It thus seems inappropriate that the conclusions of a court where Sollecito and Knox had limited rights of challenge and cross examination can be incorporated as judicial fact subsequently. Their trial should have been effectively 'de novo'. The preliminary trial only functioning like a Grand Jury or magistrates court hearing to remand the defendants to trial, but not making any binding ruling on the subsequent trial.


Exactly this.

IMO, it's so blindingly clear to anyone with any modicum of intellect and perspicacity that a trial whose sole aim was to determine whether or not Guede was judicially guilty of the crimes with which he was charged can have any form of binding impact upon the trial process of anyone else. Any year-1 student of jurisprudence would laugh at the very idea that this should constitute justice.

Hellmann makes this very point explicitly in his judgment, and it's manifestly clear (IMO) that the Marasca SC panel dances uncomfortably round this issue - and since the Marasca ruling in effect contradicts findings of fact from the previous K/S SC ruling and from the Guede SC ruling, it's clear that a) there's something fundamentally smelly and unfit-for-purpose about this aspect of Italian criminal justice (along with many, many other aspects), and b) the Marasca SC panel knows this full well.
 
Believe what you want if it makes you happy. Chieffi's ruling is moot and irrelevant now. Nothing can change the fact that the Marasca ruling is final.

According to the Penal Proceure Code, art. 628, all points of law decided by Chieffi are final, and others SC panels cannot overturn them.
This includes the finding that Hellmann's citation of art. 111, and his reasoning about the use of Guede's verdict, are wrong arguments, while Chieffi points out that Guede's verdict, which establishes that he was not holding the murder weapon, is to be used as circumstantial element against AK/RS.

Let's not forget that, btw, Marasca ruling itself states as a proven fact that there were multiple perpetrators.
 
while Chieffi points out that Guede's verdict, which establishes that he was not holding the murder weapon, is to be used as circumstantial element against AK/RS.
.

How do they know that? What if Amanda handed Guede her kitchen knife and said "kill her for me or I shan't cryptically write about you as the most beautiful black man I've ever seen."

They don't know it didn't happen that way, and it's possible therefore probable.
 
This is a well recognised issue. A convincing 'expert' can convince courts of of their opinion even where it lacks scientific credence. There are many cases in the US and UK system, fire analysis has been a particular case, Robbins footprint analysis evidence is another example, some elements of fingerprint analysis have been more art then science. Certainly in the UK great care has been taken to ensure judges are taught how to assess scientific evidence, and experts are required to reference their opinions to the literature or present experimental evidence to support their opinions.

However in an adversarial system, where the court has to rule BARD, the existence of a body of contrary opinion 7 vs 1, should raise reasonable doubt. If there is reasonable doubt that multiple persons committed the crime, even if the judges think this is the most likely scenario, then this should lead to a finding of not guilty. The judges have to be able to dismiss the contrary opinion as extremely unlikely and the minority opinion as overwhelmingly certain to proceed. The court provided no reasoning for preferring the minority opinion.

I disagree, quite completely.
On the first part, it is true that experts could theoretically convince without merits, but there is no other way than convincing through trial debate. The "number" of expert witnesses itself cannot be an argument, and their personal knowledge cannot be an argument either, since in the Italian system defence experts have de facto a right to lie. Other experts can also be non-neutral for other reasons.
So the question of assessing the credibility arguments directly is the only way.

I disagree so, on the theory that the existence of a body of contrary opinion itself should raise reasonable doubt.
I also disagree with the idea that "reasonable doubt" could be raised on single pieces of evidence, so it cannot be just "raised" as focused on a scientific finding.
In my opinion, the courts provided meaningful arguments for dismissing the theory of single perpetrators and for pointing to the multiple perpetrators scenario as a factual finding. They could have said even some more, in my opinion, but they did provide arguments.
However the reason why I can see multiple perpetrators as a factual finding and as important evidence, does not derive from judges reasonings, but it is basically because the analysis of physical evidence managed to convince me of a scenario rather than another, so it's not just about what the judges found convincing, it is about what arguments and theories I found convincing (aka consistent with findings) versus unconvincing. It's because I can see some scenarios as logical, corroborated by physical details, in contrast with others that are manifestly illogical and inconsistent.
 
(...)
Hellmann makes this very point explicitly in his judgment, and it's manifestly clear (IMO) that the Marasca SC panel dances uncomfortably round this issue - and since the Marasca ruling in effect contradicts findings of fact from the previous K/S SC ruling and from the Guede SC ruling, it's clear that a) there's something fundamentally smelly and unfit-for-purpose about this aspect of Italian criminal justice (along with many, many other aspects), and b) the Marasca SC panel knows this full well.

Don't know where you see Marasca "dancing unconfortably", but we can see Bruno/Marasca seemingly emphasize they are quite convinced that there are multiple perpetrators.
B/M also emphasizes that Knox falsely accused Lumumba in order to conceal the presence of Guede, not because of psychological factors nor because of coercion, B/M seem to believe that from what they write.
 
So if your defence is that Guede did it, then you can not advance that defence? This would seem unfair.

I believe you are correct, Sollecito and Knox were represented at the fast track trial of Guede which was also their preliminary hearing. However as you accept there were limitations on the defence case. The nature of the fast track trial was that Guede accepted prosecution evidence as given and gave up the right to challenge it. The defence were limited in there right to challenge evidence by the court as you have said. It thus seems inappropriate that the conclusions of a court where Sollecito and Knox had limited rights of challenge and cross examination can be incorporated as judicial fact subsequently. Their trial should have been effectively 'de novo'. The preliminary trial only functioning like a Grand Jury or magistrates court hearing to remand the defendants to trial, but not making any binding ruling on the subsequent trial.

The nature of the limitations the defences of AK/RS were subject to, is no different from the limitation of any other defendant.
In the Italian system, a defendant has a right to lie, but may only defend himself, not put someone else on trial.
Such limitation applies to Guede's defence as well.
I tried to point out that this is an important principle, also under other aspects.
The defences of AK & RS were not limited in their rights to challenge the evidence against them. They could even call witnesses to bring evidence against Guede, and in fact they did so, in fact they summoned Christian Tramontano and they can interrogate those witnesses. The only ting they cannot do, is interrogate the prosecution witnesses, those who are called by the prosecution to testify against Guede alone. The AK/RS defences cannot be a party directly involved in the prosecution of Guede.

The Preliminary Hearing does function somehow as a Grand Jury, and does not influence the outcome of the subsequent trial.
However that was not only a preliminary hearing; the trial was also valid as the Guede trial, and as such, was subjected to subsequent challenges and checks from other courts, and also was picked up by another prosecution. This means that in such trial Guede did not accept the prosecution evidence as it was, and did not give up his right to challenge it. Guede only agreed to do this on a more limited set of evidence, a smaller number of witnesses.
There is a limitation inherent in short trials, this is obvious, otherwise they wouldn't be "short". The nature of short track trial is that of a compromise between the principle of completeness and the pragmatic principle of avoiding waste of money and time. So it has a nature of being limited by this compromise, cannot maximize completeness and exhaustivity. But you also should not consider it as irrelevant or inappropriate, since it has the legal status of a trial, it is a fair procedure with an actual defendant, and its outcome has some relevance.
After the trial has been checked by further magistrates and judges, its outcome is acknowledged to be final, since it was a history happening, it is also usable as element of circumstantial evidence to be assessed together with the other elements. All considerations about how convincing the scenario was and the arguments etc. can be still done, but the piece of evidence is admissible.
The conclusions of such trial are not "incorporated" as "facts", but they also cannot be dismissed as if they didn't exist. So jurisprudence says. They are a piece of circumstantial evidence which is to be considered together with the others.

By now, the presenting judicial fingdings from other trials as circumstantial evidence is not something that violates the HR Convention. You may not like this aspect of the system. But the system is soverign and legitimate. So, it's up to those who don't like it to decide not to live under the Italian jurisdiction.
 
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